Shaping Chest

Training Bodybuilding
41

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
One last thing … even the formulas used the calculate body fat are not very accurate. They were created based on average male (and female) evaluations. It doesn’t apply well to athletes and muscular individuals as it grossly underestimate BF %.

As an anecdote I had my BF measured by a Ph.D. in exercise science that actually teaches a university class on how to perform various physiological tests. And my result came out at around 1.5% using the 7 folds formula. At the time I was closer to 10% Just goes to show how reliable these formulas are. If you are an average person (15-18% body fat without much muscle mass) it will be relatively accurate. But with athletes, no way.[/quote]

That is why I think the focus on body fat percentage for trained individuals or even “nonfat” individuals is a waste of time for most people. What does it really matter if this kid is 8.5% body fat or 11.6% body fat? Either way, he is skinny and needs some more size on him if his goal is to build enough chest mass for it to “hang” at all or create a differentaion between his abs and his chest. I think this obsession with bf% has gotten a little out of hand.

I could see the use of bf% when dieting, especially for those who compete when the goal is to hold onto as much muscle as possible. Otherwise, that number really doesn’t mean much at all.

42

[quote]Kael231 wrote:
It took quite a while to build myself up, after all it’s harder to build muscle from nothing than it is to build muscle from fat.

[/quote]

The above statement is not true. Fat does not turn into muscle! This is just another myth that the “guys at the gym” came up with. You seem like you are starting to listen to some of the advice given. Keep and open mind, read, read, read and you should be fine.

43

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I could see the use of bf% when dieting, especially for those who compete when the goal is to hold onto as much muscle as possible. Otherwise, that number really doesn’t mean much at all.[/quote]

Agreed. I do use calipers this way, but I do not calculate body fat percentage. However I record all the skin folds and try to improve them, considering that in contest shape all folds should be 1mm (maximum of 2mm).

So the goal is to lose mm, not % body fat.

44

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Actually, that isn’t completely true. Most EMG studies have shown INCLINES to affect the pec minor more. I do flat and inclines. The only reason I would recommend someone to add declines as a priority is if their shoulders are constantly taking the brunt of most of the force during the movement. [/quote]

Well, its been a while since I saw the EMG so I may have been mistaken, but I do remember that it was rated as the best for overall recruitment. Also, I am guilty of confusing the pec minor with the clavicular pec major. Oops. I should know better.

45

[quote]Eidolos wrote:
While I don’t disagree with those two presses I do disagree with EMG data as criteria for exercise selection.

More activation doesn’t necessarily mean more development.

I believe EMG activity is greatest for the hamstring in the leg curl and less so for a SLDL. However a much higher load can be utilized in a SLDL than leg curl, thus I believe it has more application for BB purposes (and much more).[/quote]

However, in this case, we aren’t talking about flyes vs. presses. The EMG analysis was comparing presses. In terms of loading, for most people, there isn’t a huge difference between their flat and decline press numbers. In this scenario, if one were able to recruit more motor units using the same load, they would probably get better development.

Now, there might be flaws in the EMG study. For example, what if the participants were like CT, and DaFreak, and were shoulder dominant pressers? This would explain why the decline press activated more Pectoral motor units.

Anyway, I guess my take home message would be use a variety of presses, incline, flat, decline, wide-grip, narrow-grip, etc. (Not all in the same workout of course)

46

[quote]apayne wrote:
Kael231 wrote:
It took quite a while to build myself up, after all it’s harder to build muscle from nothing than it is to build muscle from fat.

The above statement is not true. Fat does not turn into muscle! This is just another myth that the “guys at the gym” came up with. You seem like you are starting to listen to some of the advice given. Keep and open mind, read, read, read and you should be fine.[/quote]

I don?t know if that is entirely untrue. People who were overweight when they started to lift weights tend to put on mass easier IMHO. I could think of a few reasons why it could be that way, but having enormous energy reserves stored in your fat cells should make it easier to build muscle when consuming enough protein. To have that much energy to build muscle that “big” person carries around in the first place, a lean person would have to eat like crazy?

