Sheiko Down In the Bayou

I got a look at #29. I have a few problems with it from my experience.

Squats:
In general, too little weight. Having 70% - 75% more of the time is just cute. The point was to continually move 80% plus so that your body gets used to heavy weights, but not too fatigued that you’re doing singles w/ 90%+ all the time. Honestly, I think doing anythign less than 80% x3x5 is not putting in enough volume. Even still, volume can be deciving. I’d rather be lifting 80% for 15 total reps than 75% for 18 just for the fact that once you get strong enough, that 5% is a big jump.

Example. My squat is based on a 242.5kg max (not real, but it works for me). My work set at 80% is 195 kg (430 lbs). If I dropped down to 75%, that number is 180 kg (396 lbs). Way too much of a difference in my eyes. Its a good idea to start w/ say 70-75% for a beginner, but after that, just get stronger and continually push 80% and more each workout. Your work capacity with heavy weights will be much better.

Bench:
The bench set up mimics Sheiko’s other than changing up the days a bit. I can’t really complain. If you bench raw, I would say that doing CG w/ squats and then heavy bench on another day is all you need. Instead of doing the work up to 2x2, then moving back down to 12x1, I’d rather either do overhead work OR a specific movement you feel is important. If you are using a shirt, then stick to it as raw work doesn’t hurt and you still get to use your shirt every week.

Deadlift:
Here’s where we are going to differ for obvious reasons. I cannot do that much volume b/c of a back injury. Its really taking a lot out of me to work up to doing 80% x3x5 w/ deads. I won’t push it past this as I don’t see any benefit for myself and I don’t want to re-injure my back. I need more volume, but “more volume” equates to doing triples instead of always working up to 90%+ for 1 rep.

For you though, this is your call. You say that twice in a workout is too much. Well, listen to your body. Its hard to recover from deadlifting, so just do what works. If you think that alternating rack pulls and deads work, then DO IT!

I would so a secondary movement instead of the 2nd deadlift. Maybe DB Rows, Zercher Squats? Hell, Even stone lifting or some strongman-ish thing if that works. Its weird what can stimulate deadlift. Just throwing out some ideas.

From what I’ve read, Shieko envisioned this routine to be totally changed by people to suit their needs. I do believe though that really turning down the percentages changes the routine too much. It seems that moving 80%+ all the time is stressed if you look at the original routine.

Moving down to lower weights seems just too easy for someone with a decent strength base. 80% keeps you challenged, and in my case, has not been too much to force me to plateau.

Personally, I would stray from playing around with routines that have already been altered. Go back, look at the original sheiko plan:
http://www.elitefts.com/sheiko/Sheikotrcomp.htm
And #37
http://www.elitefts.com/documents/Sheiko37.htm

37 looks to be the same, just easier to read. Hooper’s version has a little more volume (3x5 w/ squat on week 1 instead of 2x5). I am no beast only squatting 507 @ 190 w/ minimal equipment, but this came after being stuck at 440 for a LONG tie. Hooper is a squatting monster, but he has seemingly produced the squat portion to a standard that even poor lifters such as myself can gain a good bit of strength in less than a year. I did gain weight too, but I went from 440 @ 175 w/ a metal V-type viking & wraps to 507 @ 190 w/ inzer power pants and wraps.

The bench portion works well too. I did not need to modifiy it too much. See how you are after 2 cycles, then adjust accordingly.

Deadlifts, I find just deadlifting 3 times in the 4 weeks works. Week 1, work up to 80% 3x5, week 2, work up to a heavy triple using 35 lbs plates (to increase rom) then working up to a heavy single (not a max). Week 3 is nothing, max week 4. I seem to be able to max every 4 weeks on all movements w/ no issues, but if you don’t wanna do this, follow the routine, just maybe cut out the day 4 (Hooper did originally) decided whats best deadlift wise. Just try to stick to the original routine as it might jus work and you never know. If you DO know rack pulls do work, then do it.

