Shaming People

Off Topic
241

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:
what are people’s thoughts on:

  1. the reason behind the massive increase in obesity in many Western countries over the last 25 years

and

  1. what are the solutions to solving this crisis

personally i don’t really agree with shaming for the reasons given in this thread but what action can be taken? No one seems a fan of Gov intervention (banning soft drinks or whatever) so if you are a fan of some kind of “education” what form can this take so as to be actually effective and result in large scale results?
[/quote]

I think we (here on this forum) have a pretty good idea of the causes, largely diet but exercise too. I think the key is to get that understanding out there as well as studying to gain a better understanding of the behavioral factors and the mass commercialization of food and it’s social impact or people appetites and eating habits. ie) watch TV for a few hours and see how many times you’re staring at fucking delicious looking food. Food channel, people share food porn on facebook (I do this too btw) but I think these things all affect one’s will to stick to a healthy diet.

Exercise, well that’s just a matter or prioritization mostly, but there are other factors, for example perhaps the excessive warnings about check with your doctor before you do a pushup nonsense that’s a result of the over litigiousness we enjoy right now is telling people that if they can feel their heart beat they are over doing it and will die.

Those are just off the top of my head but I think there are a multitude of factors working against the average kid growing up right now with regards to obesity Actually forget obesity, how about health? Because people get the bad habits and the compromised metabolism and hormone profile before they are obese. Obesity is the result of the broken threshold of years of unhealthy living.

My start would be a food advertising filter on my TV :stuck_out_tongue:
[/quote]

what do you think of something like introducing a basic fitness test for school age kids every year?

i understand Putin wants to implement something along these lines in Russia

so maybe something such as every kid from age 6-7 onwards has to meet X standards in flexibilty/endurance/strength

i see no reason to pussy foot around and aay wait until the kids are 12 as many are already very obese by then

standards obviously relatively low and tested every 3 months and increase in difficulty each year until age 18 (and include it in college too)

i think this alone could really help[/quote]

I think that’s a great start. We had that in school when I was in grade school and it was a big mistake to take it out–I think, further thoughts below. You can’t find much about it on google either which is odd. But here’s a link talking about it: Canada Fitness

Anyways, being someone who was athletic I loved it. My score and achievements meant a lot to me and we trained for it every year. So maybe I’m not the best judge of it’s effectiveness because I would have been in track and field anyway.

Other people HATED it. I think there are some mentions of it as torture in some Tragically Hip songs lol. So it’s possible it had the effect of making exercise miserable for some? I don’t know, exercise is hard and people need to learn that and be able to endure it without having a feeling of their chest burning like hell and being fit is the only way to be there.

No simple answer but I think fitness in school, or the lack of, I should say, is high on the list of what is broken. You could say yeah but parents should be responsible blah blah, but they aren’t and they won’t be. To be honest, putting the fitness programs in schools is social engineering and apparently only us liberals are on board for that …

242

[quote]yolo84 wrote:
what are people’s thoughts on:

  1. the reason behind the massive increase in obesity in many Western countries over the last 25 years

and

  1. what are the solutions to solving this crisis

personally i don’t really agree with shaming for the reasons given in this thread but what action can be taken? No one seems a fan of Gov intervention (banning soft drinks or whatever) so if you are a fan of some kind of “education” what form can this take so as to be actually effective and result in large scale results?
[/quote]

I think it’s a combination of factors. More people lead sedentary lives, for starters. The Internet, along with the PC in general, has allowed people to earn a living without really having to move a whole lot. There are simply more desk jobs now than ever before. Children also spend much more time in front of a computer or a video game console than ever before. Shit, I remember when I was a kid if you wanted to play with your buddies on the block, you went down to their house, knocked on the door and asked if Johnny could come out and play. Playing meant being outside and doing something active, so you didn’t even use the telephone to call them since you were heading out regardless. You just went over and asked. Now, kids not only don’t physically get up to do that (thanks to things like kids having cell phones and Facebook), but they also “play” and interact with each other much more with a computer instead of face-to-face.

The food that’s out there is a factor, too. There are more and more fast food places everywhere and the fact is that many people have become used to the instant gratification that the Internet has provided us. Instead of going to the library, you just Google it. Instead of going down to the store when you were a kid and stealing some porn mag, you just Google it. I could go on and on. So, when kids get hungry, do they make the food themselves? No, they just run down to the local fast food place or grab some sort of shitty snack rather than take the time to prepare something healthy. Parents are guilty of the same thing.

Organized team sports seem to be waning a little bit as well, in favor of individual, unorganized sports like skateboarding or that kind of shit. When you play a team sport, invariably, the coach makes you do some running to stay in shape. If your sport is skateboarding or something like that, you don’t run anywhere and you don’t do any conditioning to stay in shape for the sport since you aren’t really competing against anyone.

