Silva vs. Sonnen II

Training
61

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

Silva probably has the best take down defense of anyone in MMA[/quote]

Sorry Sifu, not even close.[/quote]

Off hand who has the best takedown defense?

I am thinking GSP currently.

RE: Lombard

I am very impressed with him. However he has not faced the competition Silva has, who basically wrecked the 185 division. Lombards 32 wins have not been against anything close to that level of competition in MMA. His only showings in a “major” promotion were 6 years ago in Pride, where he lost twice. Granted he has gotten much, much better since. On the other hand his Judo pedigre is excellent. If he doesn’t make it to the UFC soon, I think he is going be done do to age/injury.

RE: Franklin
I don’t think it is fair to say Franklin was/is a bad fighter. He was a legit champion in MMA who has managed to beat or go the distance with some of the best. If he was shit, Hendo would have taken him out. That didn’t happen. He is 28-6 against some very stiff competition.

Regards,

Robert A

62

[quote]Sifu wrote:

In martial arts, proper elbow positioning is crucial to just about any upper body movement. Good fighters who come from a striking background know to keep the elbows down and in close to protect the abdomen. They also learn not to let the humerous internally rotate, instead they externally rotate enough to align the elbow directly behind the fist. Silva does this.

[/quote]

this point i believe is debatable. yes if your throwing straight punches etc but this doesnt really apply to alot of power punches or even just punches in general we see in mma some very talented strikers have had unorthodox styles. one fighter in particular that comes to mind would be chick liddell he had a heavy kempo background but generally used looping punches and straights often with a flared elbow very unlike what you are describing. also fedor chuck and countless other fighters routinely break the rotation of humerus rule. sure there are ideals in form within a martial art but with the different body mechanics of individuals and the dynamic exchange of a fight we often dont see ideals in the sense of tma form

63

i know ive posted it a thousand times just an example i went through a pretty big chuck phase might reread his book

64

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

Silva probably has the best take down defense of anyone in MMA[/quote]

Sorry Sifu, not even close.[/quote]

Really? I don’t see people taking him down easily. In fact I remember after the Thales Leites fight the BJJ fans were all whining about Silva because he wouldn’t let Leites have an easy take down so he could then show what a BJJ master he was.

So who are all the people who are way better? List a couple of them.

65

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

Silva probably has the best take down defense of anyone in MMA[/quote]

Sorry Sifu, not even close.[/quote]

Really? I don’t see people taking him down easily. In fact I remember after the Thales Leites fight the BJJ fans were all whining about Silva because he wouldn’t let Leites have an easy take down so he could then show what a BJJ master he was.

So who are all the people who are way better? List a couple of them.[/quote]

I don’t think any of the Chute Boxe alums have great wrestling or takedown defense. At 185 I would put Bisbing, Hendo, Palhares, and Marquerdt ahead of Silva at being able to actively foil a takedown.

Silva gets points for having good enough footwork that opponents cannot line up a shot or get a dominant clinch as easy. He also manages to end up with his opponent in his guard and work from there often. If that is what you meant than I can see your point a bit. Still, he has been put on his back by Lutter, Henderson, and Sonnen.

I don’t think Leites has good takedowns in general, and certainly not in MMA. His shots were from way too far away and he couldn’t get the proper distance or angle to even make an honest attempt. Even when Silva was acting “angry” at the lack of attempts he was still keeping his distance. I am not knocking Silva for avoiding grappling, but Leites is not GSP/Coleman/Sonnen when it comes to shooting a double.

Silva avoided the ground with Maia as well. Maia’s wrestling has gotten better since he fought Silva, but I still don’t see his ability to take the fight to the ground as being all that great. He just owns it if it gets there. I hold up his performance against Weidman as evidence.

