Main Entry: ca?dav?er
Pronunciation: k&-'da-v&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, from cadere to fall
: a dead body; especially : one intended for dissection
I guess you don’t know this but a dead body is different from a live body. So testing done on a dead body might not have any relevance to a living body because a living and dead body are different.
For example there is a thing called rigor mortis that occurs to the dead.
Main Entry: rig?or mor?tis
Pronunciation: "ri-g&r-'mor-t&s also chiefly British "rI-"gor-
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, stiffness of death
: temporary rigidity of muscles occurring after death
You see Mike if the body is stiffened with rigor mortis, then one would probably need enough force to fracture a vertebrae. All your study shows is that chiropractic adjustments won’t help the dead. Which I seriously doubt anything will.
It also show’s is the lengths that allopathic medicine will go to in order to try and discredit chiropractic medicine.
[quote]jbdd wrote:
MikeTheBear wrote:
I’m sure T-Nation’s Dr. Ryan is a nice guy and is sincere about helping others with back problems. Even Dr. Stephen Barrett has recognized that chiro care consisting of gentle spinal manipulation can be a good adjunct in back pain management.
However, I am by nature a skeptic and I personally would never see a chiro nor recommend such treatment to anyone. Keep in mind that chiropractic was started by an Iowa grocery store owner who also believed in magnetic healing.
About 3 years ago I injured my neck and to better educate myself about my condition and researched spinal anatomy. The spine is a truly remarkable structure connected by very strong ligaments and surrounded by very strong muscle. Common sense says that it would take a hell of a lot of force to pop a vertebra out of alignment.
A 1970 study showed just that. The researcher used cadavers to determine how much force was necessary to “subluxate” the vertebrae and discovered that the force necessary to cause subluxations also caused the vertebrae to fracture. Bottom line: if you really have a spinal subluxation, chances are you also have a broken back. This study is on Dr. Barrett’s site.
I urge everyone to read the chirobase site Dr. Barrett’s chirobase site before seeking chiropractic treatment. Very interesting stuff there.
Just out of curiosity, do you have any idea of the amount of force generated on the spine when doing even light squats or desdlifts or heaven forbid good mornings,now compare that to the “cadavor” data,hmm I wonder just how stiff does connective tissue get after death…more A.M.A. wool pulling!
Broken Neck IALMAO!!![/quote]
A little off topic, but along those lines, look at some of the figures for compressional force on the spine Stu McGill cites in his book, some of those figures are unreal! Even the “super man”, or prone back extension exercise puts something like 3000N on the spine. It’s pretty unreal to me the forces our body tissues endure. Mechanical disadvantage is a real bitch…
Thanks for the knowledge, Sifu. Here’s some knowledge for you:
Rigor mortis is a recognizable sign of death that is caused by a chemical change in the muscles, causing the limbs of the corpse to become stiff (Latin “rigor”) and difficult to move or manipulate. Assuming mild temperatures, rigor usually sets in about 3-4 hours after clinical death, with full rigor being in effect at about 12 hours, and eventually subsiding to relaxation at about 36 hours. Times for the onset of rigor mortis can vary from a few minutes to several hours depending on the temperature of the environment in which the body is found.
So, the dead body eventually relaxes, which is known as resolution of rigor. I had an acquaintance who was a mortician so I knew about the resolution of rigor.
As for jbdd’s comment about the effect of death on connective tissue, rigor mortis is a condition in the muscle tissue. It has to deal with the loss of ATP. Connective tissue is obviously not muscle tissue and is thus not subject to rigor mortis. You should read up on some basic physiology jbdd.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Thanks for the knowledge, Sifu. Here’s some knowledge for you:
Rigor mortis is a recognizable sign of death that is caused by a chemical change in the muscles, causing the limbs of the corpse to become stiff (Latin “rigor”) and difficult to move or manipulate. Assuming mild temperatures, rigor usually sets in about 3-4 hours after clinical death, with full rigor being in effect at about 12 hours, and eventually subsiding to relaxation at about 36 hours. Times for the onset of rigor mortis can vary from a few minutes to several hours depending on the temperature of the environment in which the body is found.