47

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
BTW, here’s a little graphic I just created which described the function and structure of the pectoral muscle. As you can see the clavicular head (upper pec) and sternal head (rest of the pec) do have a slightly different function. However the sternal head itself only has one, so when you recruit this muscle group it works in its whole. There is no such thing as an outer or inner pec because the muscle fibers run all the way from one attachment to the other; there is no vertical division. [/quote]

Thanks for the expert knowledge on this issue CT. I think sometimes, we “physique athletes” (at least at the beginning stages) subconsciously overlook what may be anatomically/physiologically impossible in the hopes of a little self-improvement. I know I’ve been guilty of it in the past.

In any case, the old adage of the bodybuilder as a sculptor is so true. The sculptor must first pile on lumps of clay to build up the figure. It is only at the later stages when the sculptor uses a fine tool to “tweak” his work.

In other words, the foundation must be there first…just an observation.

48

Figure this out and get a prize!

While I agree with what is being said about pec function on paper, I do not from practical experience.

I certainly notice a difference in development depending on my chest exercise. I originally listened to the classic advice of “just do bench” and ended up with “outer” pec development, but not much else.

Decline has not only added a lower line to my pec, but I also feel a stronger contraction in that area when performing this type of exercise.

I also only feel a contraction in the “centre” of my chest when my arm is fully adducted.

Then again, maybe it’s just placebo effect…

49

…this is in response to adding weight starting lean or heftier…

While puttig on “weight” is probably easier for someone starting off from a heavier bodytype (ie. fatter for lack of being PC,) I believe I’ve read comparisons before that showed the the weight gained is more adipose tissue than lean mass. Whereas, someone that’s leaner to begin with will gain less overall “weight” but more will be from lean mass. So I guess it just boils down to…do you just want weight or do you want muscle?

Then again, I’m drawing all this from memory and could be completely wrong…if so, I apologize in advance.

50

[quote]David Barr wrote:
Figure this out and get a prize!

While I agree with what is being said about pec function on paper, I do not from practical experience.

I certainly notice a difference in development depending on my chest exercise. I originally listened to the classic advice of “just do bench” and ended up with “outer” pec development, but not much else.

Decline has not only added a lower line to my pec, but I also feel a stronger contraction in that area when performing this type of exercise.

I also only feel a contraction in the “centre” of my chest when my arm is fully adducted.

Then again, maybe it’s just placebo effect…[/quote]

Maybe you, for one reason or another, started to “focuse more on the target muscle” that you were working. Therefore inducing local hypertrophy via increased motor unit activation.

From Arnold’s Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding: (232-33)

"6. Mind in the muscle. The key to success in your workouts is to get the mind into the muscle, rather than thinking about the weight itself. When you think about the weight instead of the muscle, you can’t really feel what the muscle is doing. You lose control. Instead of stretching and contracting the muscle with deep concentration, you are simply exerting brute strength. So you end up not working to the limits of your range of motion, not contracting and extending the muscle in a smooth, intense, controlled manner.

For example, when I am doing Barbell Curls, I am visualizing my biceps as mountains–not just big, but huge. And because I am thinking of the muscle, I can feel everything that is happening to it. I know whether or not I have fully stretched it at the bottom of the movement and whether I am getting a full, complete contraction at the top."

Just a thought. I’m guessing that no research has been done on this so it’s just anecdotal…

51

[quote]tiotheminstrel wrote:
While puttig on “weight” is probably easier for someone starting off from a heavier bodytype (ie. fatter for lack of being PC,) I believe I’ve read comparisons before that showed the the weight gained is more adipose tissue than lean mass. Whereas, someone that’s leaner to begin with will gain less overall “weight” but more will be from lean mass. So I guess it just boils down to…do you just want weight or do you want muscle?

Then again, I’m drawing all this from memory and could be completely wrong…if so, I apologize in advance.[/quote]

I?m not talking about gaining weight. I am talking about staying at the same weight or even losing it when starting to lose weight. But I also don?t know. Does anyone?

52

[quote]orion wrote:
tiotheminstrel wrote:
While puttig on “weight” is probably easier for someone starting off from a heavier bodytype (ie. fatter for lack of being PC,) I believe I’ve read comparisons before that showed the the weight gained is more adipose tissue than lean mass. Whereas, someone that’s leaner to begin with will gain less overall “weight” but more will be from lean mass. So I guess it just boils down to…do you just want weight or do you want muscle?

