Shoulder Presses

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
1

My shoulder day starts like:
Sitting Twisting Dumbbell Press
Sitting Military Barbell Press
Standing Military Barbell Press

each for 1 set of 4-6 reps. Then I do stuff for medial and rear deltoids and sometimes forearms and sometimes olympic lifts (it’s kinda complicated)

anyway, the first one is the fuckin bane of my shoulder day. One week I do 75s for 6 reps. I then can’t do 80s, so do 75s for 6 again, then I remember to bring my fractional plates and can only do 3 of shitty for for 77.5s. My 1st rep is always a bitch. My lifting partner, on the other hand has no problem progressing on these, and has passed me on his weight for this.

Could something be up with my form? Would I benefit from changing the shoulder day around a bit?

2

[quote]TheBlade wrote:
My shoulder day starts like:
Sitting Twisting Dumbbell Press
Sitting Military Barbell Press
Standing Military Barbell Press

each for 1 set of 4-6 reps. Then I do stuff for medial and rear deltoids and sometimes forearms and sometimes olympic lifts (it’s kinda complicated)

anyway, the first one is the fuckin bane of my shoulder day. One week I do 75s for 6 reps. I then can’t do 80s, so do 75s for 6 again, then I remember to bring my fractional plates and can only do 3 of shitty for for 77.5s. My 1st rep is always a bitch. My lifting partner, on the other hand has no problem progressing on these, and has passed me on his weight for this.

Could something be up with my form? Would I benefit from changing the shoulder day around a bit?

[/quote]

Yes, you definitely need a new shoulder routine i think…ive never seen anything really like that, and i think you should try sometihng new…give this is a shot…

Warm Up/Stretch
Standing Shoulder Press(barbell) 4x6-10
Lateral Raises - 3 x 10
Rear Raises or Reverse PecDec - 3 x 10
Bradford Press - 2 x 10 Lightweight/Strict Form

Try and let me know what u think good luck bro

3

Obviously this body part split isnt working for you. Maybe switching to a full body routine, and changing your exercise selection would help. Too much direct shoulder work is a recipe for disaster. You’re most likely going to press your way into an injury.

4

bruinsdmb,
My split’s working in all respects (strength, size) except for my shoulders, for which I constantly get plateaus. So I think it’s the way I do shoulders rather than the whole split.

[quote]IronWarrior34 wrote:
Yes, you definitely need a new shoulder routine i think…ive never seen anything really like that, and i think you should try sometihng new…give this is a shot…

Warm Up/Stretch
Standing Shoulder Press(barbell) 4x6-10
Lateral Raises - 3 x 10
Rear Raises or Reverse PecDec - 3 x 10
Bradford Press - 2 x 10 Lightweight/Strict Form

Try and let me know what u think good luck bro[/quote]
My mistake about not mentioning the rest of my shoulder routine. I do 2 sets of lateral raises then two sets of cable things for rear deltoids (did the rear raises for a while but decided to switch it up). I’m definitely not just pressing. My mistake if I came off that way.

Anyway, I’m definitely down with changing things up,
What’s a Bradford press?

I do the standing barbell press as my 3rd set, but I find my load is lower than the sitting version, so I’ve never really emphasized it. Any reason in particular you suggest doing it first? And do you do them in the front or the back of the head?

Even if I never do them again, I’m still really curious just for own education’s sake about why my dumbell presses suffer so much, do you or anyone have any ideas?

5

It was kind of hard to understand your workout, but here is what I think you are saying. You do a set of Arnold presses (seated twisting db presses), then a set of seated barbell presses, then a set of standing barbell presses, followed by your other shoulder work.

You expect the weight to increase for each of the three sets. I think this is a reasonable expectation. Arnold presses have a greater ROM than the other two movements, plus they are done with dumbbells, so you shouldn’t be able to do as many. You should be able to do more on the seated and standing barbell presses because they are with a barbell. Sitting takes the stabilizing muscles of the trunk out of the lift, so depending upon the stability of your trunk, you would be able to do either more or less standing than sitting.

