[quote]SkyNett wrote:
[quote]punnyguy wrote:
Can someone please explain to me the material difference between drinking milk vs. using whey (or casein) protein?[/quote]
livestrong.com/article/529951-the-fullness-factor-of-whey-protein/[/quote]
Whey protein also has “no” limiting amino acid. Casein does.
I would like to add in a western diet leucine is never a limiting amino acid
[quote]MODOK wrote:
LOL, you still have absolutely no idea the topic we are discussing. But thanks for your contribution of more reductionist thinking. There is no way to quantifiably study this issue because as soon as you start to design a study on milk you begin looking at individual components of the milk.
As I stated before, milk is an extremely complex biological emulsion. It not only has dozens of component parts- numerous different proteins in various configurations, numerous different fatty acids in various lengths and configurations, sugars, numerous enzymes, numerous minerals, and vitamins all in specific concentrations that enable them to be absorbed and utilized as a WHOLE entity.
If a substance is in milk in a specific concentration and configuration, it is supposed to be there for optimal utilization. Either a divine deity or 4 billion years of natural selection put it there for that very reason. To think that man can go in and tinker with it, denature proteins, get rid of enzymes and probiotics and vitamins through processing, fracture the fatty acids, and then re-manufacture it on the back end by adding arbitrary amounts of vitamins back into it is the height of arrogance.
We simply aren’t that smart. This is all the work of nutritionism, as Pollan says, and it is a fatally flawed way to look at food due to food’s incredibly complex, inter-dependent nature.[/quote]
But you ALSO didn’t answer his question about how, if you believe store milk is “bad” because of pasteurization, whey doesn’t fall into the same category.
In fact, whey IS more “processed” than store milk, having far more processes in between including lipid removal, membrane filtration, etc etc etc. That’s not even counting further processes for the more expensive “hydrolysed” whey protein which go through even far more processing to make it easier to metabolize.
Not to mention, “bodybuilding/ sports performance” whey protein isolate (as opposed to the plain whey powder) is FURTHER treated with god only knows what additives. Majority of whey have BCAAs, GABA, and much much much more added to it.
How are sports nutrition companies only looking out for us by adding those additives but the “Evil and corrupt” dairy companies and FDA looking to save a few bucks and kill us all by doing much less processing and treatment?
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
Actually I have drunk it and probably a lot fresher then any of you have. Although that proves nothing. [/quote]
I doubt that since I had access to it for most of my childhood.[/quote]
That is why I used the word probably, it leaves it open to possibility. Now have you drunk that hydrogen cyanide yet. Or do you wish to construct a counter argument before I move onto organic food. [/quote]
It doesn’t leave it open to possibility when I already posted that I grew up on a dairy farm.
LOL @ comparing hydrogen cyanide to raw milk. [/quote]
Ok let’s end this pointless side thought. I was wrong you have drunk raw"er" milk then me.
[/quote]
That wasn’t the point of my initial question. You are against drinking raw milk so I asked if you’d ever tried it. [/quote]
Ok I apologies if you question was purely out of curiosity.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]James Brown wrote:
adult animals in nature don’t drink milk.
Thoughts?[/quote]
They don’t drink protein shakes either or buy 300 dollar gym memberships and then forget they have one while it continues automatic draft for three months until they realize they can’t see their feet.[/quote]
you beat me to it. let me add to that though:
point being, we do shit load of stuff other animals don’t do:
-we read
-we make music
-we cook elaborate meals
-we put ourselves on the moon
-we travel the oceans and the skies
etc etc etc
the fact that other adult animals do not drink their own species’ or another species’ milk is a lousy argument for what adult humans should do.
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
As I am being schooled as a scientist then due to the manner in which science works if anyone can prove that raw milk is better for me then I will change my mind. But at the moment the evidence points towards that it doesn’t matter as it is potentially dangerous. [/quote]
Have you tasted raw milk or even non-homogenized milk?[/quote]
Yes forget about the science lets talk about taste, it’s good for me because it tastes good for me. I also haven’t tasted Hydrogen Cyanide but I know that’s bad for me.[/quote]
What science? The some of the sources you’ve been posting here have some very glaring contradictions. Your argument is based on raw milk being a health risk due to contamination. One source in particular starts off by saying there is very little risk of illness from raw milk, then reels out a series of diseases which have been reduced by pasteurization (the one you posted on page 4).
Pasteurization came about at a time when pathogens were not as easily controlled, so it isn’t that raw milk is inherently dangerous; more the conditions in which the milk was processed were dirtier and there was a greater risk of the milk being contaminated or cross-contaminated.