Then again, I’m drawing all this from memory and could be completely wrong…if so, I apologize in advance.

I?m not talking about gaining weight. I am talking about staying at the same weight or even losing it when starting to lose weight. But I also don?t know. Does anyone?
[/quote]

I agree that gaining muscle will probably come easier to someone (assuming decent genetics) who has carried more weight in the past or who is not afraid of bulking up. I have seen it in my own training and most people who even seem to make much progress while remaining much leaner were also those who claim to have held more body weight in the past. I don’t think that is a coincidence.

53

[quote]David Barr wrote:
Figure this out and get a prize!

While I agree with what is being said about pec function on paper, I do not from practical experience.

I certainly notice a difference in development depending on my chest exercise. I originally listened to the classic advice of “just do bench” and ended up with “outer” pec development, but not much else.

Decline has not only added a lower line to my pec, but I also feel a stronger contraction in that area when performing this type of exercise.

I also only feel a contraction in the “centre” of my chest when my arm is fully adducted.

Then again, maybe it’s just placebo effect…[/quote]

I’m sorry, but if you didn’t have a “line” between your stomach and pecs, it is because your pecs were simply not carrying much size at all, not because your “outer pecs” were more developed. The same fibers that are at your “outer pecs” are the same ones at your “inner pecs”. They run horizontally meaning you can’t build up half a muscle fiber.

54

Christian Thibaudeau you have got to be the most patient guy ever. I can not believe the amount of effort you take to educate even the most basic beginners. I think a lot of people loose their patience the more they learn but you always seem enthusiastic to share you knowledge.

Here’s a little story to add to the discussion of pec training. After a layoff from training, I went to the gym and did only incline presses for my chest (along with other stuff for the rest of my body). The next day my upper chest was very sore BUT the rest of my chest was not. Not at all. Also, I can flex my upper chest at the exclusion of my lower chest and vise-versa. I can’t say the same for “inner” and “outer” chest though.

From my own experience it seems possible to target upper and lower portions of the chest and it also makes sense on paper when looking at the anatomy of the pecs. I am not convinced that one can specifically alter “inner” and “outer” chest development however.

The “outer chest” may appear thicker and to grow more rapidly than the “inner” but I think that has to so with how the muscle fibers attach in the “inner” vs. “outer” chest areas. There is a larger area for the fibers to attach to at the inner chest area (sternum/clavicle) so the muscle looks thinner there whereas the fibers clump together more or are more densely packed together at the outer chest area making them look thicker there.

I think a few things might explain why some feel the inner chest more in certain exercises. You’ll notice that certain chest fibers attach near the bottom of the chest, some almost running vertically. If you are mostly stressing these with say a decline press or dips, you probably won’t feel your “inner” chest much because the fibers that attach there are not being stressed as much. Another thing might have to do with how fully the chest is contracted given your form of choice of exercise. The more fully you can contract the chest the more you should feel it in the “inner” chest I think. So you should feel your inner chest more doing pec-deck or cross-overs because they allow for a full contraction and resistance at this position than you would if doing bench press or DB flies which do not.

55

When the doctor tested for the fat he didn’t do 3,4,5,6 or 7 pinches…he did 2: abs and triceps. As for his calculations I’m unsure of that.

Earlier in the thread, some talk of doing a chest workout of only incline and the day following noticing only an upper chest soreness, not all around. Here is my question…if the pec major is only 1 muscle…how can there be soreness on certain areas of this 1 muscle if it all contracts together?? Another question…if i focused more on decline bench and left out flat bench for a while…would my flat bench numbers go down?

When CT said earlier that there is no such thing as inner chest/outer chest, etc. how come some guys’ chests that I see at the gym stick out on the outside, then fade into the center?? And before I go contradicting bodybuilders at the gym, why would so many bodybuilders tell me to do cable flys and squeeze when I come through because it will get my inner chest? Same goes for doing inside bench press? Are these guys just full of shit?

56

[quote]Kael231 wrote:
JNeves wrote:
if you want your chest to extend past your gut you need a smaller gut or a bigger chest… sounds like you got a smaller gut (p.s. your not 4% body fat) so build a bigger chest

Yes I do have a small gut…and p.s. I went to the doctor 1 week ago to get my B.F. tested and yes…I am 4.1% you dumb fuck.