So far I haven’t answered your question, just summarized what you already told us. My question for you is, where is your sticking point? Is it right off the shoulders, or farther up? Also, how is your trunk stability? Do you ever do any other overhead work (overhead squats,etc)? Lastly, do you try to “explode” the weight off your shoulders of grind it out slowly? People seem to make gains in overhead press strength when they focus on “exploding” up rather than just slowly lifting it overhead.

6

[quote]smallmike wrote:
It was kind of hard to understand your workout, but here is what I think you are saying. You do a set of Arnold presses (seated twisting db presses), then a set of seated barbell presses, then a set of standing barbell presses, followed by your other shoulder work.

You expect the weight to increase for each of the three sets. I think this is a reasonable expectation. Arnold presses have a greater ROM than the other two movements, plus they are done with dumbbells, so you shouldn’t be able to do as many. You should be able to do more on the seated and standing barbell presses because they are with a barbell. Sitting takes the stabilizing muscles of the trunk out of the lift, so depending upon the stability of your trunk, you would be able to do either more or less standing than sitting.

So far I haven’t answered your question, just summarized what you already told us. My question for you is, where is your sticking point? Is it right off the shoulders, or farther up? Also, how is your trunk stability? Do you ever do any other overhead work (overhead squats,etc)? Lastly, do you try to “explode” the weight off your shoulders of grind it out slowly? People seem to make gains in overhead press strength when they focus on “exploding” up rather than just slowly lifting it overhead.[/quote]

My strength is highest on the sitting presses, I’ve always thought it was because it’s easier on the front than behind the head, where I do the standing ones.

I think my weak points is right off the shoulders, considering I have a lot of trouble starting for the 1st rep in the Arnold Presses and I probably go lower on the standing presses (all the way down to touching my traps) and it’s weaker.

I’m not sure whether I try to explode but I think I do as an effort to get through the challenging part quickest. But I don’t consciously focus on that.

I don’t really do much other overhead work. Haven’t done overhead squats for a long ass time. Would you recommend them?

Oh, I also do a set of presses (sitting, with the bar in front) on Chest day. One set. As a supplementary exercise for whatever my max effort exercise is that day.

7

Bradford Press - Stand up with a barbell, and raise the bar over and behind your head, and only lift the bar high enough to clear ur head, dont extend fully, bring bar back to front…so ur just fluidly bringing the bar in front of your face and behind ur head to hit all 3 shoulder heads…do not stop at the front or back, just keep it moving and find a nice steady, controlled pace…you will definitely get a great burn out of it, and it also strengthens your rotator cuff…there may be another name for it, but thats the name i have been taught…good luck bro, hope it helps

8

the reason why you want to do the shoulder press with a barbell or dumbbells first is to get max effort out of it…you could pre-exhaust the muscles and it last but i dont think thats what your looking to do…doing it for your first excercise with a warm up set or two before doing your 4 working sets, will get max effort out of your main shoulder muscles, greatly helping gettin maximum loads for that excercise…i usually do barbell press in front of my head, behind the head can get dangerous if your not careful…stick with in front of the head…good luck…any more questions keep em coming bro, hope im helpin u out

9

I love the Bradford press idea I could see that really helping out my lower part of the motion.

max effort work? isn’t that in the 1-3 rep range? I do ME work for all other body parts…would it help to do it for shoulders as well? that’d be pretty cool, I love ME work, but a powerlifter buddy recommended against it for shoulders for safety reasons

how low do you go on the barbell press? I’m generally going to the upper part of the chin

Any reason why you’re suggesting 6-10 reps for everything? Generally I start with big movements of 4-6 and go slowly up in reps as I increase the level of isolation in my latter exercises (but only up to about 8 reps)

so you’d advice against the dumbell presses completely?

