Shoulder Exercise Selection

Training
61

[quote]docholliday7777 wrote:

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
After seeing the photos, I’m also calling “troll” on this one.
[/quote]
I’m 192 pounds at 5’10 , these phtoes where at 180. I squat 565# at 192. My physique is clearly more impressive than yours and my numbers are higher. If the level of physiue development is directly proportional to “Troll” Status, than you are more a troll than I.[/quote]

lol, what does your alleged squat have to do with shoulder training?[/quote]
Or my body stats for that matter, that comment was clearly not related to the topic, it was stab at T3hPwnisher. [/quote]

dude your talking in absolutes though by standing your point of view is better or more accurate than what others are. There aren’t many absolutes in life (death and taxes) what works for you may not work for someone else that doesn’t mean your opinion is more acurate than someone elses. Isn’t the reason why you started this post in your exact words to share opinions or thoughts (somethink like that)

As far as taking a stab at T3hPwnisher well thats just your age i guess but quick question how do you know your so much more awesome than T3hPwnisher ?[/quote]
Muscular contraction is an absolute, T3Pwnisher stabed at me first. There is no room for opinion in regards to the recruitment of the medial deltoid.

62

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:
Not to shabby for a twenty rear old at 5’10 eh?
[/quote]

At twenty you haven’t even finished physically maturing. Yes, nature has delt you a decent hand. So we know that ‘right off the shelf and out of the box’ you look decent. Now the question is how much are going to be able to add to that from this point on. You don’t get the credit for nature’s work.
I would like to see a video of that squat.

63

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

Lateral abduction of the humerus with your arms straight does not create a better training stimulus than abduction with a bend in the elbow. Nor does it allow for as consistant progress. [/quote]

Yet lateral abduction with arms straight can create more stimulus with a lesser load due to the mechanical disadvantage (which you already acknowledged). If lifting a heavier dumbell due to a bent arm satisfies your ego, yet at the most basic level is providing the same muscle stress on the target, then all you’ve done is impress yourself in the mirror.

Additionally, your working definition of “consistent progress” is not actually consistent with the goals of bodybuilders or physique oriented athletes. As such, you can argue about training for ever increasing #s all you want, but it’s pointless in a bodybuilding forum. I wasted many of my early training years chasing #s. Then I realized what I wanted out of my training and spent the majority of years until now learning how to use less weight to achieve my goals.

(That’s all I’ve got, after reading through the rest of this thread I’m out)

S[/quote]

every page that this thread continues on I’m going to re-post this. Becuase this should have ended the thread.

64

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

[quote]docholliday7777 wrote:

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
After seeing the photos, I’m also calling “troll” on this one.
[/quote]
I’m 192 pounds at 5’10 , these phtoes where at 180. I squat 565# at 192. My physique is clearly more impressive than yours and my numbers are higher. If the level of physiue development is directly proportional to “Troll” Status, than you are more a troll than I.[/quote]

lol, what does your alleged squat have to do with shoulder training?[/quote]
Or my body stats for that matter, that comment was clearly not related to the topic, it was stab at T3hPwnisher. [/quote]

dude your talking in absolutes though by standing your point of view is better or more accurate than what others are. There aren’t many absolutes in life (death and taxes) what works for you may not work for someone else that doesn’t mean your opinion is more acurate than someone elses. Isn’t the reason why you started this post in your exact words to share opinions or thoughts (somethink like that)

As far as taking a stab at T3hPwnisher well thats just your age i guess but quick question how do you know your so much more awesome than T3hPwnisher ?[/quote]
Muscular contraction is an absolute, T3Pwnisher stabed at me first. There is no room for opinion in regards to the recruitment of the medial deltoid.
[/quote]
bro only a sith talks in absolutes…

65

Youngster (Sith) lol how do u train biceps

66

Seems like this thread has deteriorated a bit, but the original question is one I’ve explored a little, so I thought I’d chime in.

My shoulders improved quite a bit last year after working them with mostly over-head pressing.

Then I took some time off, and this time around I used isolation movements.

