Shoulder Exercise Selection

Training
81

I get the argument that it’s easier to progress, but you’re hilarious for starting a thread for the explicit purpose of saying saying YOURE WRONG to everyone who replies to you, including Stu, Zraw, and potentially every IFBB pro.

For me, there’s plenty of room to progress on my medial delt exercises…I do hang and swing laterals, seated laterals, and leaning laterals (with a cable or db). You’ll stall on upright rows if you haven’t already. How much are you upright rowing lol? I have a slight hunch that you can’t increase the weight on it perpetually and will end up at best in the same place us lateral raise bros are in.

82

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
lol @ the OP thinking he knows anatomy

You won’t find the term “medial deltoid” in any textbook, considering that the lateral delts are the least medial part of the deltoids. Either way, I still don’t get your argument. In general, trunk muscles move the humerus, so of course you can hit your chest/shoulders/back with different arm positions…ie a 40lb db fly might put the same tension on your chest as a 75 lb press, depending on your form and leverages. who cares[/quote]

Also the definition of medial, in regards to anything other than anatomy is, Medial-situated in between. Synonyms-middle, medium, intermediate. So in the case of the term Medial deltoid, it makes just as much sense as referring to it as lateral and is a more user friendly term to those unfamilier with anatomy. Your failure to recognize this shows your lack of applicable knowledge, but you know, it is what it is.[/quote]
lol, really, you’re wrong. Medial = closer to the midline of the body. You need to look in a medical dictionary not websters. If you really wanted to sound colloquial you wouldn’t be typing like that …also you’d call them side delts

83

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
I get the argument that it’s easier to progress, but you’re hilarious for starting a thread for the explicit purpose of saying saying YOURE WRONG to everyone who replies to you, including Stu, Zraw, and potentially every IFBB pro.

For me, there’s plenty of room to progress on my medial delt exercises…I do hang and swing laterals, seated laterals, and leaning laterals (with a cable or db). You’ll stall on upright rows if you haven’t already. How much are you upright rowing lol? I have a slight hunch that you can’t increase the weight on it perpetually and will end up at best in the same place us lateral raise bros are in.[/quote]

I’ve only said people are wrong when they say something wrong and because they challenge the facts. The purpose was to suggest to others that they should switch to upright rows instead of laterals, I,ve used facts the best I could to support my suggestion. I’ve challenged popular belief and of course some people get angered by that, its to be expected, no disrespect was intended, but you have to think someone has viewed this post and thought, “hey you know, maybe I’ll give these upright rows a shot”. And I’m using 75 found dumbells for my upright rows right now, and yes eventually, they will stall just lie everything else does,lol. But I find doing lateals makes it terribly hard to progress and keep form tight and have used upright rows because the nature of the lift does indeed provide for more consistant progress.

84

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
lol @ the OP thinking he knows anatomy

You won’t find the term “medial deltoid” in any textbook, considering that the lateral delts are the least medial part of the deltoids. Either way, I still don’t get your argument. In general, trunk muscles move the humerus, so of course you can hit your chest/shoulders/back with different arm positions…ie a 40lb db fly might put the same tension on your chest as a 75 lb press, depending on your form and leverages. who cares[/quote]

Also the definition of medial, in regards to anything other than anatomy is, Medial-situated in between. Synonyms-middle, medium, intermediate. So in the case of the term Medial deltoid, it makes just as much sense as referring to it as lateral and is a more user friendly term to those unfamilier with anatomy. Your failure to recognize this shows your lack of applicable knowledge, but you know, it is what it is.[/quote]
lol, really, you’re wrong. Medial = closer to the midline of the body. You need to look in a medical dictionary not websters. If you really wanted to sound colloquial you wouldn’t be typing like that …also you’d call them side delts[/quote]

You really think the term Medial is specific to anatomy? Surely you can’t actually think that. I recognized that they’re indeed referred to as lateral in anatomy textbooks, the term medial has a definition in anatomy, which is closer to the midline, and a definition in the real world, which is situated in the middle in which case the lateral deltoid is situated in the middle. Again your lack of conceptual knowledge is shown.

And again, for people who aren’t educated in anatomy, referring to them as medial makes a more sense than calling them lateral deltoids, obviously the most user friendly term would be middle, but medial is synonymous with middle so both terms are just as correct as the other.

Anything else?

85

I dig the posts that discuss the details and results of different approaches that have been used instead of theoretical argument.

Coach Thibs talks about shoulder anatomy here on TNation and helped me alot with understanding delt workout design.

Thibs says that basically the side delt is understimulated from heavy low rep overhead pressing as many of u guys experience has been with that and mine as well. Thibs and many other coaches here reccomend tri-sets for the side and rear delts as both have a good deal of endurance fibers that need higher reps.

In accordance with this advice I started combining drop sets and pre exhaustion together for quad sets just to take it one step further.

