Shaming People

[orion]

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Great article, orion.

Again, this is EXACTLY what I have been driving at this entire thread, only to have the argument get knocked off the tracks with every reply of yet another completely wrongheaded idea of what is actually implied by, and guaranteed by, shame.

From the article, which I highly recommend reading all of:

It is now orthodox to regard social stigma as a form of oppression, to be discarded on our collective quest for inner freedom. But the political philosophers and novelists of former times would have been horrified by such a view. In almost all matters that touched upon the core requirements of social order, they believed that the genial pressure of manners, morals, and customs?enforced by the various forms of disapproval, stigma, shame, and reproach?was a more powerful guarantor of civilized and lawful behavior than the laws themselves. Inner sanctions, they argued, more dependably maintain society than such external ones as policemen and courts.

Read it all. [/quote]

The “Days of Yore” fallacy.

Back in my day, you could arbitrarily beat someone you owned to death just for shits and giggles, then put on a nice tuxedo and go down to the auction to buy another one. Maybe rape one of the females and say she used voodoo to seduce me!

Funny how different parts of the same time can be hearkened back to. Back when people were real right and proper, huh?

[/quote]

Strawman, those days never existed.

[Cortes]

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Great article, orion.

Again, this is EXACTLY what I have been driving at this entire thread, only to have the argument get knocked off the tracks with every reply of yet another completely wrongheaded idea of what is actually implied by, and guaranteed by, shame.

From the article, which I highly recommend reading all of:

It is now orthodox to regard social stigma as a form of oppression, to be discarded on our collective quest for inner freedom. But the political philosophers and novelists of former times would have been horrified by such a view. In almost all matters that touched upon the core requirements of social order, they believed that the genial pressure of manners, morals, and customs?enforced by the various forms of disapproval, stigma, shame, and reproach?was a more powerful guarantor of civilized and lawful behavior than the laws themselves. Inner sanctions, they argued, more dependably maintain society than such external ones as policemen and courts.

Read it all. [/quote]

The “Days of Yore” fallacy.

Back in my day, you could arbitrarily beat someone you owned to death just for shits and giggles, then put on a nice tuxedo and go down to the auction to buy another one. Maybe rape one of the females and say she used voodoo to seduce me!

Funny how different parts of the same time can be hearkened back to. Back when people were real right and proper, huh?

[/quote]

Your “Days of Yore” fallacy commits the “Red Herring” fallacy that pretends as if the small excerpt I posted is the whole of the argument. Trust me, the point of the article isn’t “That’s how my daddy did it so God-damnit this is how I’ma gonna do it.” That’s why I suggested actually clicking the link and reading the entire thing. Because context is important.

[Cortes]

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Great article, orion.

Again, this is EXACTLY what I have been driving at this entire thread, only to have the argument get knocked off the tracks with every reply of yet another completely wrongheaded idea of what is actually implied by, and guaranteed by, shame.

From the article, which I highly recommend reading all of:

It is now orthodox to regard social stigma as a form of oppression, to be discarded on our collective quest for inner freedom. But the political philosophers and novelists of former times would have been horrified by such a view. In almost all matters that touched upon the core requirements of social order, they believed that the genial pressure of manners, morals, and customs?enforced by the various forms of disapproval, stigma, shame, and reproach?was a more powerful guarantor of civilized and lawful behavior than the laws themselves. Inner sanctions, they argued, more dependably maintain society than such external ones as policemen and courts.

Read it all. [/quote]

The “Days of Yore” fallacy.

Back in my day, you could arbitrarily beat someone you owned to death just for shits and giggles, then put on a nice tuxedo and go down to the auction to buy another one. Maybe rape one of the females and say she used voodoo to seduce me!

Funny how different parts of the same time can be hearkened back to. Back when people were real right and proper, huh?

[/quote]

Strawman, those days never existed.

[/quote]

He’s talking about human chattel. It is still irrelevant to the points made in the article, which have yet to be challenged. Hint, they are the same points that have been made about 20 times so far in this very thread, but are consistently countered by one of the various logical fallacies, even so cleverly as in the case of the logical fallacy couched in the the accusation of a logical fallacy. Tres post-moderne.

[orion]

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Great article, orion.

Again, this is EXACTLY what I have been driving at this entire thread, only to have the argument get knocked off the tracks with every reply of yet another completely wrongheaded idea of what is actually implied by, and guaranteed by, shame.