So, the dead body eventually relaxes, which is known as resolution of rigor. I had an acquaintance who was a mortician so I knew about the resolution of rigor.
As for jbdd’s comment about the effect of death on connective tissue, rigor mortis is a condition in the muscle tissue. It has to deal with the loss of ATP. Connective tissue is obviously not muscle tissue and is thus not subject to rigor mortis. You should read up on some basic physiology jbdd.[/quote]
uh huh and connective tissue is not affected by death or the embalming process,once the cadaver is cut open and exposing said tissue tends to harden spinal discs dehydreate etc,and your physiology background is ??? you note that you have a friend who is a mortician so you should know,I have 7 physicians in my family and exactly what type of connective tissue are we talking about cartilidge ? collagen elastin,lymphatic? pretty broad statement,I notice you don’t list occupation in your background…care to share or just shut up
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Thanks for the knowledge, Sifu. Here’s some knowledge for you:
Rigor mortis is a recognizable sign of death that is caused by a chemical change in the muscles, causing the limbs of the corpse to become stiff (Latin “rigor”) and difficult to move or manipulate. Assuming mild temperatures, rigor usually sets in about 3-4 hours after clinical death, with full rigor being in effect at about 12 hours, and eventually subsiding to relaxation at about 36 hours. Times for the onset of rigor mortis can vary from a few minutes to several hours depending on the temperature of the environment in which the body is found.
So, the dead body eventually relaxes, which is known as resolution of rigor. I had an acquaintance who was a mortician so I knew about the resolution of rigor.
As for jbdd’s comment about the effect of death on connective tissue, rigor mortis is a condition in the muscle tissue. It has to deal with the loss of ATP. Connective tissue is obviously not muscle tissue and is thus not subject to rigor mortis. You should read up on some basic physiology jbdd.[/quote]
also mike are you confusing subluxation with luxation,basic physiology,what? again I repeat Sir you are an idiot,also Chiropractic may have been poularized by D.D. Palmer in his Iowa OFFICE on Sept 18 1895,there is however linking the practice to ancient Egypt and “bone setters” have been used in Europe for over 500 years. You say your friend is a Mortician, hmm you wouldn’t by any chance be an M.D., cause that would explain your friendship…
[quote]jbdd wrote:
You say your friend is a Mortician, hmm you wouldn’t by any chance be an M.D., cause that would explain your friendship…[/quote]
Interesting that you have 7 physicians in your family yet hold so much contempt for the AMA. I originally wanted to be an M.D. but ended up going to law school instead. I’ve seriously considered serving on Dr. Barrett’s legal advisory board. He’s really not as anti-chiropractor as he is made out to be. He does believe that chiropractor’s have a role in back pain management. What he opposes is the idea that subluxations are the root of all human medical problems, i.e., the so-called “straight” or subluxation-based chiropractors. It seems that Dr. Ryan shares a similar philosophy.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
jbdd wrote:
You say your friend is a Mortician, hmm you wouldn’t by any chance be an M.D., cause that would explain your friendship…
Interesting that you have 7 physicians in your family yet hold so much contempt for the AMA. I originally wanted to be an M.D. but ended up going to law school instead. I’ve seriously considered serving on Dr. Barrett’s legal advisory board. He’s really not as anti-chiropractor as he is made out to be. He does believe that chiropractor’s have a role in back pain management. What he opposes is the idea that subluxations are the root of all human medical problems, i.e., the so-called “straight” or subluxation-based chiropractors. It seems that Dr. Ryan shares a similar philosophy.