Also, there seems to be a growing stigma related to riding a bike. I live in Chico, which is as pure a college town as there is in this country. My parents went to school at Chico State when literally all the students rode their bikes to class since 99% of the student population lived within a mile of the campus. The same is true today, but I see more and more students each year driving to school, even from just a few blocks away. Shit, they just recently built a new parking garage just south of campus for the students even though it takes less than 10 minutes to ride a bike to class from literally any student-populated areas. Probably half of the students here live within a 5 minute bike ride.

I also think there are more and more people who go to the gym but have no fucking clue whatsoever about how to lose weight. I see fat fuckers in the gym all the time just going through the motions, and then they disappear after a month or so because they didn’t make any progress. The fact is that if you are prone to being a fucking slob, you are simply going to have to work harder to lose weight and keep it off. And there seems to be more and more dumbfuck trainers who got their certs from a CrackerJack box who don’t dispense relevant info to their fat fuck clients or have the balls to shoot straight to them and tell them in no uncertain words that they completely missed the genetic lottery and if they want to be at a healthy weight, it is going to take some serious dedication.

243

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]yolo84 wrote:
what are people’s thoughts on:

  1. the reason behind the massive increase in obesity in many Western countries over the last 25 years

and

  1. what are the solutions to solving this crisis

personally i don’t really agree with shaming for the reasons given in this thread but what action can be taken? No one seems a fan of Gov intervention (banning soft drinks or whatever) so if you are a fan of some kind of “education” what form can this take so as to be actually effective and result in large scale results?
[/quote]

I think we (here on this forum) have a pretty good idea of the causes, largely diet but exercise too. I think the key is to get that understanding out there as well as studying to gain a better understanding of the behavioral factors and the mass commercialization of food and it’s social impact or people appetites and eating habits. ie) watch TV for a few hours and see how many times you’re staring at fucking delicious looking food. Food channel, people share food porn on facebook (I do this too btw) but I think these things all affect one’s will to stick to a healthy diet.

Exercise, well that’s just a matter or prioritization mostly, but there are other factors, for example perhaps the excessive warnings about check with your doctor before you do a pushup nonsense that’s a result of the over litigiousness we enjoy right now is telling people that if they can feel their heart beat they are over doing it and will die.

Those are just off the top of my head but I think there are a multitude of factors working against the average kid growing up right now with regards to obesity Actually forget obesity, how about health? Because people get the bad habits and the compromised metabolism and hormone profile before they are obese. Obesity is the result of the broken threshold of years of unhealthy living.

My start would be a food advertising filter on my TV :stuck_out_tongue:
[/quote]

what do you think of something like introducing a basic fitness test for school age kids every year?

i understand Putin wants to implement something along these lines in Russia

so maybe something such as every kid from age 6-7 onwards has to meet X standards in flexibilty/endurance/strength

i see no reason to pussy foot around and aay wait until the kids are 12 as many are already very obese by then

standards obviously relatively low and tested every 3 months and increase in difficulty each year until age 18 (and include it in college too)

i think this alone could really help[/quote]

I remember when we had to do that shit in grade school and had to run the mile in under 7 minutes to pass P.E. in high school. It wasn’t even hard either. Do some pushups, run a mile without going into cardiac arrest, perform something like just 1 or 2 pull-ups and touch your toes with straight legs.

Now, half the kids can’t even see their own dick, let alone touch their toes.

244

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Living in Japan has given me a VASTLY enhanced perspective on the topic. The culture of shame is alive and well here, and while I must make clear that there are aspects of it that I absolutely despise, and I think that there will never be a way to apply it that does not involve certain instances or degrees of “collateral damage,” a little time spent here will go a long way toward convincing just about anyone that collectively administered shame can be one of the most powerful and stabilizing forces in existence for enforcing mutually agreed upon standards of behavior.
[/quote]

I’ll just stand up and say that living in Japan is given me a VASTLY enhanced perspective on the topic as well. I agree the culture of shame is alive and well, but I take the exact opposite view as you do Cortes.

While there may be (may be) times when “ijime” has positive results for society at large, overall it is a horrible thing for (Japanese) society. I just asked my wife what she thinks and she said it is “horrible, horrible.” THis is a debate going on in the country now. I simply think you are on the wrong side of it.

My wife told me that if we ever go back to Japan she never wants to send our kids to middle school in Japan. This is a personal choice that we will make…maybe things will change… but one large reason for this decision is the “shaming”/ijime culture.

as always, this is just my 2 cents.[/quote]

First, “shame” is NOT solely defined by ijime. For the 50th time, I am using a very broad definition of the idea.

With that in mind, riddle me this. How would you, if you could, go about removing the Japanese tendency to punish non-conformity without basically scooping out the very essence of the culture with a melon baller?