Regards,

Robert A

66

[quote]Khaine wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]westdale warrior wrote:
chael proved hes mortal a couple of connections off the start rattled anderson so bad he almost lost. som one as dynamic and explosive as lombard and with his degree of skill with regard to take downs any thing is possible. if nothing else he has the same chance as sonnen.

sifu to cut lombard down you posted 5 rounds of undeniable domination from lombard. may be his form isnt perfect on the ground with bullshit like keeping elbows in the right place but

A) he does not get cought
B) he deals more damage than most middle weights
C) he physically dominates
D) its not a drill its a fight its not going to be technically perfect and in the case of all fighters it usually isnt

and i wouldnt call someone with lombards resume or history of whooping ass someone with poor fundamentals even typing it there made a neckbeard start to grow on me [/quote]

Silva probably has the best take down defense of anyone in MMA and the best striking. Lombard would eat a lot of shots trying to get a take down on Silva.

That fight against Shlemenko that I posted went a full five rounds and then it had to go to the cards for a decision. Shlemenko did a decent job but he’s no Anderson Silva. Shlemenko is good enough to go the distance against Lombard yet somehow we are supposed to believe that Lombard will destroy someone who is better than Shlemenko, the man who went the distance.

In martial arts, proper elbow positioning is crucial to just about any upper body movement. Good fighters who come from a striking background know to keep the elbows down and in close to protect the abdomen. They also learn not to let the humerous internally rotate, instead they externally rotate enough to align the elbow directly behind the fist. Silva does this.

There are a lot of factors that go into being a fighter. Just because someone is winning fights it doesn’t mean they are a good fighter. You can be a lousy fighter but have just one attribute that none of your competition can overcome and you’ll be winning.

Quite often when someone has that one killer technique that they are really good at they rely on it at the expense of developing other skills. Which is what Lombard stand up looks like.

When I look at Lombards resume I don’t just look at a win and leave it at that. I want to know who he won against and how. Silva has beat much better talent than Lombard and less of his wins have been by decision or stoppage. [/quote]

Shlemenko has been KOd ONCE in 55 pro fights. Not a sensational fighter, but definitely an iron chin. Not knocking that guy out can hardly count against Lombard. Also, MMA math don’t work. “Silva didn’t KO Lee Murray, so clearly, he’d lose to Lombard”. See?

Well, if you’re undefeated in 25 straight fights and reigning champion in 3 promotions, odds are you’re not a ‘lousy fighter’. And Lombard clearly has more than one attribute, as does Silva. Whether his attributes match up well with Silva’s on the other hand, is a major question mark. Like you say, his stand up and movement is lacking, which would make him a (barely) moving target for Silva’s accurate striking. How would he do on the inside though (assuming he’d get there)? Olympic judo, 4th dan jits and vastly superior body strength? Could be interesting.

Lombard and Silva have the exact same amount of wins and finishes. I agree that Lombard has faced inferior opposition, at least for the last 5 or so years.

I’d love to see this fight. Pretty sure it’d end up like Silva / Hendo, but at least it would be explosive.[/quote]

I didn’t know that Lombard had knocked out Murray. I didn’t even know they fought. My point still remains. If we are going to speculate on Lombard’s prowess against Silva based on highlight reels I think we can use fight stats as well then. Silva has been more consistent in knocking out or submitting and not having to rely on the score cards.

Sure Lombard has some wins in lesser organizations but none of his fights have been against UFC fighters. He hasn’t even faced Cris Leben let alone a Josh Koschech or Diego Sanchez. But we are expected to accept that he’s going to take out the top of the food chain?

Faced inferior competition is an understatement. Silva has defeated how many champions or former champions? Franklin, Griffin, Henderson. I don’t think anyone can diss on Henderson, he was a Pride champion, he’s defeated Fedor. Silva has taken out some serious competition.

I’m pretty sure it would end up like Silva Franklin only worse.

67

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

Silva probably has the best take down defense of anyone in MMA[/quote]

Sorry Sifu, not even close.[/quote]

Off hand who has the best takedown defense?