So what do you do for a living?[/quote]
Wow a lawyer… really omigosh how could I question a LAWYER, did that get the respose you wanted, your last question smacks of schoolyard egotism and posturing,still unimpressed, and let me guess a bottom feeding malpractice schister? I mean you could have ended your message with “bet my armes are bigger than yours” btw no stats either?
After dealing with several ankle sprains and some mild rotator cuff issues over the past several years I"ve discovered that orthopods are basically useless for soft tissue injuries (well unless you’ve torn something and need surgery). I’ll stick to a good physical therapist or preferably a chiro/ART therapist. I give the chiro/ART person the edge because they can do adjustments which are very helpful with some injuries e.g. ankle sprains.[/quote]
A Manual Physical Therapist will also know those “adjustments.” But I think you mentioned the real key is finding a good practitioner of whatever field you choose.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Real mature jbdd. Nope, no med-malpractice for me. Strictly boring stuff like business and estate planning.
So what do you do besides being an annoyance?[/quote]
AGAIN a lawyer talking about being an annoyance,lmao!, told you retired,and maturity was of course my point about your"so what do you do for a living" question?
Am I annoying because you could not answer any of MY basic physiology questions? Not used to someone calling bullshit on you? Face it you are a blowhard and an asshole.Any more schoolyard B.S.?
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
jbdd wrote:
You say your friend is a Mortician, hmm you wouldn’t by any chance be an M.D., cause that would explain your friendship…
Interesting that you have 7 physicians in your family yet hold so much contempt for the AMA. I originally wanted to be an M.D. but ended up going to law school instead. I’ve seriously considered serving on Dr. Barrett’s legal advisory board. He’s really not as anti-chiropractor as he is made out to be. He does believe that chiropractor’s have a role in back pain management. What he opposes is the idea that subluxations are the root of all human medical problems, i.e., the so-called “straight” or subluxation-based chiropractors. It seems that Dr. Ryan shares a similar philosophy.
So what do you do for a living?[/quote]
I replied already but, once again,chiropractors are PHYSICIANS you dickhead,get it now?
Still wanna toss around physiology education gleaned from your Mortician friend? What an asshole! And please join Dr. Barret’s team, it’s probably the best thing you could do for Chiropractic!
After dealing with several ankle sprains and some mild rotator cuff issues over the past several years I"ve discovered that orthopods are basically useless for soft tissue injuries (well unless you’ve torn something and need surgery). I’ll stick to a good physical therapist or preferably a chiro/ART therapist. I give the chiro/ART person the edge because they can do adjustments which are very helpful with some injuries e.g. ankle sprains.
A Manual Physical Therapist will also know those “adjustments.” But I think you mentioned the real key is finding a good practitioner of whatever field you choose.
[/quote]
It is difficult to find an old school physical therapist who was trained in the manual therapy stuff. I know one and she is excellent, but she still doesn’t know how to adjust my talus (ankle bone) which is apparently very helpful in ankle sprains.
Oh and I’ve forgotten DO’s. They know the adjustment part although don’t know if there are many that know ART.
Penn & Teller did a Bullshit show on Alternative medicine. This included chiropracty. They showed a doctor, Dr. Ptak, who does adjustments on children. His youngest patient was, as I remember, 2 hours old. This is form his website:
“Subluxations can occur at any time. The first one may very well have occurred at your babys birth. That is why parents who understand the importance of being subluxation-free have their newborns examined by their chiropractor as soon after birth as possible.”
I am no medical professional and maybe Dr. Ryan can correct me, but should you really be doing adjustments on young children whose bones are not even completely developed yet?
This guy is making money hand over fist, and has entire families, three or four generations for patients.
Aside from the whole fuzzy subluxian thing, this is one of the issues I have with chiros. They have people coming back every two to six weeks or so for adjustments. Aside from sucking the money out of your pocket, they are not fixing the fundamental problem. It’s like having a mechanic that sells you new tires every 10,000 miles instead of telling you your front end is out of alignment and it’s making your tires wear out (sorry about the mechanic analogy). I just have a really hard time understanding why anyone, aside from someone like a professional athlete, would need to have their spine adjusted every six weeks.