Because most of what Japan is, good or bad, is either because of or tied up in the concept of conformity to the group. [/quote]

Sorry 'bout the 50 times thing, didn’t read the whole 10 pages, got to that point and figured I’d point out that your view is not the “sole” view of Japan… we know, but others will take your perspective as truth.

I don’t really want to get into a discussion on how/why Japan should change or not on this thread… not the place. And I don’t know if I could do it without a personal emotional connection.

Shame =/= ijime, nor is shame always wrong. for example, the anti-groping shame posters (I saw it and I did nothing, how can I face my wife and daughters). That said, it seems to me that ijime/bullying is directly connected to shame, and something Japanese society is struggling with right now.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

246

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Living in Japan has given me a VASTLY enhanced perspective on the topic. The culture of shame is alive and well here, and while I must make clear that there are aspects of it that I absolutely despise, and I think that there will never be a way to apply it that does not involve certain instances or degrees of “collateral damage,” a little time spent here will go a long way toward convincing just about anyone that collectively administered shame can be one of the most powerful and stabilizing forces in existence for enforcing mutually agreed upon standards of behavior.
[/quote]

I’ll just stand up and say that living in Japan is given me a VASTLY enhanced perspective on the topic as well. I agree the culture of shame is alive and well, but I take the exact opposite view as you do Cortes.

While there may be (may be) times when “ijime” has positive results for society at large, overall it is a horrible thing for (Japanese) society. I just asked my wife what she thinks and she said it is “horrible, horrible.” THis is a debate going on in the country now. I simply think you are on the wrong side of it.

My wife told me that if we ever go back to Japan she never wants to send our kids to middle school in Japan. This is a personal choice that we will make…maybe things will change… but one large reason for this decision is the “shaming”/ijime culture.

as always, this is just my 2 cents.[/quote]

First, “shame” is NOT solely defined by ijime. For the 50th time, I am using a very broad definition of the idea.

With that in mind, riddle me this. How would you, if you could, go about removing the Japanese tendency to punish non-conformity without basically scooping out the very essence of the culture with a melon baller?

Because most of what Japan is, good or bad, is either because of or tied up in the concept of conformity to the group. [/quote]

Sorry 'bout the 50 times thing, didn’t read the whole 10 pages, got to that point and figured I’d point out that your view is not the “sole” view of Japan… we know, but others will take your perspective as truth.

I don’t really want to get into a discussion on how/why Japan should change or not on this thread… not the place. And I don’t know if I could do it without a personal emotional connection.

Shame =/= ijime, nor is shame always wrong. for example, the anti-groping shame posters (I saw it and I did nothing, how can I face my wife and daughters). That said, it seems to me that ijime/bullying is directly connected to shame, and something Japanese society is struggling with right now.

Anyway, my 2 cents. [/quote]

I think the whole sempai/kohai system has a lot to answer for too.

In many cases the bullying you see in schools (as an example) is either seniors picking on juniors, or the “in” kids picking on the outsiders.

Don’t know if it will ever go away and in some regards I am not sure if I would want it to. Shame is a factor in the strong role that social responsibility plays in this country, and that is a good thing. If shame make someone tow the line then fair play.

On the other hand, if shame pushes someone to make a half arsed apology then it is no help at all.

As an aside, I have a kid in elementary school now (she is half Japanese and noticeably so) and has never had any bother thankfully. I think her case may be the exception and not the norm however.

247

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Living in Japan has given me a VASTLY enhanced perspective on the topic. The culture of shame is alive and well here, and while I must make clear that there are aspects of it that I absolutely despise, and I think that there will never be a way to apply it that does not involve certain instances or degrees of “collateral damage,” a little time spent here will go a long way toward convincing just about anyone that collectively administered shame can be one of the most powerful and stabilizing forces in existence for enforcing mutually agreed upon standards of behavior.
[/quote]

I’ll just stand up and say that living in Japan is given me a VASTLY enhanced perspective on the topic as well. I agree the culture of shame is alive and well, but I take the exact opposite view as you do Cortes.

While there may be (may be) times when “ijime” has positive results for society at large, overall it is a horrible thing for (Japanese) society. I just asked my wife what she thinks and she said it is “horrible, horrible.” THis is a debate going on in the country now. I simply think you are on the wrong side of it.

My wife told me that if we ever go back to Japan she never wants to send our kids to middle school in Japan. This is a personal choice that we will make…maybe things will change… but one large reason for this decision is the “shaming”/ijime culture.

as always, this is just my 2 cents.[/quote]

First, “shame” is NOT solely defined by ijime. For the 50th time, I am using a very broad definition of the idea.

With that in mind, riddle me this. How would you, if you could, go about removing the Japanese tendency to punish non-conformity without basically scooping out the very essence of the culture with a melon baller?