I am thinking GSP currently.

[/quote]

Aw yeah.

Also:
-Machida.
-Aldo.
-Gray.

Not to say Silva has crappy TDD, but it’s certainly not top-shelf. He does give up takedowns against wrestlers and would be take down more if he were fighting better “MMA wrestlers”, ala Chael. His division, unlike WW and LW, just isn’t packed with that many solid wrestlers.

68

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

Silva probably has the best take down defense of anyone in MMA[/quote]

Sorry Sifu, not even close.[/quote]

Really? I don’t see people taking him down easily. In fact I remember after the Thales Leites fight the BJJ fans were all whining about Silva because he wouldn’t let Leites have an easy take down so he could then show what a BJJ master he was.

So who are all the people who are way better? List a couple of them.[/quote]

Rob A covered most of what I wanted to say. Silva has really only fought one guy with good takedowns in Chael, the results of which are iffy and will be questioned till the rematch happens due to the alleged injury. Leites, Maia, even Lutter, don’t have great takedown ability, though Maia has shown great stuff in the clinch. Okami is decent, but lacked the power double of wrestlers like Sonnen, Kos, or GSP.

So considering all that, I gotta strongly disagree with saying he’s got the best TDD.

69

[quote]westdale warrior wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

In martial arts, proper elbow positioning is crucial to just about any upper body movement. Good fighters who come from a striking background know to keep the elbows down and in close to protect the abdomen. They also learn not to let the humerous internally rotate, instead they externally rotate enough to align the elbow directly behind the fist. Silva does this.

[/quote]

this point i believe is debatable. yes if your throwing straight punches etc but this doesnt really apply to alot of power punches or even just punches in general we see in mma some very talented strikers have had unorthodox styles. one fighter in particular that comes to mind would be chick liddell he had a heavy kempo background but generally used looping punches and straights often with a flared elbow very unlike what you are describing. also fedor chuck and countless other fighters routinely break the rotation of humerus rule. sure there are ideals in form within a martial art but with the different body mechanics of individuals and the dynamic exchange of a fight we often dont see ideals in the sense of tma form [/quote]

It’s not debatable at all. The elbow is the controlling joint in any upper body striking. Keeping it close to the body for certain punches results in conservation of inertia. It also just so happens that the ideal elbow ready position for a number of strikes also happens to be the best position to use the arms and elbow as a guard.

I have the distinct impression that you have never fought someone without foot pads. If you ever try that I have a tip for you based upon personal experience. If they are keeping their elbows down and close in to protect their floating ribs don’t just throw roundhouses in there, if you hit the point of the elbow with the wrong part of your foot or ankle joint you are going to be in a world of hurt.

Another major point is what we generally see in MMA doesn’t mean anything. So many of those guys are from wrestling or Jiu Jitsu backgrounds that the general level of striking is not all that good. Wrestlers in particular tend to carry over bad habits from wrestling.

Just because something works well enough against the average run of the mill strikers it doesn’t mean it is going to serve you well against the elite strikers, like Silva, GSP, Machida.

Human body mechanics don’t change that much and that is quite often used as an excuse for sloppy technique. But when someone is all bulked up like Lombard it is going to start affecting how they can move.

Another thing you are wrong about is linear punches not being powerful. Here is an example of a high level striker who keeps his elbow down for some of his most devastating punches. Watch the fighter in the black trunks. At 0:26 he throws a reverse punch to the body, 0:28 an upper cut, 0:46 another reverse punch. In slow mo it’s easier to see the elbow position. 1:02 the upper cut and at 1:14 the knockout that elbow almost touching his body. Something else that is important to note on that final punch is the fist, forearm and elbow are all traveling in the same plane. If the elbow and fist are not traveling in the same plane you lose power.

70

[quote]westdale warrior wrote:

i know ive posted it a thousand times just an example i went through a pretty big chuck phase might reread his book[/quote]

This video shows a point I made in my last post. For this type of punch the elbow and fist need to be traveling in the same plane of motion. That is part of the reason why his elbow comes up high, the other being he wants to come down on top of the other guys head.