So I am a sceptic about chiropracty. However, I did go to see an ART practioner as I had severe tendonitis for almost a year that nothing was working for. While it was not the miracle cure some work have you believe that ART is, it did give me some relief and I think it allowed the NSAIDs to work better.
In closing, let me say that I am also very sceptical about the medical field. I’ve got a few horror stories and am convinced that their priorities are making money and not getting sued. The patients well being comes after that.
That is exactly the type of quackery that Dr. Barrett is fighting against, and laypeople like myself, and sensible chiros who focus on back pain relief, have a problem with. This “Mr.” (because I sure as hell wouldn’t call him a doctor) Ptak is part of the subluxation cult of chiropractic.
This cult believes that subluxations are the root of every medical ailment. The reject the “germ theory” of disease and they will even recommend to parents that they not vaccinate their children. Granted, vaccinations have been dangerous, but they are being and have been made safer. Of course babies don’t need chiropractic care.
If anyone goes to a chiro who recommends adjustments for children, advises against getting kids proper immunization, and/or says he or she doesn’t “believe in germs,” run, do not walk, out of the office. And don’t, under any circumstances, let that quack touch your child.
The 2 chiros I’ve worked with, both ART trained and both excellent would finish a treatment and would be like–Bye, call me when you need me.
I’ve discussed this with one of them and he so hates that other chiros do that kind of thing that I don’t think he encourages people to come back even when they would benefit from another session or two. He leaves it up to the patient.
Don’t believe in subluxations?
I sprained my ankle a few years back and it was several months later and was just not right. I’d been to the doc (ortho) and had physical therapy and something was still off–it still hurt when I walked.
I had a visit to the chiro for other reasons and happened to mention the ankle to him (I didn’t realize that chiros worked on anything other then the spines). He explained to me how ankle sprains leave the talus (ankle bone) out of its normal place i.e. subluxed.
He adjusted it and in 30 seconds the months of discomfort ended instantly. No repeat treatment needed (well until I sprained it again).
I would get a second opinion from another chiropractor. What is really weird about your situation it that most back exercises, I’ve read, like extentions, supermans, and deadliftss better align the spinal chord (someone tell me if I’m wrong).
If I were you, until I hear a second opinion, I would strictly do bodyweight moves for your back like pull-ups, supermans and extentions. It’s your body, if it was mine when it comes to the back I’d want to play it safe.
I had a visit to the chiro for other reasons and happened to mention the ankle to him (I didn’t realize that chiros worked on anything other then the spines). He explained to me how ankle sprains leave the talus (ankle bone) out of its normal place i.e. subluxed.
He adjusted it and in 30 seconds the months of discomfort ended instantly. No repeat treatment needed (well until I sprained it again).[/quote]
There is a great taping technique for this very thing. It is quite common.
After dealing with several ankle sprains and some mild rotator cuff issues over the past several years I"ve discovered that orthopods are basically useless for soft tissue injuries (well unless you’ve torn something and need surgery). I’ll stick to a good physical therapist or preferably a chiro/ART therapist. I give the chiro/ART person the edge because they can do adjustments which are very helpful with some injuries e.g. ankle sprains.
A Manual Physical Therapist will also know those “adjustments.” But I think you mentioned the real key is finding a good practitioner of whatever field you choose.
It is difficult to find an old school physical therapist who was trained in the manual therapy stuff. I know one and she is excellent, but she still doesn’t know how to adjust my talus (ankle bone) which is apparently very helpful in ankle sprains.
Oh and I’ve forgotten DO’s. They know the adjustment part although don’t know if there are many that know ART.
[/quote]
Mention taking a Brian Mulligan course for conitnuing education. His course and his book (Nags, Snags and more) covers it and a taping technique.