Deadlifting every week can be positive, just don’t kill yourself in the process and take breaks as needed. Deadlift seems harder to fix as sometimes, doing a "pointless) exercise might just get you over the hump.

I have had a lot of problems moving my deadlift over the years, so I might not be the best person to ask. Your idea sounds fine. You might wanna bug hanely (as if he isn’t bugged enough) about his deadlift routine. You could also just read over what he was doing while on sheiko. It might shed some light.

I wanted to give a general overview of the routine b/c I felt that you along with others might want a little insight from someone who has used it and actually gotten stronger. I am no weight lifting genius, just a guy who has a little experience with this routine. I was lucky enough to start out using it BEFORE the sheiko craze started.

Really good post there bro. It give you a real sense of satsifaction to have gotten in there with Sheiko before ET started posted on Elite and everyone went mad for it doesn’t it? I know it does for me!

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Really good post there bro. It give you a real sense of satsifaction to have gotten in there with Sheiko before ET started posted on Elite and everyone went mad for it doesn’t it? I know it does for me![/quote]

I remember doing westside and just getting fed up with an ongoing plateau. I figired I’d try somethign different and did about 3 cycles w/ a routine i created which where i would do 5x6 on week one, 5x5 week 2, 4x4 week 3, 3x3 week 2, then start over w/ 5x5 and work up to 2x2 (heavy weight though). This really helped build up my stamina, but honestly, sheiko tore it right back down and showed me just how out of shape I was. 3x5 was x10 harder than 5x5.

I got the idea to do sheiko after hearing hooper’s description of the routine on a pure powerlifting podcast. I figured, he’s just a guy, like anyone else, lol, so I will try it. Even Hooper commented that the routine looked insane to him, a guy squatting in the 700s +. It is insane… at first. Then you get userd to it after 2 or 3 cycles and you think, how did I ever let this routine slip by me. I had seen it on the internet, but honestly thought it was a joke or just something insane.

I can’t see myself changing back to westside anytime soon or any other routine for that matter.

I agree on the 80% arguments. It’s not so heavy that you will not recover to the next workout, and at least for me not so heavy that if I totally miss the groove and fall forwards or something, I still will get the weight up.

Yet it is still heavy enough for the weights to feel really heavy, and you have to stay focused.

[quote]Synthetickiller wrote:
I got a look at #29. I have a few problems with it from my experience.

Squats:
In general, too little weight. Having 70% - 75% more of the time is just cute. The point was to continually move 80% plus so that your body gets used to heavy weights, but not too fatigued that you’re doing singles w/ 90%+ all the time. Honestly, I think doing anythign less than 80% x3x5 is not putting in enough volume. Even still, volume can be deciving. I’d rather be lifting 80% for 15 total reps than 75% for 18 just for the fact that once you get strong enough, that 5% is a big jump.

Example. My squat is based on a 242.5kg max (not real, but it works for me). My work set at 80% is 195 kg (430 lbs). If I dropped down to 75%, that number is 180 kg (396 lbs). Way too much of a difference in my eyes. Its a good idea to start w/ say 70-75% for a beginner, but after that, just get stronger and continually push 80% and more each workout. Your work capacity with heavy weights will be much better.

Bench:
The bench set up mimics Sheiko’s other than changing up the days a bit. I can’t really complain. If you bench raw, I would say that doing CG w/ squats and then heavy bench on another day is all you need. Instead of doing the work up to 2x2, then moving back down to 12x1, I’d rather either do overhead work OR a specific movement you feel is important. If you are using a shirt, then stick to it as raw work doesn’t hurt and you still get to use your shirt every week.

Deadlift:
Here’s where we are going to differ for obvious reasons. I cannot do that much volume b/c of a back injury. Its really taking a lot out of me to work up to doing 80% x3x5 w/ deads. I won’t push it past this as I don’t see any benefit for myself and I don’t want to re-injure my back. I need more volume, but “more volume” equates to doing triples instead of always working up to 90%+ for 1 rep.