The results have been better this time around, with a few additional benefits:

  1. less shoulder pain. I’m using lighter loads, so there is simply less stress on the structures. Same or more tension on the muscles, less stress on the bones, joints, and other connective tissue. I’m 37, so this is big for me. If you’re much younger but plan on staying in this for the long-run, this may turn into a factor someday.

  2. more enjoyable sessions. Personally, I enjoy getting creative and heavy overhead pressing is just mind-numbing to me.

  3. much higher level of safety. The shoulder pain and issues I mention in #1 are one thing, but acute injuries are a different story. Isolation work poses very little risk, but with maximal loads overhead, you’re always just the slightest move away from something going wrong and setting you back.

  4. ability to train shoulders with more frequency. not saying anything about the relative value of frequency compared to other progression tools, but it’s nice to have it in the bag and has worked quite well for me.

I do admit that some guys have built monster shoulders with heavy compounds - good for them. If that style of training is also a match for their preferences, body style, age, etc…then it’s a winner. But personally, I’m in the middle of turning my shoulders into little three-headed monsters…and isolation is proving to work wonders.

67

[quote]docholliday7777 wrote:
Youngster (Sith) lol how do u train biceps[/quote]
I create Flexion at the elbow joint against progressively heavier resistance.

68

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

Lateral abduction of the humerus with your arms straight does not create a better training stimulus than abduction with a bend in the elbow. Nor does it allow for as consistant progress. [/quote]

Yet lateral abduction with arms straight can create more stimulus with a lesser load due to the mechanical disadvantage (which you already acknowledged). If lifting a heavier dumbell due to a bent arm satisfies your ego, yet at the most basic level is providing the same muscle stress on the target, then all you’ve done is impress yourself in the mirror.

Additionally, your working definition of “consistent progress” is not actually consistent with the goals of bodybuilders or physique oriented athletes. As such, you can argue about training for ever increasing #s all you want, but it’s pointless in a bodybuilding forum. I wasted many of my early training years chasing #s. Then I realized what I wanted out of my training and spent the majority of years until now learning how to use less weight to achieve my goals.

(That’s all I’ve got, after reading through the rest of this thread I’m out)

S[/quote]

every page that this thread continues on I’m going to re-post this. Becuase this should have ended the thread.[/quote]

Why, there was so many things incorrect with this post that I didn’t even bother responding to it, lol

69

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:
Not to shabby for a twenty rear old at 5’10 eh?
[/quote]

At twenty you haven’t even finished physically maturing. Yes, nature has delt you a decent hand. So we know that ‘right off the shelf and out of the box’ you look decent. Now the question is how much are going to be able to add to that from this point on. You don’t get the credit for nature’s work.
I would like to see a video of that squat. [/quote]

This is a pointless comment, I’ve added substantial strength and muscle to my frame in 2.5 years due to effective training and nutrition, as well as decent genetics I guess. Suggesting that my physique is not worthy of credit is suggesting that everyone my age or younger should be given no credit for their physique and credit can only be given to those who are old enough to have had to work longer for their physique, which is retarded.

70

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

Lateral abduction of the humerus with your arms straight does not create a better training stimulus than abduction with a bend in the elbow. Nor does it allow for as consistant progress. [/quote]

Yet lateral abduction with arms straight can create more stimulus with a lesser load due to the mechanical disadvantage (which you already acknowledged). If lifting a heavier dumbell due to a bent arm satisfies your ego, yet at the most basic level is providing the same muscle stress on the target, then all you’ve done is impress yourself in the mirror.

Additionally, your working definition of “consistent progress” is not actually consistent with the goals of bodybuilders or physique oriented athletes. As such, you can argue about training for ever increasing #s all you want, but it’s pointless in a bodybuilding forum. I wasted many of my early training years chasing #s. Then I realized what I wanted out of my training and spent the majority of years until now learning how to use less weight to achieve my goals.

(That’s all I’ve got, after reading through the rest of this thread I’m out)

S[/quote]

every page that this thread continues on I’m going to re-post this. Becuase this should have ended the thread.[/quote]

Why, there was so many things incorrect with this post that I didn’t even bother responding to it, lol
[/quote]

He’s a pro, you’ve read a book on anatomy.

Please enlighten us what Stu has said which was incorrect?