71

Thanks for all the input on TDD. All the hype surrounding what a great BJJ expert Leites was, led me to believe it. My way of thinking is that if he’s so good at BJJ he should be able to get his opponent into a position where he can work his magic. Or to paraphrase others, his martial art should work against a “fully resisting opponent” not just a student in the dojo.

I had assumed Leites must be really good at take downs as that is where he needs to get his opponents to show how great he is at BJJ. Apparently I was wrong.

72

i never said linear punches where not powerful anywhere reread my post, yes i have been elbow spiked countless times in the foot from kicking without leg pads. did it effect me at the time ? no i knew it hurt but realistically it did nothing and continuing to kick for the floating ribs outweighed the damage i was receiving could i walk after? barely

“For this type of punch the elbow and fist need to be traveling in the same plane of motion”
by the way your saying that in relation to the video and what you said earlier it seems like your just saying the arm needs to move to punch

and your shitting all over the pros saying they have no skill. thats just neckbeardery at its finest. even the fighters you name dont adhere rigidly to strict form all the time. and there’s tons of fighters who throw punches from fucked up angles with wide loops or that just look like technical dog shit that i wouldnt for the life of me want to get hit by

its mma not karate class and thats how most fighters fight. if you want perfect striking form within the confines of a set of rules that promote such things watch a shotokan kumite

sonens stand up wasnt exactly a technical marvel thefirst time they fought sure seemed effective though

73

[quote]Sifu wrote:
I didn’t know that Lombard had knocked out Murray. I didn’t even know they fought. My point still remains. If we are going to speculate on Lombard’s prowess against Silva based on highlight reels I think we can use fight stats as well then. Silva has been more consistent in knocking out or submitting and not having to rely on the score cards. [/quote]

He hasn’t. They haven’t fought. But neither have Silva and Shlemenko. Making both comparisons equally shit. Which was my point.

You said: Lombard didn’t KO Shlemenko = Silva must beat Lombard
I said: Silva didn’t KO Murray = Lombard must beat Silva

See? Neither makes any kind of sense. Moving on.

Also, stop saying Silva has been more consistent in finishing his fights. Both fighters have 31 pro wins and 24 finishes.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Sure Lombard has some wins in lesser organizations but none of his fights have been against UFC fighters. He hasn’t even faced Cris Leben let alone a Josh Koschech or Diego Sanchez. But we are expected to accept that he’s going to take out the top of the food chain? [/quote]

Nah, I wouldn’t expect anything of the sort, which is why I said it’ll probably end like the Hendo fight. I’m just saying Lombard’s skill set could make the fight interesting.

IMO, his striking fundamentals aren’t really all that relevant, because if he tries to stand and bang with Silva, he’ll get picked apart by the longer, more mobile, accurate and technical striker. His body strength, Judo and Jiu Jitsu pedigree on the other hand, makes me think it could get very interesting if he closes the gap and makes it a grappling contest. Which would depend on his footwork. Which is probably not good or fast enough. But I’d still like to find out for certain.

74

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
If silva really did have a broken/fractured rib in their last fight, then it really does call into question just how well Sonnen actually did, and how much it was actually attributed to Anderson’s injury.

I love sonnen as a trash talker, as a fighter he’s nothing special. Really a one trick pony, great wrestling, boring or inefficient at best in every other aspect.

Silva on point and coming in with a vengeance?

I say either Sonnen gets sparked out by Silva in dramatic fashion, or we get one of Silva’s shitty victories where he stands around blaming the other fighter for not engaging, but not actively attempting to engage himself.[/quote]

This seems likely, either way i cant see Silva allowing himself to lose this one. However i think we’re more likely to see Silva come out and smash Sonnen within a couple rounds than see him dance around and bore him to death just due to the sheer animosity he must hold for this guy.