For you though, this is your call. You say that twice in a workout is too much. Well, listen to your body. Its hard to recover from deadlifting, so just do what works. If you think that alternating rack pulls and deads work, then DO IT!

I would so a secondary movement instead of the 2nd deadlift. Maybe DB Rows, Zercher Squats? Hell, Even stone lifting or some strongman-ish thing if that works. Its weird what can stimulate deadlift. Just throwing out some ideas.

From what I’ve read, Shieko envisioned this routine to be totally changed by people to suit their needs. I do believe though that really turning down the percentages changes the routine too much. It seems that moving 80%+ all the time is stressed if you look at the original routine.

Moving down to lower weights seems just too easy for someone with a decent strength base. 80% keeps you challenged, and in my case, has not been too much to force me to plateau.

Personally, I would stray from playing around with routines that have already been altered. Go back, look at the original sheiko plan:
http://www.elitefts.com/sheiko/Sheikotrcomp.htm
And #37
http://www.elitefts.com/documents/Sheiko37.htm

37 looks to be the same, just easier to read. Hooper’s version has a little more volume (3x5 w/ squat on week 1 instead of 2x5). I am no beast only squatting 507 @ 190 w/ minimal equipment, but this came after being stuck at 440 for a LONG tie. Hooper is a squatting monster, but he has seemingly produced the squat portion to a standard that even poor lifters such as myself can gain a good bit of strength in less than a year. I did gain weight too, but I went from 440 @ 175 w/ a metal V-type viking & wraps to 507 @ 190 w/ inzer power pants and wraps.

The bench portion works well too. I did not need to modifiy it too much. See how you are after 2 cycles, then adjust accordingly.

Deadlifts, I find just deadlifting 3 times in the 4 weeks works. Week 1, work up to 80% 3x5, week 2, work up to a heavy triple using 35 lbs plates (to increase rom) then working up to a heavy single (not a max). Week 3 is nothing, max week 4. I seem to be able to max every 4 weeks on all movements w/ no issues, but if you don’t wanna do this, follow the routine, just maybe cut out the day 4 (Hooper did originally) decided whats best deadlift wise. Just try to stick to the original routine as it might jus work and you never know. If you DO know rack pulls do work, then do it.

Deadlifting every week can be positive, just don’t kill yourself in the process and take breaks as needed. Deadlift seems harder to fix as sometimes, doing a "pointless) exercise might just get you over the hump.

I have had a lot of problems moving my deadlift over the years, so I might not be the best person to ask. Your idea sounds fine. You might wanna bug hanely (as if he isn’t bugged enough) about his deadlift routine. You could also just read over what he was doing while on sheiko. It might shed some light.

I wanted to give a general overview of the routine b/c I felt that you along with others might want a little insight from someone who has used it and actually gotten stronger. I am no weight lifting genius, just a guy who has a little experience with this routine. I was lucky enough to start out using it BEFORE the sheiko craze started.[/quote]

Excellent response and much appreciated. I’ll let you know how it goes when I do a cycle! Also what are your thoughts on “Deadlift - bands from bottom”? Hanley I’d like to hear your opinion to if you don’t mind!

[quote]TseanS wrote:
Excellent response and much appreciated. I’ll let you know how it goes when I do a cycle! Also what are your thoughts on “Deadlift - bands from bottom”? Hanley I’d like to hear your opinion to if you don’t mind![/quote]

I used to do a lot of pulls w/ bands. I actually own a jumpstretch sumo deadlift platform. Honestly one of the better investments I’ve ever made. Its simply easier to set up w/ bands. If you have the cash, its worth it IMO.

Doing banded deads is a great way to build up speed/lockout strength when something like rack pulls aren’t doing the trick. Its also nice b/c you simulate the entire deadlift pull instead of a partial pull. My experience with rack pulls is not a good one, but they work for some. I found banded deads to a good substitute in my case.

You could use banded deads to either warm up before doing a heavy dead routine (using them like an overload mechanism) or just doing an entire deadlift workout with them. Both provide benefits.