From the article, which I highly recommend reading all of:

It is now orthodox to regard social stigma as a form of oppression, to be discarded on our collective quest for inner freedom. But the political philosophers and novelists of former times would have been horrified by such a view. In almost all matters that touched upon the core requirements of social order, they believed that the genial pressure of manners, morals, and customs?enforced by the various forms of disapproval, stigma, shame, and reproach?was a more powerful guarantor of civilized and lawful behavior than the laws themselves. Inner sanctions, they argued, more dependably maintain society than such external ones as policemen and courts.

Read it all. [/quote]

The “Days of Yore” fallacy.

Back in my day, you could arbitrarily beat someone you owned to death just for shits and giggles, then put on a nice tuxedo and go down to the auction to buy another one. Maybe rape one of the females and say she used voodoo to seduce me!

Funny how different parts of the same time can be hearkened back to. Back when people were real right and proper, huh?

[/quote]

Your “Days of Yore” fallacy commits the “Red Herring” fallacy that pretends as if the small excerpt I posted is the whole of the argument. Trust me, the point of the article isn’t “That’s how my daddy did it so God-damnit this is how I’ma gonna do it.” That’s why I suggested actually clicking the link and reading the entire thing. Because context is important. [/quote]

Reading a link before commenting.,

Thats a novel concept Sir, a novel concept…

[SkyzykS]

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Great article, orion.

Again, this is EXACTLY what I have been driving at this entire thread, only to have the argument get knocked off the tracks with every reply of yet another completely wrongheaded idea of what is actually implied by, and guaranteed by, shame.

From the article, which I highly recommend reading all of:

It is now orthodox to regard social stigma as a form of oppression, to be discarded on our collective quest for inner freedom. But the political philosophers and novelists of former times would have been horrified by such a view. In almost all matters that touched upon the core requirements of social order, they believed that the genial pressure of manners, morals, and customs?enforced by the various forms of disapproval, stigma, shame, and reproach?was a more powerful guarantor of civilized and lawful behavior than the laws themselves. Inner sanctions, they argued, more dependably maintain society than such external ones as policemen and courts.

Read it all. [/quote]

The “Days of Yore” fallacy.

Back in my day, you could arbitrarily beat someone you owned to death just for shits and giggles, then put on a nice tuxedo and go down to the auction to buy another one. Maybe rape one of the females and say she used voodoo to seduce me!

Funny how different parts of the same time can be hearkened back to. Back when people were real right and proper, huh?

[/quote]

Your “Days of Yore” fallacy commits the “Red Herring” fallacy that pretends as if the small excerpt I posted is the whole of the argument. Trust me, the point of the article isn’t “That’s how my daddy did it so God-damnit this is how I’ma gonna do it.” That’s why I suggested actually clicking the link and reading the entire thing. Because context is important. [/quote]

I read the whole thing several hours ago. Not really a red herring though since the whole article is based on bringing something back from a time which the author references and takes quotes from in support of each statement of each paragraph.

[SkyzykS]

It is also kind of ironic that the author addresses pedophilia, which goes largely unreported because of the victims overwhelming feelings of shame.

Is it bring back shame, or return to a time when victims felt badly enough to keep their mouths shut?

[DBCooper]

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
It is also kind of ironic that the author addresses pedophilia, which goes largely unreported because of the victims overwhelming feelings of shame.

Is it bring back shame, or return to a time when victims felt badly enough to keep their mouths shut?
[/quote]

What’s even more telling of people’s ignorance of the issue is that all societal ills should apparently be treated the same. Pedophilia and addiction are so fucking different that to say each deserves to be treated essentially the same (shaming) is beyond inappropriate. Each problem is unique and each individual exhibiting such problem is different. On top of that, when dealing with addiction or mental issues (which obesity largely is), each form of addiction or mental issue is different from person to person and manifests itself in myriad ways. To just say that blanket shaming will work is like painting a tiny little figurine with a roller.

[batman730]

Why do people insist on interpreting “some ‘tradional’ values such as common courtesy, work ethic, marital fidelity etc. may still have value in today’s society and should not necessarily be abandoned wholesale in the name of ‘progress’” as “we should resist all change and regress to how things were 200 years ago because everything was better back then?”

Are table manners really the first stronghold of slavery and shaming the victims of rape, incest and spousal abuse into silence? I somehow doubt it.

Why must it be one way or the other, black and white? The old ways and the new can coexist, and I believe we would all be the better for it.

[SkyzykS]

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Why do people insist on interpreting “some ‘tradional’ values such as common courtesy, work ethic, marital fidelity etc. may still have value in today’s society and should not necessarily be abandoned wholesale in the name of ‘progress’” as “we should resist all change and regress to how things were 200 years ago because everything was better back then?”