Pasteurization allowed, and still allows, milk to be produced in dirtier conditions and on a larger scale. It’s just cleaned at the end. Suppliers of raw milk have to be more stringent with hygiene at the source and that’s partly why raw milk is more expensive.
[/quote]
Reread the post that I have made, read the studies I have posted. You have ether not read the whole post or not understood it. But let me summarise, my points I have made have explained that;
-There is no enought evidence supporting claims that raw milk has any benefits over pasteurised milk.
-Raw milk is potentially dangerous due to both contamination and reasons Proffesor X mentioned.
-macro nutrient are not effected enough for it to matter. And besides you could just drink slightly more.
So to conclude with the evidence I have presented (not all of which say exactly the same thing because that isnt how science works) that it seems that there is no additional benifit to raw milk over other and it could infact be dangerous. And non of you have give any evidence otherwise. And no I feel better on it because we all know about placebo. And this is not a argument about lactose intolerance if you are lactose intolerant just eat lactose free milk or take lactase enzyme when you drink it.
[/quote]
I read the whole post I’m referring to in its entirety - that’s how I spotted the contradiction. The post in question says that raw milk isn’t dangerous then goes on to say how dangerous it is. Are you going to make me post the reference and underline the contradiction?
I’d just like to say I think raw milk isn’t dangerous but I (and my wallet) are sure glad pasteurization/UHT is around to reduce the cost of milk. UHT especially helps greatly to bring down the cost of milk to allow it to be enjoyed by the masses instead of some elitist kind of food that can only be drank once in a blue moon.
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
Actually I have drunk it and probably a lot fresher then any of you have. Although that proves nothing. [/quote]
I doubt that since I had access to it for most of my childhood.[/quote]
That is why I used the word probably, it leaves it open to possibility. Now have you drunk that hydrogen cyanide yet. Or do you wish to construct a counter argument before I move onto organic food. [/quote]
It doesn’t leave it open to possibility when I already posted that I grew up on a dairy farm.
LOL @ comparing hydrogen cyanide to raw milk. [/quote]
It was a simple analogy you don’t need to drink HCN to know that is bad for you.[/quote]
It was a blatant attempt to strawman my post. Raw milk is not like hydrogen cyanide.[/quote]
In my analogy it fits relatively well, scientific evidence suggest both raw milk and HCN are dangerous, you do not need to drink them to find that out. Is that what everyone here has been trying to do to my posts? Discredit them with little explanation of any kind, except one post but I don’t remember who posted it.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I drank milk. I got big. I have better options now so I don’t drink milk much anymore and my lactose intolerance is now devoid of any tolerance. It’s basically yelling racist rhetoric at my tolerance.
I sure am glad I drank it when I did because I needed the calories.
I sure am glad I don’t have to drink it now because I prefer to not shit my pants.[/quote]
^ Haha, I have to say I’ve never had to worry about shitting my pants from drinking lots of milk, but apples… never eat more than 3 apples in a row.
The way I see it, is that as long as it isn’t processed to buggery its fine. If it makes you feel crap don’t eat it, if it doesn’t enjoy it.
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
Actually I have drunk it and probably a lot fresher then any of you have. Although that proves nothing. [/quote]
I doubt that since I had access to it for most of my childhood.[/quote]
That is why I used the word probably, it leaves it open to possibility. Now have you drunk that hydrogen cyanide yet. Or do you wish to construct a counter argument before I move onto organic food. [/quote]
It doesn’t leave it open to possibility when I already posted that I grew up on a dairy farm.
LOL @ comparing hydrogen cyanide to raw milk. [/quote]
It was a simple analogy you don’t need to drink HCN to know that is bad for you.[/quote]
It was a blatant attempt to strawman my post. Raw milk is not like hydrogen cyanide.[/quote]
In my analogy it fits relatively well, scientific evidence suggest both raw milk and HCN are dangerous, you do not need to drink them to find that out. Is that what everyone here has been trying to do to my posts? Discredit them with little explanation of any kind, except one post but I don’t remember who posted it.[/quote]
I’ve given you an explanation and you keep glossing over it. Raw milk is not remotely comparable to hydrogen cyanide. Saying ‘hydrogen cyanide is dangerous, therefore so is raw milk’ is one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve ever read.
Do you pop out on a crisp wintery Sunday morn for a newspaper and a bottle of fresh cyanide?
Most of your argument is cobbled together from various inconclusive sources, which all say that the risk of contamination in raw milk depends on hygiene standards. If raw milk was as bad as you claim, people would have stopped drinking it way before pasteurization was introduced (I’ve already explained why pasteurization became common practice), and they certainly wouldn’t be drinking it now.