Everytime Silva’s had a poor performance he’s come back to make a huge statement afterwards, and i think he will be looking to do this here.

75

Also, it’s ridiculous to think that Lombard has any more of a shot against Silva than Belfort did, and i’d actually argue that his chances are worse because of his short stature/reach. Silva would exploit that every single time Lombard tried to come in with those flurries.

This fight shouldnt even be considered by anyone yet.

76

Hmmm…Vitor…Lombard…interesting.

77

[quote]zenontheterrible wrote:

[quote]Thuggish wrote:

[quote]zenontheterrible wrote:
i actually think he has a pretty decent chance to win this fight, because A) he has a great chin.
[/quote]

Leben has a ridiculous chin. Look what happened to him.[/quote]

true but silva’s strikes didn’t seem to phase sonnen last fight (and i honestly don’t buy the injured rib thing). I still think silva is better, but i also think people are silly to count sonnen out. Whoever wins though doesn’t matter to me, if sonnen wins it’ll be an exciting upset, and if silva wins i get to see sonnen lose (yay!). [/quote]

I buy it, he wasn’t moving right from the get go.

78

[quote]Fistiecuffs wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

If I was on steroids like Sonnen was and I still couldn’t put away an injured Silva it wouldn’t give me any mental advantage to face him again clean. Or to look at it another way. If I had a broken rib (which is a real bitch to fight with) and someone on steroids still couldn’t put me away, I would feel very confident facing him again. [/quote]

I doubt Sonnen will be clean, he will have it out of his system by the fight time (hopefully) but he won’t be clean this time around either. He has been competing in wrestling since 9, cutting weight for over 20 years and training his ass off all that time, and he has been juicing, his T levels would be pretty fucked up for a person who has to train many hours a day for a high profile championship fight should he not juice for this fight. I don’t know if Silva knows that, and if he does he probably doesn’t care, all he can do at this point is drill sprawl after sprawl and hope everything goes fine.[/quote]

Sprawl after sprawl… And maybe some flying knees.

79

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Thanks for all the input on TDD. All the hype surrounding what a great BJJ expert Leites was, led me to believe it. My way of thinking is that if he’s so good at BJJ he should be able to get his opponent into a position where he can work his magic. Or to paraphrase others, his martial art should work against a “fully resisting opponent” not just a student in the dojo.

I had assumed Leites must be really good at take downs as that is where he needs to get his opponents to show how great he is at BJJ. Apparently I was wrong. [/quote]

Leites IS a phenomenal BJJ black belt. IIRC he won Gold at one of the big tourneys… That was sport BJJ.

Competitors tend to have serviceable, but limited, standup wrestling, focusing on a handful of setups and finishes. Reason for this is that the real action is on the ground. Guys will pull guard if they have a good enough guard game, or if they figure “I’m not getting this takedown, but he might, why give him the points?”

As for how this translates to MMA… much the same as wrestling. Setups are different, stance is different, timing is different. And there’s one added factor. The athletes are different. While you can expect a collegiate wrestler to be strong and/or explosive to some degree, there are HIGH level BJJ guys that are neither. Maia is one of them. Caio Terra is another. Guys that rely on endurance, flexibility, and of course, technique. For every Jacare and Arona, you have a guy like Leites.

… And of course, all these high level BJJ Gods decide to turn into K1 strikers, adding to their awesomeness (read: failure).