yeah bro you’re definitely giving some good suggestions, thanks

hopefully you reply by noon tomorrow (shoulder day!) and all the finishing touches of shoulders will be hammered out here. I’m kinda psyched

if not I’m kinda thinking at the moment with your thoughts and other things in mind:
standing shoulder presses 2X3-5
lateral raises 2X5-8
rear cable shit 2X5-8
Bradford Presses 3X6-8
(then I do forearms)

10

[quote]TheBlade wrote:
I love the Bradford press idea I could see that really helping out my lower part of the motion.

max effort work? isn’t that in the 1-3 rep range? I do ME work for all other body parts…would it help to do it for shoulders as well? that’d be pretty cool, I love ME work, but a powerlifter buddy recommended against it for shoulders for safety reasons
[/quote]
Your right, i didnt mean to say Max Effort, not sure where my head was at! haha…i meant to say your training capacity…doint the barbell press as your first excercise will allow your shoulders to fresh and move the most amount of weight…hope u get what im sayin

[quote]
how low do you go on the barbell press? I’m generally going to the upper part of the chin [/quote]

upper part of the chin is fine, thats right around where i go as well

[quote]
Any reason why you’re suggesting 6-10 reps for everything? Generally I start with big movements of 4-6 and go slowly up in reps as I increase the level of isolation in my latter exercises (but only up to about 8 reps)[/quote]

when i said 6-10 i was always talkin about warm up, my bad…id warm up with 2 sets of 10 just to get the muscles some blood flowing to them, and nice and warm…make sure you stretch though even before doing the warm ups! stretching is key to everything! i stretch everyday for about 10 minutes…and since i have to walk to my gym cuz im at college, and its freezing out, ill go on the bike for about 10 miniutes also to get the blood flowing and build up a sweat, i hate training cold

[quote]
so you’d advice against the dumbell presses completely?[/quote]

NO!! not at all, dumbbells are excellent!! i usually switch it up between dumbbell and barbell presses, but preferably i love dumbbells more! more range of motion and more of an iso movement hitting more muscles!! i just recently put up 100lbs dbs. for 5, im pretty proud of that being only around 180 lbs!! its a feat for me so i thought id share! haha dumbbells are excellent man, i like them more than barbell

11

I’m not sure how anyone can evaluate your shoulder progress without seeing your entire routine. Most people seem to train chest twice per week with another intensive shoulder day and wonder why their shoulders hurt or do not progress.

IF you’ve got your direct/indirect shoulder volume in check, I’d use either Bradford presses 3x8-10 followed by seated BB press from eye level to lockout utilizing a “7/5/3” wave OR seated BB press full-range 6/1 rep pattern followed by strict BB upright rows with 14-16" grip 3x8. Good luck

12

I just started a new shoulder routine that I got out of Arnolds Book of Modern Bodybuilding.

Try this out, it gave me DOMS for 4 days afterwards.
Damn Arnold, :stuck_out_tongue:

Clean and Press 1x12 1x9 1x6 1x3
Dumbbell Lateral Raise(Did 3 sets of 10)
Heavy Upright Row 1x10 1x6 1x4
Push Press 1x6 1x4 1x2

13

[quote]Radjxf wrote:
I’m not sure how anyone can evaluate your shoulder progress without seeing your entire routine. Most people seem to train chest twice per week with another intensive shoulder day and wonder why their shoulders hurt or do not progress.

[/quote]

Thank you for saying this. You guys are overanalyzing what should be a small part of the entire training program.

14

just got back from gym. my shoulders are fuckin wrecked. good times.

I did:
Standing Barbell Press: 130 * 4X5
Lateral Raises: 55* 2X6
Cable Rear thing: 70 * 2X6
Bradford Press: 95 x 6,5
(then forearms)
I was definitely weaker than I thought I’d be on the Bradford Press.
My lifting buddy actually did 20 lbs more on that (for equal reppage) despite being about equal on the barbell press which explains his stronger dumbbell press.

the standing press are definitely harder than sitting for some reason (I did 5 reps of 160 on those)

15

Radjxf,
Good point. I do chest on Day1 of my routine, doing 1 max effort lift, then three more chest exercises (1 set each), then close grip BP then one military press set. My shoulder day is Day 4 so I figure that’s more than enough rest in between.