Are table manners really the first stronghold of slavery and shaming the victims of rape, incest and spousal abuse into silence? I somehow doubt it.

Why must it be one way or the other, black and white? The old ways and the new can coexist, and I believe we would all be the better for it.[/quote]

It doesn’t have to be one way or the other, and in fact and action, I demonstrate the values you laid out in the first paragraph very well. But not out of shame for a previous act or out of an external force being imposed to coerce conformity to a social norm- but simply out of a sense of human decency.

I also agree and very strongly support your proposal of a sense of esteem based in accomplishment. What I disagree with is that shame is a necessary function of society. Shame is a destructive emotion which should not be used as a tool to coerce conformity or a desired behavior.

It may work sometimes but when it backfires, the consequences can be enormous. Where as with a basic functioning sense of decency, a person is motivated to do good by the reward of feeling good for having done something good.

As basic intrinsic drives go, it creates a win win situation from the inside out, instead of a corrosive force imposed from the outside in.

I also get Cortes’s side of it, and understand that he is fully invested in a culture where shame is considered a normal and necessary function. I’m just presenting a different take on it and doing the usual interwebs jousting.

[SkyzykS]

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
It is also kind of ironic that the author addresses pedophilia, which goes largely unreported because of the victims overwhelming feelings of shame.

Is it bring back shame, or return to a time when victims felt badly enough to keep their mouths shut?
[/quote]

What’s even more telling of people’s ignorance of the issue is that all societal ills should apparently be treated the same. Pedophilia and addiction are so fucking different that to say each deserves to be treated essentially the same (shaming) is beyond inappropriate. Each problem is unique and each individual exhibiting such problem is different. On top of that, when dealing with addiction or mental issues (which obesity largely is), each form of addiction or mental issue is different from person to person and manifests itself in myriad ways. To just say that blanket shaming will work is like painting a tiny little figurine with a roller.[/quote]

Sometimes when all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.

This is one of those times.

[orion]

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
It is also kind of ironic that the author addresses pedophilia, which goes largely unreported because of the victims overwhelming feelings of shame.

Is it bring back shame, or return to a time when victims felt badly enough to keep their mouths shut?
[/quote]

What’s even more telling of people’s ignorance of the issue is that all societal ills should apparently be treated the same. Pedophilia and addiction are so fucking different that to say each deserves to be treated essentially the same (shaming) is beyond inappropriate. Each problem is unique and each individual exhibiting such problem is different. On top of that, when dealing with addiction or mental issues (which obesity largely is), each form of addiction or mental issue is different from person to person and manifests itself in myriad ways. To just say that blanket shaming will work is like painting a tiny little figurine with a roller.[/quote]

Sometimes when all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.

This is one of those times.
[/quote]

No, this is one of those times all you really got is a hammer and you have to make do, while some people tell you that you can make things stick with guilt and empty promises.

[SkyzykS]

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
It is also kind of ironic that the author addresses pedophilia, which goes largely unreported because of the victims overwhelming feelings of shame.

Is it bring back shame, or return to a time when victims felt badly enough to keep their mouths shut?
[/quote]

What’s even more telling of people’s ignorance of the issue is that all societal ills should apparently be treated the same. Pedophilia and addiction are so fucking different that to say each deserves to be treated essentially the same (shaming) is beyond inappropriate. Each problem is unique and each individual exhibiting such problem is different. On top of that, when dealing with addiction or mental issues (which obesity largely is), each form of addiction or mental issue is different from person to person and manifests itself in myriad ways. To just say that blanket shaming will work is like painting a tiny little figurine with a roller.[/quote]

Sometimes when all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.

This is one of those times.
[/quote]

No, this is one of those times all you really got is a hammer and you have to make do, while some people tell you that you can make things stick with guilt and empty promises.
[/quote]

I don’t get it. Which circumstance do you believe to be solvable with the hammer, and who is telling who that things will stick with guilt and empty promises?

[orion]

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
It is also kind of ironic that the author addresses pedophilia, which goes largely unreported because of the victims overwhelming feelings of shame.

Is it bring back shame, or return to a time when victims felt badly enough to keep their mouths shut?
[/quote]

What’s even more telling of people’s ignorance of the issue is that all societal ills should apparently be treated the same. Pedophilia and addiction are so fucking different that to say each deserves to be treated essentially the same (shaming) is beyond inappropriate. Each problem is unique and each individual exhibiting such problem is different. On top of that, when dealing with addiction or mental issues (which obesity largely is), each form of addiction or mental issue is different from person to person and manifests itself in myriad ways. To just say that blanket shaming will work is like painting a tiny little figurine with a roller.[/quote]

Sometimes when all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.