Thanks for all the constructive help…yeah I have heard that doing dips while bending forward helps get the lower chest so I will give that a try as well. My current workout for chest looks like this…

decline bench press 6x8
Flat bench press 3x6
Incline bench press 3x6
Incline dumbbell flys 3x8
cable cross-overs 3x8[/quote]

I think your the dumbest person i have met. You should not be giving advice to anyone with your so called 4.1 bf and an amazing chest. your chest looks like someone deflated it. your a skinny little kid who needs to shut up and start putting up some weight!

57

[quote]dilly19 wrote:
I think your the dumbest person i have met. You should not be giving advice to anyone with your so called 4.1 bf and an amazing chest. your chest looks like someone deflated it. your a skinny little kid who needs to shut up and start putting up some weight!
[/quote]

Lol, that’s funny, a bit rough but fair enuff, that “dumbfuck” comment really did him in. But you really should check your grammar, “I think YOU ARE (or YOU’RE) the dumbest person…” not “I think YOUR the dumbest person…”

Just thought I’d point out the irony =]

58

[quote]dilly19 wrote:
Kael231 wrote:
JNeves wrote:
if you want your chest to extend past your gut you need a smaller gut or a bigger chest… sounds like you got a smaller gut (p.s. your not 4% body fat) so build a bigger chest

Yes I do have a small gut…and p.s. I went to the doctor 1 week ago to get my B.F. tested and yes…I am 4.1% you dumb fuck.

Thanks for all the constructive help…yeah I have heard that doing dips while bending forward helps get the lower chest so I will give that a try as well. My current workout for chest looks like this…

decline bench press 6x8
Flat bench press 3x6
Incline bench press 3x6
Incline dumbbell flys 3x8
cable cross-overs 3x8

I think your the dumbest person i have met. You should not be giving advice to anyone with your so called 4.1 bf and an amazing chest. your chest looks like someone deflated it. your a skinny little kid who needs to shut up and start putting up some weight!
[/quote]

Grow up.

59

[quote]dilly19 wrote:
Kael231 wrote:
JNeves wrote:
if you want your chest to extend past your gut you need a smaller gut or a bigger chest… sounds like you got a smaller gut (p.s. your not 4% body fat) so build a bigger chest

Yes I do have a small gut…and p.s. I went to the doctor 1 week ago to get my B.F. tested and yes…I am 4.1% you dumb fuck.

Thanks for all the constructive help…yeah I have heard that doing dips while bending forward helps get the lower chest so I will give that a try as well. My current workout for chest looks like this…

decline bench press 6x8
Flat bench press 3x6
Incline bench press 3x6
Incline dumbbell flys 3x8
cable cross-overs 3x8

I think your the dumbest person i have met. You should not be giving advice to anyone with your so called 4.1 bf and an amazing chest. your chest looks like someone deflated it. your a skinny little kid who needs to shut up and start putting up some weight!
[/quote]

Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t believe anywhere in this thread that I gave anyone ANY advice, I simply asked for help. And as for your lovely comment…did that make your day?

60

[quote]Kael231 wrote:
When the doctor tested for the fat he didn’t do 3,4,5,6 or 7 pinches…he did 2: abs and triceps. As for his calculations I’m unsure of that.[/quote]

That’s not going to be even close to accurate.

One of the causes of delayed onset muscle soreness is microtrauma to the muscle fibers during eccentric stretching. Depending on where a muscle inserts, certain parts of it may have more trauma than other parts. This does not mean that these parts will grow significantly more, it just means they were stretched more. Muscle fibers throughout the entire muscle will be recruited during the exercise and hence placed under an adaptive stress. In other words, the part that feels sore is not the only part of the muscle that is working.

Don’t know…try it and let us know.

Genetics

Yes, they are just as mis-informed as anyone else. Just because they have impressive physiques does not mean that they know much about anatomy and physiology. What it does mean is that they probably have good genetic potential to begin with AND usually a good work ethic when it comes to training. I’ve seen a lot of “dumb” guys make a lot of progress doing incredibly stupid routines because they worked hard. Training hard and smart would be the ideal though IMO.

In faith,
WS