Thanks I’ll see how the rack pulls work first then look into getting bands.

Skipped Day 2
WEEK 3:Day 3
Bench:
20x20 (44 lbs)
45x10 (99 lbs)
75x5 (165 lbs) all reps paused
85x4 (187 lbs)
105x3x2 (231 lbs)
125x2x5 (275 lbs) harder than it should have been.

I’ll get my bench straight when the summer starts.

[b]WEEK 4: Day 1[/b]
20x10 (44 lbs) add briefs
75x5 (165 lbs)
120x5 (264 lbs)
145x4 (319 lbs)
170x3 (374 lbs)
195x2 (430 lbs) add inzer wraps & belt
215x1 (473 lbs)
225x1 (496 lbs) add black metal wraps & belt
237.5x1 (523 lbs) PR, 2.75x body weight

ALL TIME SQUAT PR! It was JUST below parallel, but was enough to be legit.

Nice squat! Well done!

Fcuking hell. You’re getting annoyingly strong.

125 2x5 bench and 237.5 squat is great at your weight.

Does working regularly in the squat gear help alot?? What sorta carryover are you getting now??

I’ve started working weekly in my bench shirt and it’s having a massive difference.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Fcuking hell. You’re getting annoyingly strong.

125 2x5 bench and 237.5 squat is great at your weight.

Does working regularly in the squat gear help alot?? What sorta carryover are you getting now??

I’ve started working weekly in my bench shirt and it’s having a massive difference.[/quote]

I’ll address both.

Squat:
I work up to 60% x4 (one or two sets depending on the week) w/ no gear, no belt. 70% x3x2 is done w/ just briefs. I find that I get far more support from the belt than the briefs. I then go full gear 80%+. No matter how much I progress, I always keep 60% and lower entirely raw, 70% only briefs and 80% + always full gear.

A problem does arise though. The briefs (power pants) are ultimately crap. They help, BUT these do not compare to suit like your titan or a metal. I think that when I eventually get a suit, i’ll do 80% w/ straps down other than the last set or 2. I’d continue the same w/ 85% and go straps up 90% +. I am just guessing here and I have not tested this with sheiko. You probably know more about it than me honestly. For my equipment set up, how I add gear over the workout seems to be the best possible to keep up raw strength, but allow for maximal carryover from gear.

I think my carryover is about 100 lbs. That constitues a belt, power pants and black metal wraps. I only max in the Metals. I do all my other work in inzer warps. That puts my raw around 425 I guess. I haven’t maxed raw in a long time. Its just not necessary.

Bench:
It sucks. I used to do 275x3x5. I haven’t kept up w/ it at all. Honestly, if you look at my log, there’s very little bench work. I’m amazed I can even crank that out. I was up to 300 raw w/ a pause. I need to get back to that point.

Benching in a shirt is the best thing you can do for a competition. I don’t think raw work helps b/c the shirts are just so different groove wise.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
You’re getting annoyingly strong.

[/quote]

hahaha.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Hanley wrote:
You’re getting annoyingly strong.

hahaha.[/quote]

I WISH! I think annoying will be 606 lbs (275kg) while staying under 198 (90kg). Then I can annoying the !@#$ outta you guys. Until then, keep giving me a hard time. I need to get my act together.

EDIT: Btw, for anyone keeping track, info for the squat: 523 lbs @ 190 lbs body weight. If my deadlift was only that good!

WEEK 4: day 2

Deadlift:
75x5 (165 lbs) add briefs
105x1 (231 lbs)
125x1 (275 lbs)
145x1 (319 lbs)
165x1 (363 lbs) add belt
185x1 (407 lbs)
205x1 (451 lbs)
211x0 (465 lbs) went for a PR, but my back said no, wouldn’t budge.

205 kg was incredibly easily. I think if I went for 210 kg first, I’d have gotten it. I think I finally found a deadlift routine that works! Now I’ll have to modify it and get to 507 lbs.