For the record my routine is:
Day 1: Chest and Abs (with ME singles on Chest)
Day 2: week A: Upper Back (with ME singles), forearms Week B: Upper Bakc (with ME triples and more volume)
Day 3: Lower Body (as in quads, low back, hams) (with ME triples and more volume)
Day 4: Week A: Shoulders, Oly lifts, traps Week B: shoulders, forearms
Day 5: Biceps and Triceps (with ME triples)
Day 6: Lower Body (with ME singles and low volume) and calves
I alternate between Week A and B. In general this routine has gotten me some sweet gains in all respects, except for plateaus on shoulders, and sometimes on chest ME and I think that’s because my shoulders are limiting.
(day 7 is usually a rest day)

Bradford press first?

What’s a 7/5/3 wave? and what do you mean by a “6/1” rep pattern?

aren’t upright rows a trap thing?

Dan,
Wow, I wouldn’t figure Arnold to give much credence to oly lifts for shoulders (the clean and press and push press). I’ve always gotten mixed opinions about oly lifts for shoulders, and in general those opinions have been negative, so I do Oly lifts every other week towards the end of my routine for shoulders.

bruinsdmb,
you at UCLA? you may know the dude who suggested me my program, initials JC

16

No sorry its the Boston Bruins not UCLA bruins.

17

[quote]TheBlade wrote:
just got back from gym. my shoulders are fuckin wrecked. good times.

I did:
Standing Barbell Press: 130 * 4X5
Lateral Raises: 55* 2X6
Cable Rear thing: 70 * 2X6
Bradford Press: 95 x 6,5
(then forearms)
I was definitely weaker than I thought I’d be on the Bradford Press.
My lifting buddy actually did 20 lbs more on that (for equal reppage) despite being about equal on the barbell press which explains his stronger dumbbell press.

the standing press are definitely harder than sitting for some reason (I did 5 reps of 160 on those)
[/quote]

Thats great to hear, happy it worked out for ya! And yes, the bradford press is pretty difficult, at once u get the form down though u will be able to throw some extra weight on there…but it definitley gets a great burn in! good luck bro! hope it helped u out

18

Blade, when I state 7/5/3 wave, I mean for example 200x7, 210x5 and 220x3 with a couple minutes rest between sets. That consitutes one “wave”. Generally I will perform only 2-3 waves.
6/1 is simply a contrast method of a set of 6 followed by a brief rest, then a single rep at a much higher weight. I may do 4-5 pairs of these for example.
Lastly, I’m one of the few I know that like the upright row for deltoid development. IMO it must be performed strictly, with a slightly wider grip than you see in the glossy mags. Be careful on this one as it does have potential to hurt your shoulders, but that’s usually due to weight that’s too heavy, cheating and the narrow grip.

19

I would look to how close your shoulder day is to your chest day. Maybe to many presses for the week?

I found the their are more slowtwich fibers in shoulders and they respond best to some form of tri sets, and drop sets.

20

[quote]Radjxf wrote:
Blade, when I state 7/5/3 wave, I mean for example 200x7, 210x5 and 220x3 with a couple minutes rest between sets. That consitutes one “wave”. Generally I will perform only 2-3 waves.
6/1 is simply a contrast method of a set of 6 followed by a brief rest, then a single rep at a much higher weight. I may do 4-5 pairs of these for example.
Lastly, I’m one of the few I know that like the upright row for deltoid development. IMO it must be performed strictly, with a slightly wider grip than you see in the glossy mags. Be careful on this one as it does have potential to hurt your shoulders, but that’s usually due to weight that’s too heavy, cheating and the narrow grip. [/quote]

OK. Give me a couple weeks to get used to the standing BB press in front form, then I’ll try out the waves with the 7/5/3 and 6/1