This is one of those times.
[/quote]

No, this is one of those times all you really got is a hammer and you have to make do, while some people tell you that you can make things stick with guilt and empty promises.
[/quote]

I don’t get it. Which circumstance do you believe to be solvable with the hammer, and who is telling who that things will stick with guilt and empty promises?
[/quote]

You want to make do with lovey dovey understanding and building people up and whatnot.

While in theory that might be swell, in reality we do not have the resources.

All we have is the hammer of shame, it is the best tool that we have, maybe the only one.

Lets use it, even if it is an imperfect device.

[DBCooper]

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
It is also kind of ironic that the author addresses pedophilia, which goes largely unreported because of the victims overwhelming feelings of shame.

Is it bring back shame, or return to a time when victims felt badly enough to keep their mouths shut?
[/quote]

What’s even more telling of people’s ignorance of the issue is that all societal ills should apparently be treated the same. Pedophilia and addiction are so fucking different that to say each deserves to be treated essentially the same (shaming) is beyond inappropriate. Each problem is unique and each individual exhibiting such problem is different. On top of that, when dealing with addiction or mental issues (which obesity largely is), each form of addiction or mental issue is different from person to person and manifests itself in myriad ways. To just say that blanket shaming will work is like painting a tiny little figurine with a roller.[/quote]

Sometimes when all you have is a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.

This is one of those times.
[/quote]

No, this is one of those times all you really got is a hammer and you have to make do, while some people tell you that you can make things stick with guilt and empty promises.
[/quote]

I don’t get it. Which circumstance do you believe to be solvable with the hammer, and who is telling who that things will stick with guilt and empty promises?
[/quote]

You want to make do with lovey dovey understanding and building people up and whatnot.

While in theory that might be swell, in reality we do not have the resources.

All we have is the hammer of shame, it is the best tool that we have, maybe the only one.

Lets use it, even if it is an imperfect device.
[/quote]

That’s ridiculous. All you’ve said here is that we should resort to the simplest measure that, in reality, can cause many other problems down the road, because it’s cheap and easy. Yeah, let’s use the imperfect device because it costs less, not because it’s the better of two admittedly imperfect options.

To continue with the hammer analogy, would you perform all the remodeling or repairs on your house with just a hammer? Or would you do whatever it took to get the money to fix each problem the correct way?

[DBCooper]

My point, Orion, is that there is a tool for everything, and unless you use the proper tool, you are going to make things worse.

Shaming may work for some things, but it simply does not work for most of the problems mentioned in this thread so far, especially obesity or any sort of addiction problem. In many cases, obesity and addiction are tied together. The fact is that when we discuss those two things, we are talking about something that people KNOW is bad for them, but they engage in that behavior anyways. That sort of behavior in most cases is a symptom of a much, much larger problem. From my own VERY extensive experience in this area, I can tell you right now with the utmost certainty and accuracy that shaming people for engaging in the sort of behavior I am talking about is piling on and makes the problem worse. They’re already down, they know it, and now you propose kicking them while they’re down there, essentially because you don’t know any other avenue for addressing it.

For problems such as teenage pregnancy or single mothers with multiple children from multiple fathers, shaming doesn’t really address the ACTUAL problem that the pregnancy thing develops from. In most cases, those sorts of issues are directly tied to a lack of education, poverty, or both. What does shaming do to address that? Nothing at all.

I don’t disagree that societal disapproval has its place and that many of the things we have discussed here have become more acceptable or less taboo than in the past. But to say that outright shaming people or engaging in any other sort of behavior without ALS O presenting a viable solution is completely unproductive. Shaming people in the hopes that they fit themselves into some completely arbitrary conception of the model citizen in a given society is like taking a wrecking ball to something that needs to be taken apart in a very specific, step-by-step manner without any plans for how to deal with the mess that the wrecking ball causes.

[Cuban32]

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
My point, Orion, is that there is a tool for everything, and unless you use the proper tool, you are going to make things worse.

Shaming may work for some things, but it simply does not work for most of the problems mentioned in this thread so far, especially obesity or any sort of addiction problem. In many cases, obesity and addiction are tied together. The fact is that when we discuss those two things, we are talking about something that people KNOW is bad for them, but they engage in that behavior anyways. That sort of behavior in most cases is a symptom of a much, much larger problem. From my own VERY extensive experience in this area, I can tell you right now with the utmost certainty and accuracy that shaming people for engaging in the sort of behavior I am talking about is piling on and makes the problem worse. They’re already down, they know it, and now you propose kicking them while they’re down there, essentially because you don’t know any other avenue for addressing it.