[quote]Synthetickiller wrote:

I WISH! I think annoying will be 606 lbs (275kg) while staying under 198 (90kg). Then I can annoying the !@#$ outta you guys. Until then, keep giving me a hard time. I need to get my act together.

[/quote]

psh…523, you call that a decent squat? WEAK!

jk :-p :wink:

OFF WEEK:

I usually take a week off after a 4 week cycle. I try to get in some light work, but that rarely happens. Even though I have a final tomorrow, I decided to get in a really quick and light squat session. Higher rep top set than I am used to, but felt good. Here’s how it went:

Squats:
20x10x2 (44 lbs)
75x5 (165 lbs)
125x3 (275 lbs)
145x10 (319 lbs) - raw, no belt

Body weight: 190.9 lbs this morning

Hard set b/c my conditioning is horrible. All reps were at least parallel or deeper. I can’t tell b/c I had no one calling me up. I hate sets of 10, they are so hard. I am sure at least 7 of the 10 were below parallel. My form did break down and my knees came in. As usual, something to work on.

I should have squatted on Sunday, but didn’t have a chance. At least I got something in so when I go heavy again, it won’t be as much of a shock.

Just got done reading the last couple of pages again – I’ve followed your log for a while with interest.

I’ve done several Sheiko cycles and found benefit and cost. I got your Hooper alternate from you a while back but haven’t adapted it yet. I think it’s time.

My experience on Sheiko was that high volume became trivial and my squat increased dramatically, but my bench suffered. I plateaued pretty remarkably on Sheiko. As I’ve read this morning and thought, I realize that I had sacrificed the fourth day and always launched right back into day one at the end of each week. I essentially abandoned assistance work, which I’m sure cost me, particularly on the bench.

Anyway, rambling. Sorry. I returned to Westside and made huge gains, but have the itch to return to Sheiko for a modified cycle like yours. I appreciate the thoughtful responses you’ve given here – you’ve taken a lot of time to relate your thinking, and I appreciate it.

Given this thread and Hanley’s, do we care about another? Is it useful to post more workout logs, particularly when they start to look a lot alike? If so, I’ll post my next, from concept to execution. Might be more revealing about me than about lifting, since cycle designs are more about our weaknesses than our strengths. What do you think? Sorry about the rambling hijack.

New Cycle:

WEEK 1: day 1

Squat:
20x10 (44 lbs)
75x5 (165 lbs)
125x5 (275 lbs)
150x4x2 (330 lbs)
175x3x2 (385 lbs) add briefs
200x3x5 (441 lbs) add belt, add wraps

200 kg was hard, although I managed to get through all the triples. I feel proud of this. A year ago, my 1RM was 200 kg. Now I am doing triples w/ it in less equipment. Next week should be much easier.

CG Bench:
20x20 (44 lbs)
45x10 (99 lbs)
75x5 (165 lbs)
90x4 (198 lbs)
105x3x2 (231 lbs)
120x3,x3,x2,x3 (264 lbs)

Missed 3rd rep on the 3rd set, somehow got through the 4th set. Wrists hurt so I stopped.

I know I should be doing front squats, but my back is burnt out from doing 320x10 on Thursday and the heavy work sets today. Better to be safe than sorry.

[quote]sdspeedracer wrote:
Just got done reading the last couple of pages again – I’ve followed your log for a while with interest.

I’ve done several Sheiko cycles and found benefit and cost. I got your Hooper alternate from you a while back but haven’t adapted it yet. I think it’s time.

My experience on Sheiko was that high volume became trivial and my squat increased dramatically, but my bench suffered. I plateaued pretty remarkably on Sheiko. As I’ve read this morning and thought, I realize that I had sacrificed the fourth day and always launched right back into day one at the end of each week. I essentially abandoned assistance work, which I’m sure cost me, particularly on the bench.

Anyway, rambling. Sorry. I returned to Westside and made huge gains, but have the itch to return to Sheiko for a modified cycle like yours. I appreciate the thoughtful responses you’ve given here – you’ve taken a lot of time to relate your thinking, and I appreciate it.