[quote]MODOK wrote:
And you are the only person I’ve ever heard make a case the drinking milk straight out of a cows tit is elitist. i think it is probably much more a proletariat activity.
[/quote]
Actually, it doesn’t seem to be much different than hipsters at this point so he may be justified in that opinion.
The milk I drink is certified for interstate sale in California, one of the strictest, progressive, consumer protective states. I’m pretty sure my milk is good. Cows fed grass and organic microgreeens. I’m pretty sure the milk is good. They make 90 day old cheese out of it, so…
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
Actually I have drunk it and probably a lot fresher then any of you have. Â Although that proves nothing. [/quote]
I doubt that since I had access to it for most of my childhood.[/quote]
That is why I used the word probably, it leaves it open to possibility. Now have you drunk that hydrogen cyanide yet. Or do you wish to construct a counter argument before I move onto organic food. [/quote]
It doesn’t leave it open to possibility when I already posted that I grew up on a dairy farm.
LOL @ comparing hydrogen cyanide to raw milk. [/quote]
It was a simple analogy you don’t need to drink HCN to know that is bad for you.[/quote]
It was a blatant attempt to strawman my post. Raw milk is not like hydrogen cyanide.[/quote]
In my analogy it fits relatively well, scientific evidence suggest both raw milk and HCN are dangerous, you do not need to drink them to find that out. Is that what everyone here has been trying to do to my posts? Discredit them with little explanation of any kind, except one post but I don’t remember who posted it.[/quote]
I’ve given you an explanation and you keep glossing over it. Raw milk is not remotely comparable to hydrogen cyanide. Saying ‘hydrogen cyanide is dangerous, therefore so is raw milk’ is one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve ever read.Â
Do you pop out on a crisp wintery Sunday morn for a newspaper and a bottle of fresh cyanide?
Most of your argument is cobbled together from various inconclusive sources, which all say that the risk of contamination in raw milk depends on hygiene standards. If raw milk was as bad as you claim, people would have stopped drinking it way before pasteurization was introduced (I’ve already explained why pasteurization became common practice), and they certainly wouldn’t be drinking it now.
[/quote]
Ok I’m sorry I have had enough of this stupidity.
Professor X could you possible put forth a request for a remedial T Cell. As this person obviously has no basic comprehension skills.
No raw milk is not like fucking HCN it was a joke you are fucking mornonic if you believe that that statement in question has any part in my argument.
And secondly  there is no contradiction in that article that I posted. It said that the risk of the milk it’s self as it comes out of the cow is low but the risk of that milk becoming contaminated after is high and this is what the main risk involved is, and says that the difference between the two is little so isn’t worth any potential risk.Â
People doing something is not a good argument for something being ok. You have the fucking nerve to question my resources but show none of your own, your counter argument is pathetic, invalid and just fucking stupid so come back with a good argument or piss off you mong (don’t know if you have that word where you are but it describes you perfectly)
Some may be wondering why I would spend my time doing this. A few reasons it makes me read my notes and gives me practice on how to construct argument.
Secondly and more importantly people like your self are making a joke my future profession, making bullshit and sometimes dangerous claims so ether back it up with some evidence or fuck off.
I didn’t want this to degenerate into this sort of petty argument. So if we could get this back on track that would be great. I welcome other peoples views if they can back them up.Â
Science continually evolves if new evidence comes to light that says I am wrong I will accept it and change my views. Anyone that doesn’t conduct their beliefs on this system doesn’t believe in logic. You must stay open to change but do not accept it blindly. You should question me but do not dismiss my comments without viewing then unbiasedly.Â
Raw Milk is illegal to sell in Canada.
According to Health Canada:
The number of foodborne illness outbreaks from milk has dramatically decreased since pasteurization of milk was made mandatory by Health Canada in 1991.
An excerpt from an article off my university’s website. My school is known for food science and agriculture:
The pathogenic microorganisms that have been isolated from milk include:
Bacillus cereus Mycobacterium bovis
Brucella abortus Pseudomonas spp.
Campylobacter jejuni Salmonella spp.
Coxiella burnetti Shigella spp.
Cryptosporidium parvum Staphylococcus aureus
Escherichia coli(including O157:H7) Streptococcus spp.
Listeria monocytogenes Yersinia enterocolitica
Some of these microorganisms can have long term health effects or cause death. It is acknowledged that raw milk was a source of tuberculosis, before strict laws regarding diseased cow culling and pasteurization helped to virtually eliminate the disease in Canada.