Example#1- seated side laterals for a double drop set of 12 reps each directly into rope upright rows which are double drop setted for 12 reps each
Example 2- bent seated laterals double drop setted 12 reps each directly into face pulls which are also double drop setted for 12 reps each

another one that worked-
Changing the resistance curve on the same movement pattern
1-Dumbell side laterals, rest 10 secs
2-Cable side laterals, reat 10 seconds
3-Machine side laterals, rest 90 seconds repeat 1-3 3 times total

I enjoy the hell out of overhead pressing, but have to admit that better development has come from the multi angle/rep approach.

86

[quote]sesumatse wrote:
I dig the posts that discuss the details and results of different approaches that have been used instead of theoretical argument.

Coach Thibs talks about shoulder anatomy here on TNation and helped me alot with understanding delt workout design.

Thibs says that basically the side delt is understimulated from heavy low rep overhead pressing as many of u guys experience has been with that and mine as well. Thibs and many other coaches here reccomend tri-sets for the side and rear delts as both have a good deal of endurance fibers that need higher reps.

In accordance with this advice I started combining drop sets and pre exhaustion together for quad sets just to take it one step further.

Example#1- seated side laterals for a double drop set of 12 reps each directly into rope upright rows which are double drop setted for 12 reps each
Example 2- bent seated laterals double drop setted 12 reps each directly into face pulls which are also double drop setted for 12 reps each
The machine side laterals where the weight is situated on your elbow? That is a wonderful machine. that is the only exercise I would deem an adequete replacement for wide grip upright rows.

another one that worked-
Changing the resistance curve on the same movement pattern
1-Dumbell side laterals, rest 10 secs
2-Cable side laterals, reat 10 seconds
3-Machine side laterals, rest 90 seconds repeat 1-3 3 times total

I enjoy the hell out of overhead pressing, but have to admit that better development has come from the multi angle/rep approach.

[/quote]

87

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

[quote]browndisaster wrote:
lol @ the OP thinking he knows anatomy

You won’t find the term “medial deltoid” in any textbook, considering that the lateral delts are the least medial part of the deltoids. Either way, I still don’t get your argument. In general, trunk muscles move the humerus, so of course you can hit your chest/shoulders/back with different arm positions…ie a 40lb db fly might put the same tension on your chest as a 75 lb press, depending on your form and leverages. who cares[/quote]

Also the definition of medial, in regards to anything other than anatomy is, Medial-situated in between. Synonyms-middle, medium, intermediate. So in the case of the term Medial deltoid, it makes just as much sense as referring to it as lateral and is a more user friendly term to those unfamilier with anatomy. Your failure to recognize this shows your lack of applicable knowledge, but you know, it is what it is.[/quote]
lol, really, you’re wrong. Medial = closer to the midline of the body. You need to look in a medical dictionary not websters. If you really wanted to sound colloquial you wouldn’t be typing like that …also you’d call them side delts[/quote]

You really think the term Medial is specific to anatomy? Surely you can’t actually think that. I recognized that they’re indeed referred to as lateral in anatomy textbooks, the term medial has a definition in anatomy, which is closer to the midline, and a definition in the real world, which is situated in the middle in which case the lateral deltoid is situated in the middle. Again your lack of conceptual knowledge is shown.

And again, for people who aren’t educated in anatomy, referring to them as medial makes a more sense than calling them lateral deltoids, obviously the most user friendly term would be middle, but medial is synonymous with middle so both terms are just as correct as the other.

Anything else?
[/quote]
you were talking in anatomical terms for everything else. I only said you were wrong when you said something wrong.

for what it’s worth I’ll give a upright rows a try someday and will think of u. in conclusion who cares

88

" just a question I would like to share to hear you guys beliefs on the topic. "

The OP wrote that in his OP. Maybe english is not his first language. Hearing does not include writing that much. Maybe he will have to hear elsewhere.

89

Youngster looks damn good.

90

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
Youngster looks damn good.[/quote]

Agreed.

But he also needs to grow up and take a large slice of humble pie. Maybe even go for seconds.

91

[quote]SSC wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
Youngster looks damn good.[/quote]

Agreed.

But he also needs to grow up and take a large slice of humble pie. Maybe even go for seconds.[/quote]

Yes he looks amazing. But I have to say looking great does not excuse such arrogance. We are all here to learn; thank you for your input Youngster, but please tone down the overwhelming self-righteousness.

On a side-note, and this isn’t disputing anything you’ve said, but my understanding is that one of the primary benefits of compound movements over isolation equivalents is the stimulation of hormone release. Now as far as I’m aware, these hormones act systemically, as opposed to locally. Therefore to get this particular benefit surely it is not necessary to work every movement pattern with a compound exercise. So long as you are using compound lifts of some variety you will get benefit globally from hormonal actions. This is just speculation, I’m no expert, I’m just floating ideas about.

Again, please note that I’m not knocking what you’ve said, and almost exclusively use compound movements myself, I’m just thinking out loud.