80

[quote]westdale warrior wrote:
i never said linear punches where not powerful anywhere reread my post, yes i have been elbow spiked countless times in the foot from kicking without leg pads. did it effect me at the time ? no i knew it hurt but realistically it did nothing and continuing to kick for the floating ribs outweighed the damage i was receiving could i walk after? barely

“For this type of punch the elbow and fist need to be traveling in the same plane of motion”
by the way your saying that in relation to the video and what you said earlier it seems like your just saying the arm needs to move to punch

and your shitting all over the pros saying they have no skill. thats just neckbeardery at its finest. even the fighters you name dont adhere rigidly to strict form all the time. and there’s tons of fighters who throw punches from fucked up angles with wide loops or that just look like technical dog shit that i wouldnt for the life of me want to get hit by

its mma not karate class and thats how most fighters fight. if you want perfect striking form within the confines of a set of rules that promote such things watch a shotokan kumite

sonens stand up wasnt exactly a technical marvel thefirst time they fought sure seemed effective though

[/quote]

The way you wrote that, it gave me the impression that you think that most if not all powerful strikes are non linear.

Keep banging up your feet on peoples elbows and eventually you are going to hit that one spot that you shouldn’t have hit again and you are going to regret it. But it sounds like their guard is doing it’s job. I would much rather have someone hurt them self on the point of my elbow than lay a roundhouse, sidekick or punch into my floating ribs.

In mathematics a plane is a two dimensional flat surface. For hook punches, aligning the fist and elbow so that the arc they are traveling is in the same plane will yield maximum power. Same thing with that video of Chuck Liddell you posted. His elbow is coming up and over in that punch because it’s traveling in the same plane as the fist. Try throwing that punch with you elbow down low and it won’t pull through the target in the same way.

If you still can’t visualize what I am trying to tell you try this. Hold your left hand up, out in front of your face, this is your target. Hold your right arm straight out to the side at shoulder level parallel to the ground so that the shoulder, humerus, elbow, forearm and fist are all in a plane that is parallel to the ground. If you now bring in the fist to the target keeping the whole arm in that same plane, when the fist hits the target it should be fully perpendicular to the target and your forearm will still be parallel to the ground with the fist, forearm, elbow and humerus all at the same height as the shoulder. That is what I mean by being in the same plane.

Now leave your hand where it is about mouth level/shoulder and drop the elbow down until your are in the arm wrestling position in front of you. Now keeping the hand at the same shoulder height, the elbow down and forearm flexed bring the fist back out to the side. If you now try to hit keeping your fist in an arc at shoulder height and your elbow down so they are not traveling in the same plane, you buddies at the gym are going to laugh at you and say you hit like a girl!

No I’m not shitting all over the pro’s saying they have no skills. I’m saying most of them don’t have a very high level of striking skills by virtue of the fact that a lot of them don’t some from a striking background. Striking isn’t something that you just pick up in your mid twenties and all of a sudden get good at it. At least not in comparison to someone like Silva or Machida who have been doing it since they were children. Both of them have well over twenty years of experience with striking.

Fighters who can throw punches in unusual ways and still get power are the exception not the rule and even then there are reasons why they are able to make it work. After watching what Lombard did to Shlemenko with multiple punches and comparing that to what Silva did to Irvin with one punch I know who I would prefer to get hit by.

“It’s how most fighters fight” is like saying “I play golf at the local put put, it how most golfers golf”. “I’ve been beating everyone there lately I think I’m ready to take on Tiger Woods”. I don’t need all that fancy swing practice bullshit, I just swing at the ball like everyone else. I’m unorthodox".

I’m not suggesting Shotokan tourney rules. That shit’s ridiculous. It’s not that hard to tell from watching the Lombard vs Shlemenko fight that Shlemenko comes from a stand up fighting discipline. He took some solid shots and rolled on the ground but when he stood up he still maintained his composure and good stand up fundamentals such as guarding himself. As that fight wore on Lombard became more and more wide open to getting hit and his striking had withered away.

In the fight against Sonnen they say Silva was injured with a broken rib. Which is believable because he did seem off. Even more importantly after the fight Sonnen failed his drug test. Silva was not at his best against a guy who was on performance enhancing drugs. I don’t think it is realistic to draw any conclusions from that, other than Silva is one tough son of a bitch to take that kind of a beating from someone on steroids while he was injured and he still won despite it all.