For problems such as teenage pregnancy or single mothers with multiple children from multiple fathers, shaming doesn’t really address the ACTUAL problem that the pregnancy thing develops from. In most cases, those sorts of issues are directly tied to a lack of education, poverty, or both. What does shaming do to address that? Nothing at all.

I don’t disagree that societal disapproval has its place and that many of the things we have discussed here have become more acceptable or less taboo than in the past. But to say that outright shaming people or engaging in any other sort of behavior without ALS O presenting a viable solution is completely unproductive. Shaming people in the hopes that they fit themselves into some completely arbitrary conception of the model citizen in a given society is like taking a wrecking ball to something that needs to be taken apart in a very specific, step-by-step manner without any plans for how to deal with the mess that the wrecking ball causes.[/quote]

Agreed.

[orion]

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Cuban32 wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
My point, Orion, is that there is a tool for everything, and unless you use the proper tool, you are going to make things worse.

Shaming may work for some things, but it simply does not work for most of the problems mentioned in this thread so far, especially obesity or any sort of addiction problem. In many cases, obesity and addiction are tied together. The fact is that when we discuss those two things, we are talking about something that people KNOW is bad for them, but they engage in that behavior anyways. That sort of behavior in most cases is a symptom of a much, much larger problem. From my own VERY extensive experience in this area, I can tell you right now with the utmost certainty and accuracy that shaming people for engaging in the sort of behavior I am talking about is piling on and makes the problem worse. They’re already down, they know it, and now you propose kicking them while they’re down there, essentially because you don’t know any other avenue for addressing it.

For problems such as teenage pregnancy or single mothers with multiple children from multiple fathers, shaming doesn’t really address the ACTUAL problem that the pregnancy thing develops from. In most cases, those sorts of issues are directly tied to a lack of education, poverty, or both. What does shaming do to address that? Nothing at all.

I don’t disagree that societal disapproval has its place and that many of the things we have discussed here have become more acceptable or less taboo than in the past. But to say that outright shaming people or engaging in any other sort of behavior without ALS O presenting a viable solution is completely unproductive. Shaming people in the hopes that they fit themselves into some completely arbitrary conception of the model citizen in a given society is like taking a wrecking ball to something that needs to be taken apart in a very specific, step-by-step manner without any plans for how to deal with the mess that the wrecking ball causes.[/quote]

Agreed.[/quote]
Yep.[/quote]

Nope.

Especially with things like single mothers and mothers have children out of wedlock shame would do a lot of good.

What is intimately tied to this is the welfare state.

The whole idea that we effectively subsidize behavior that could wreak havoc in a society comes from a mindset where people are not responsible for their actions, where they are not held accountable, where they are all just poor victims of their cirecumstances.

“Shaming” comes from a different mindset:

Hell yes you are responsible for your own actions, he no, I will not foot the bill for your idiocy and you know, your inability do not hold your legs together for every bad boy biker and being too stupid for effective birth control measures says actually a lot about you and none of it is good.

The right reaction to a woman that has not one, but two, three, four kids from different guys is not “poor victim”, its "bitch, are you retarded!? ".

My inquiries into “judging” have revealed at least one thing for certain, people, especially women, dont like that.

At all…

So if I am not “judge”, she is not to make me pay for her Hells Angels bastard spawn.

[Cortes]

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

The right reaction to a woman that has not one, but two, three, four kids from different guys is not “poor victim”, its "bitch, are you retarded!? ".

[/quote]

No.

It’s “Well, now what are you going to do? 'Cause you’re not getting any money from me.”

Self-loathing born of shame will only lead to more self-destructive behavior.

You fucking idiot.

[/quote]

But you must agree, Chushin, that societal disapproval of this sort of behavior is not unwarranted. And the general acceptance of it is a pretty big reason it’s becoming continually worse.

Maybe the disconnect is the level at which so-called “shaming” occurs. Sure, it may not be the kindest or most virtuous behavior to tell a sexually active single mother of four half-siblings that she and her selfish, carnal stupidity are a part of some of the biggest problems in our society today (and before anyone gets me wrong, I hold those four absent fathers equally accountable), but to act like we should refrain, on the societal level, from expressing extreme disapproval at behaviors that are ripping our modern society apart at the seams seems pretty shortsighted, in my opinion.