Given this thread and Hanley’s, do we care about another? Is it useful to post more workout logs, particularly when they start to look a lot alike? If so, I’ll post my next, from concept to execution. Might be more revealing about me than about lifting, since cycle designs are more about our weaknesses than our strengths. What do you think? Sorry about the rambling hijack.[/quote]

Here’s my thoughts on this topic.

Westside & Sheiko: WS worked well for me… to a point. Then began failing as I didn’t know enough. I moved back to basics, then to sheiko and been here since.

Thanks for appreciating my thread. I didn’t think I had that many ideas, lol.

Honesty, I post online b/c its easier to me to keep track of my routine here than in a notebook. Its selfishness really. I post on another forum, but its so small, few people know about it. My routine, although it does change is not “ever-evolving.” It will only change when change it required, and not for the sake of change.

If you want to post, please do. The more people with ideas on the same topic, the better. I have only been doing sheiko for 10 or 11 months, so I am a n00b when it comes to this routine in terms of years dedicated and the gains possible.

I have been meaning to put in some supplementary exercises, but as you can see with what i posted tonight, sometimes I just can’t due to an old injury I have that I am working around. Hanely’s is also interesting as he is a lot stronger than I am in every lift and for me, it gives me ideas of attempts when handling heavier weights.

Please, post away. I will most likely learn something as my bench has been getting crappy. A word of advice. If you look at my routine, each day of every week is the same basically. A heavy squat, deadlift, and bench day, in that order.

Sheiko tends to let the bench drop off after week 1.

I don’t allow this and changed up the routine to fix that. I also noticed a basic set up that works.

Day 1: Squat, bench squat

(1st two same as sheiko, 3rd lift is a variation), THEN do something supplemental, one or two exercises w/ high volume, sets of 10 - 15.

Day 2: Deadlift, Bench, Deadlift

(I do deadlift, 35 lbs plate deads, skip deads, then max (thats each week 1 to 4)) the bench which is now an overhead movement which I have been working with to get shoulder / pressing strength up, and another deadlift which could be zercher squats, DB rows or anything you think might stimulate your deadlift).

Day 3: Bench, Squat, Bench

(I find that doing heavy comp grip bench works best, follow by squats from the bottom possition of the rack, at least for me, then DB presses w/ 75’s to warm up then doing a sets of 6x5 not with a max weight, but something around 80 - 90% so that I get a good carry-over to my bench, this works best and my bench DOES move when I do DB presses. I’ve been slacking).

I’d also mention this. Other than heavy squat (briefs, wraps, belt) and heavy deadlift (briefs belt) I am totally raw with my lifts. I know that Hanely does vartiations and this is a good way to compare training for a raw or semi-equipped lifter vs full lifter and the way each uses raw training etc.

I’ll say it again, I primarily psot for myself. Its so much easier for me to hop on the computer and search for something I might have done 3 cycles ago instead of flipping through a book. All the benefits I get from comments and all the benefits others get from my log are great too. There can never really be too much info, but my primary concern was never really to help anyone else, it just sorta came into being…

Enough of my rant, now I have to go read more about overclocking bloomfield. I am such a big nerd :D.

WEEK 1: Day 2

Deadlift:
75x5 (165 lbs)
105x5 (231 lbs)
125x3 (275 lbs)
150x3 (331 lbs) add briefs
175x3,x3,x2,x3 (385 lbs) add belt

Missed the 3rd rep of the 3rd set. Had to reset the bar and just couldn’t get it more than a few inches off the ground. Somehow got the 4th set, decide to quit here.

I have a stiff / sore neck, the left side which is caused I believe by my scoliosis. My upper left back is semi-tight today. I think this is keeping my neck tight. Its been like this for a few days. Amazing I can even pull.

Cleaned out my entire garage today, so I’ll chalk that up to very low intensity cardio and some upper back work (picking up stuff).