71

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

Lateral abduction of the humerus with your arms straight does not create a better training stimulus than abduction with a bend in the elbow. Nor does it allow for as consistant progress. [/quote]

Yet lateral abduction with arms straight can create more stimulus with a lesser load due to the mechanical disadvantage (which you already acknowledged). If lifting a heavier dumbell due to a bent arm satisfies your ego, yet at the most basic level is providing the same muscle stress on the target, then all you’ve done is impress yourself in the mirror.

Additionally, your working definition of “consistent progress” is not actually consistent with the goals of bodybuilders or physique oriented athletes. As such, you can argue about training for ever increasing #s all you want, but it’s pointless in a bodybuilding forum. I wasted many of my early training years chasing #s. Then I realized what I wanted out of my training and spent the majority of years until now learning how to use less weight to achieve my goals.

(That’s all I’ve got, after reading through the rest of this thread I’m out)

S[/quote]

every page that this thread continues on I’m going to re-post this. Becuase this should have ended the thread.[/quote]

Why, there was so many things incorrect with this post that I didn’t even bother responding to it, lol
[/quote]

Again… seriously?

72

[quote]MaazerSmiit wrote:

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

Lateral abduction of the humerus with your arms straight does not create a better training stimulus than abduction with a bend in the elbow. Nor does it allow for as consistant progress. [/quote]

Yet lateral abduction with arms straight can create more stimulus with a lesser load due to the mechanical disadvantage (which you already acknowledged). If lifting a heavier dumbell due to a bent arm satisfies your ego, yet at the most basic level is providing the same muscle stress on the target, then all you’ve done is impress yourself in the mirror.

Additionally, your working definition of “consistent progress” is not actually consistent with the goals of bodybuilders or physique oriented athletes. As such, you can argue about training for ever increasing #s all you want, but it’s pointless in a bodybuilding forum. I wasted many of my early training years chasing #s. Then I realized what I wanted out of my training and spent the majority of years until now learning how to use less weight to achieve my goals.

(That’s all I’ve got, after reading through the rest of this thread I’m out)

S[/quote]

every page that this thread continues on I’m going to re-post this. Becuase this should have ended the thread.[/quote]

Why, there was so many things incorrect with this post that I didn’t even bother responding to it, lol
[/quote]

He’s a pro, you’ve read a book on anatomy.

Please enlighten us what Stu has said which was incorrect?[/quote]

Jay Cutler is a pro as well, that doesn’t mean he has more knowledge than someone who is not. and yes, I’ve read multiple anatomy books, I’ve studied physiology, human biomechanics and anatomy at the university level and I apply my knowledge in the gym. Just because stu (at 40 years old and an extra 20 years of training) has more muscle than me, doesn’t make him a reliable source of info.

All training routines will work to some degree so long as you’re not under or over training so someone with 20 more years of living under his belt is going to have more muscle, plain and simple. I’m not claiming that lateral raises can’t help to build impressive delts, I’ve suggested that they are not the best thing to do (under normal circumstances when an individual is perfectly healthy, since everyone’s argument seems to be “they hurt my shoulders”, in which case these claims are not 100% applicable to you). For Themightystu to come up with an argument against my suggestions is incorrect in itself. There is no opinion when it comes to this stuff, it is what it is.

73

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

[quote]docholliday7777 wrote:
Youngster (Sith) lol how do u train biceps[/quote]
I create Flexion at the elbow joint against progressively heavier resistance.[/quote]

is that isolation ?

74

[quote]Serge A. Storms wrote:
Seems like this thread has deteriorated a bit, but the original question is one I’ve explored a little, so I thought I’d chime in.

My shoulders improved quite a bit last year after working them with mostly over-head pressing.

Then I took some time off, and this time around I used isolation movements.

The results have been better this time around, with a few additional benefits:

  1. less shoulder pain. I’m using lighter loads, so there is simply less stress on the structures. Same or more tension on the muscles, less stress on the bones, joints, and other connective tissue. I’m 37, so this is big for me. If you’re much younger but plan on staying in this for the long-run, this may turn into a factor someday.

  2. more enjoyable sessions. Personally, I enjoy getting creative and heavy overhead pressing is just mind-numbing to me.