92

Vince Gironda turned me on to wide grip upright rows and I do love em. I did em sloppy for weight and hurt myself, took 6 weeks to heal so now I do them very strict with perfect form and usually pre-exhaust the side delt first.

Ya that side delt machine where the weight rests on ur elbows is great great, I feel the pull and burn DIRECTLY where I want it every time, I dont use many machines but this one I do.

To break out the Coach Thibs advice again(part of his AMAZINGLY EFFECTIVE delt specialization routine) give the gironda dumbell swing laterals a try. Thibs cald em his fav after doin em and I am too after doin em.My delts dont grow easy cause Iv been kiln em for 25 yrs now and this move got em goin again, good stuff

93

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:
The biceps do not extend the shoulder joint. If your biceps are fatiguing during pulling exercises you are doing them wrong.
[/quote]

My biceps get fatigued when doing 45degree dumbbellrows or 1.5x bw chinups. Both pulling exercises. But I have to admit I havent been doing curls for 10y before starting gym.

94

The fact that OP isn’t trolling makes this all the more special. Oh boy oh boy I feel like a kid on Christmas!

95

I’d like to point out the when you are doing an upright row, your shoulder is nearly maximally internally rotated. This alters which part of the Deltoid is put under stress.

Lateral raises are done with a neutral rotation, which shifts more stress onto the lateral portions of the shoulder. Please remember that the isn’t a lateral head, the Deltoid is made up of 7 separately innervated muscle groups.

Neutral rotation puts stress right through the central heads of the Deltoid, with no rotational stress through the shoulder joint. And I don’t care that you’ve already stated your theory if for fully healthy people, If you continuously preform any movement at high angles of internal or external rotation, you won’t stay healthy for long.

96

You’re a douchebag. That’s why no one is listening to you or cares what you’re saying. Learn to not sound like an asshole and maybe you’ll actually get your point across to people, correct or not.

97

[quote]Wahuuga wrote:
I’d like to point out the when you are doing an upright row, your shoulder is nearly maximally internally rotated. This alters which part of the Deltoid is put under stress.

Lateral raises are done with a neutral rotation, which shifts more stress onto the lateral portions of the shoulder. Please remember that the isn’t a lateral head, the Deltoid is made up of 7 separately innervated muscle groups.

Neutral rotation puts stress right through the central heads of the Deltoid, with no rotational stress through the shoulder joint. And I don’t care that you’ve already stated your theory if for fully healthy people, If you continuously preform any movement at high angles of internal or external rotation, you won’t stay healthy for long. [/quote]

That’s why I do them with dumbells/Cables and role the shoulder forward slightly. It will involve slightly more rear deltoid than laterals, but is a solid compound movement for the lateral deltoid. I will often perform the machine laterals with the weight centered on the elbows, this is my favorite exercise, but nt many gyms have this machine so i didn’t mention it. one of the major points of this thread was to help people (mainly beginners) realize how unnecessary movements with the arms straight are. I would agree that over time, if perform as they are traditionally, upright rows can cause issues…but so can alot of
exercises.

98

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:
one of the major points of this thread was to help people (mainly beginners) realize how unnecessary movements with the arms straight are.[/quote]

Unnecessary for what?

99

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:
one of the major points of this thread was to help people (mainly beginners) realize how unnecessary movements with the arms straight are.[/quote]

Unnecessary for what?[/quote]

I only wish I had this information I my 20s.

100

[quote]youngster543210 wrote:

[quote]Wahuuga wrote:
I’d like to point out the when you are doing an upright row, your shoulder is nearly maximally internally rotated. This alters which part of the Deltoid is put under stress.

Lateral raises are done with a neutral rotation, which shifts more stress onto the lateral portions of the shoulder. Please remember that the isn’t a lateral head, the Deltoid is made up of 7 separately innervated muscle groups.

Neutral rotation puts stress right through the central heads of the Deltoid, with no rotational stress through the shoulder joint. And I don’t care that you’ve already stated your theory if for fully healthy people, If you continuously preform any movement at high angles of internal or external rotation, you won’t stay healthy for long. [/quote]

That’s why I do them with dumbells/Cables and role the shoulder forward slightly. It will involve slightly more rear deltoid than laterals, but is a solid compound movement for the lateral deltoid. I will often perform the machine laterals with the weight centered on the elbows, this is my favorite exercise, but nt many gyms have this machine so i didn’t mention it. one of the major points of this thread was to help people (mainly beginners) realize how unnecessary movements with the arms straight are. I would agree that over time, if perform as they are traditionally, upright rows can cause issues…but so can alot of
exercises. [/quote]

Mate, no one is saying that upright rows aren’t a solid move, people have been preforming them for years. But it can cause shoulder issues, and the deltoids will not be fully worked, as the deloid isn’t the weakest link. I’m sure that to use enough weight with a dumbell for example, your grip would struggle.

Would you not recommend that newer guys preform both. There are benefits to both exercises, but if you only preform one, then you would be missing out on some stimulus.