Yeah, I’ll stick to the pasteurized kind thanks.
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
The milk I drink is certified for interstate sale in California, one of the strictest, progressive, consumer protective states. I’m pretty sure my milk is good. Cows fed grass and organic microgreeens. I’m pretty sure the milk is good. They make 90 day old cheese out of it, so…[/quote]
Here raw milk is illegal for sale, but cheeses made out of raw milk are not.
Though, in one of the books I own on nutrition, the author tries to make the case that raw milk gets unfairly singled out.
Setting aside safety, raw milk destroys pasteurized milk’s in terms of health/nutrition.
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
Actually I have drunk it and probably a lot fresher then any of you have. � Although that proves nothing. [/quote]
I doubt that since I had access to it for most of my childhood.[/quote]
That is why I used the word probably, it leaves it open to possibility. Now have you drunk that hydrogen cyanide yet. Or do you wish to construct a counter argument before I move onto organic food. [/quote]
It doesn’t leave it open to possibility when I already posted that I grew up on a dairy farm.
LOL @ comparing hydrogen cyanide to raw milk. [/quote]
It was a simple analogy you don’t need to drink HCN to know that is bad for you.[/quote]
It was a blatant attempt to strawman my post. Raw milk is not like hydrogen cyanide.[/quote]
In my analogy it fits relatively well, scientific evidence suggest both raw milk and HCN are dangerous, you do not need to drink them to find that out. Is that what everyone here has been trying to do to my posts? Discredit them with little explanation of any kind, except one post but I don’t remember who posted it.[/quote]
I’ve given you an explanation and you keep glossing over it. Raw milk is not remotely comparable to hydrogen cyanide. Saying ‘hydrogen cyanide is dangerous, therefore so is raw milk’ is one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve ever read.Ã?Â
Do you pop out on a crisp wintery Sunday morn for a newspaper and a bottle of fresh cyanide?
Most of your argument is cobbled together from various inconclusive sources, which all say that the risk of contamination in raw milk depends on hygiene standards. If raw milk was as bad as you claim, people would have stopped drinking it way before pasteurization was introduced (I’ve already explained why pasteurization became common practice), and they certainly wouldn’t be drinking it now.
[/quote]
Ok I’m sorry I have had enough of this stupidity.
Professor X could you possible put forth a request for a remedial T Cell. As this person obviously has no basic comprehension skills.
No raw milk is not like fucking HCN it was a joke you are fucking mornonic if you believe that that statement in question has any part in my argument.
And secondly Ã? there is no contradiction in that article that I posted. It said that the risk of the milk it’s self as it comes out of the cow is low but the risk of that milk becoming contaminated after is high and this is what the main risk involved is, and says that the difference between the two is little so isn’t worth any potential risk.Ã?Â
People doing something is not a good argument for something being ok. You have the fucking nerve to question my resources but show none of your own, your counter argument is pathetic, invalid and just fucking stupid so come back with a good argument or piss offÃ? you mong (don’t know if you have that word where you are but it describes you perfectly)
Some may be wondering why I would spend my time doing this. A few reasons it makes me read my notes and gives me practice on how to construct argument.
Secondly and more importantly people like your self are making a joke my future profession, making bullshit and sometimes dangerous claims so ether back it up with some evidence or fuck off.
I didn’t want this to degenerate into this sort of petty argument. So if we could get this back on track that would be great. I welcome other peoples views if they can back them up.Ã?Â
Science continually evolves if new evidence comes to light that says I am wrong I will accept it and change my views. Anyone that doesn’t conduct their beliefs on this system doesn’t believe in logic. You must stay open to change but do not accept it blindly. You should question me but do not dismiss my comments without viewing then unbiasedly.Ã? [/quote]
T.R.O.L.L
[quote]TomKaminski wrote:
Secondly and more importantly people like your self are making a joke my future profession, making bullshit and sometimes dangerous claims so ether back it up with some evidence or fuck off.
 [/quote]
Ah yes, the explosion of butthurt I predicted.
Because it is raw and has not been treated by large scale distributors or genetically altered by GMO’s; will it perish sooner than pasturized milk?
[quote]TORO wrote:
Because it is raw and has not been treated by large scale distributors or genetically altered by GMO’s; will it perish sooner than pasturized milk?[/quote]
Yes, for sure. You could ask the person you buy it from what the shelf life will be.
Raw milk is out of the question, but if I’m going to drink a lot of milk.
In terms of whats better for you
Organic > Whole > 2%
Correct?