  3. much higher level of safety. The shoulder pain and issues I mention in #1 are one thing, but acute injuries are a different story. Isolation work poses very little risk, but with maximal loads overhead, you’re always just the slightest move away from something going wrong and setting you back.

  4. ability to train shoulders with more frequency. not saying anything about the relative value of frequency compared to other progression tools, but it’s nice to have it in the bag and has worked quite well for me.

I do admit that some guys have built monster shoulders with heavy compounds - good for them. If that style of training is also a match for their preferences, body style, age, etc…then it’s a winner. But personally, I’m in the middle of turning my shoulders into little three-headed monsters…and isolation is proving to work wonders.[/quote]

Serg,
what is your current shoulder routine, only asking because I am training around injuries and always look to incorperate what works for others into my routine. You can pm me if you dont want the professor lecturing us on it

75

[quote]docholliday7777 wrote:

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

[quote]docholliday7777 wrote:
Youngster (Sith) lol how do u train biceps[/quote]
I create Flexion at the elbow joint against progressively heavier resistance.[/quote]

is that isolation ?[/quote]
Yes sir.

76

I’m confused.

I thought the point of improving your bio mechanical advantage (i.e bending elbows on a lateral raise) was to overload the negative portion more than you could with a strait arm. Frankly, the dudes that use 100% strict form in most commercial gyms while ripped, are tiny. And the big dudes seem to use a good bit of body english on their DB lifts.

77

lol @ the OP thinking he knows anatomy

You won’t find the term “medial deltoid” in any textbook, considering that the lateral delts are the least medial part of the deltoids. Either way, I still don’t get your argument. In general, trunk muscles move the humerus, so of course you can hit your chest/shoulders/back with different arm positions…ie a 40lb db fly might put the same tension on your chest as a 75 lb press, depending on your form and leverages. who cares

78

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
lol @ the OP thinking he knows anatomy

You won’t find the term “medial deltoid” in any textbook, considering that the lateral delts are the least medial part of the deltoids. Either way, I still don’t get your argument. In general, trunk muscles move the humerus, so of course you can hit your chest/shoulders/back with different arm positions…ie a 40lb db fly might put the same tension on your chest as a 75 lb press, depending on your form and leverages. who cares[/quote]

Finally someone found a slight error (an error that is due to 99% of people mistakenly referring to the middle deltoid as medial). If you don’t get my argument and do recognize the technical error i made, all you’ve done is recalled a term. You can’t possibly be lead to the conclusion that I don’t know the difference in medial and lateral, as I’ve stated those words multiple times on this post. Again, im suggesting there are better alternatives to laterals…upright rows with a wide grip because they’re easier to progress. Im not interested in regurgitating info and terms, ill leave that to you. Congrats on calling me on a technicality though. Maybe if you could apply what you read in anatomy textbooks (assuming you have read them and didn’t just call me out on a technicality as a means of diaplaying a tidbit of information) you would understand the argument and why I made it.

79

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
lol @ the OP thinking he knows anatomy

You won’t find the term “medial deltoid” in any textbook, considering that the lateral delts are the least medial part of the deltoids. Either way, I still don’t get your argument. In general, trunk muscles move the humerus, so of course you can hit your chest/shoulders/back with different arm positions…ie a 40lb db fly might put the same tension on your chest as a 75 lb press, depending on your form and leverages. who cares[/quote]

Oh yeah and… :slight_smile:

80

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
lol @ the OP thinking he knows anatomy

You won’t find the term “medial deltoid” in any textbook, considering that the lateral delts are the least medial part of the deltoids. Either way, I still don’t get your argument. In general, trunk muscles move the humerus, so of course you can hit your chest/shoulders/back with different arm positions…ie a 40lb db fly might put the same tension on your chest as a 75 lb press, depending on your form and leverages. who cares[/quote]

Also the definition of medial, in regards to anything other than anatomy is, Medial-situated in between. Synonyms-middle, medium, intermediate. So in the case of the term Medial deltoid, it makes just as much sense as referring to it as lateral and is a more user friendly term to those unfamilier with anatomy. Your failure to recognize this shows your lack of applicable knowledge, but you know, it is what it is.