Because most of what Japan is, good or bad, is either because of or tied up in the concept of conformity to the group. [/quote]

Sorry 'bout the 50 times thing, didn’t read the whole 10 pages, got to that point and figured I’d point out that your view is not the “sole” view of Japan… we know, but others will take your perspective as truth.

I don’t really want to get into a discussion on how/why Japan should change or not on this thread… not the place. And I don’t know if I could do it without a personal emotional connection.

Shame =/= ijime, nor is shame always wrong. for example, the anti-groping shame posters (I saw it and I did nothing, how can I face my wife and daughters). That said, it seems to me that ijime/bullying is directly connected to shame, and something Japanese society is struggling with right now.

Anyway, my 2 cents. [/quote]

I despise that aspect of Japanese culture with every fiber of my being. So you’ll see no disagreeent with me on that point. My boys will be going to private school no matter which country we are in.

248

[quote]spiderman739 wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Living in Japan has given me a VASTLY enhanced perspective on the topic. The culture of shame is alive and well here, and while I must make clear that there are aspects of it that I absolutely despise, and I think that there will never be a way to apply it that does not involve certain instances or degrees of “collateral damage,” a little time spent here will go a long way toward convincing just about anyone that collectively administered shame can be one of the most powerful and stabilizing forces in existence for enforcing mutually agreed upon standards of behavior.
[/quote]

I’ll just stand up and say that living in Japan is given me a VASTLY enhanced perspective on the topic as well. I agree the culture of shame is alive and well, but I take the exact opposite view as you do Cortes.

While there may be (may be) times when “ijime” has positive results for society at large, overall it is a horrible thing for (Japanese) society. I just asked my wife what she thinks and she said it is “horrible, horrible.” THis is a debate going on in the country now. I simply think you are on the wrong side of it.

My wife told me that if we ever go back to Japan she never wants to send our kids to middle school in Japan. This is a personal choice that we will make…maybe things will change… but one large reason for this decision is the “shaming”/ijime culture.

as always, this is just my 2 cents.[/quote]

First, “shame” is NOT solely defined by ijime. For the 50th time, I am using a very broad definition of the idea.

With that in mind, riddle me this. How would you, if you could, go about removing the Japanese tendency to punish non-conformity without basically scooping out the very essence of the culture with a melon baller?

Because most of what Japan is, good or bad, is either because of or tied up in the concept of conformity to the group. [/quote]

Sorry 'bout the 50 times thing, didn’t read the whole 10 pages, got to that point and figured I’d point out that your view is not the “sole” view of Japan… we know, but others will take your perspective as truth.

I don’t really want to get into a discussion on how/why Japan should change or not on this thread… not the place. And I don’t know if I could do it without a personal emotional connection.

Shame =/= ijime, nor is shame always wrong. for example, the anti-groping shame posters (I saw it and I did nothing, how can I face my wife and daughters). That said, it seems to me that ijime/bullying is directly connected to shame, and something Japanese society is struggling with right now.

Anyway, my 2 cents. [/quote]

I think the whole sempai/kohai system has a lot to answer for too.

In many cases the bullying you see in schools (as an example) is either seniors picking on juniors, or the “in” kids picking on the outsiders.

Don’t know if it will ever go away and in some regards I am not sure if I would want it to. Shame is a factor in the strong role that social responsibility plays in this country, and that is a good thing. If shame make someone tow the line then fair play.

On the other hand, if shame pushes someone to make a half arsed apology then it is no help at all.

As an aside, I have a kid in elementary school now (she is half Japanese and noticeably so) and has never had any bother thankfully. I think her case may be the exception and not the norm however.[/quote]

I also work at a number of the elementary schools around here as an ALT, and have for years now, and have developed a pretty close relationship with the students (who ALL know me) the teachers, and the school board. I am no typical ALT, either. I am almost always the person in control of every class I teach (they usually defer to me in all tasks, whereas typically the roles are exactly the opposite). I say this to let you know that I’m not just talking out of my ass, but actually have some real experience and authority in this area.

Bullying does happen at elementary schools, but I don’t think it occurs any more frequently or intensely it does in the US. It has been my observation, and this is based upon what I strongly believe to be sound reasoning and ample experience, the vast, vast majority of really harmful ijime/bullying begins in jr. high, and is bolstered and even encouraged by both the senpai/kohai system and the cult of the school club (the combination of which is the most powerful indoctrination tool this country has to offer).

I’ll stop as I’m driving this thread way off topic. Just wanted to let you know that things change, big time, from Chuu-ichi. Get her into a private school from then, if you can afford it.

249

[quote]Cortes wrote:

I also work at a number of the elementary schools around here as an ALT, and have for years now, and have developed a pretty close relationship with the students (who ALL know me) the teachers, and the school board. I am no typical ALT, either. I am almost always the person in control of every class I teach (they usually defer to me in all tasks, whereas typically the roles are exactly the opposite). I say this to let you know that I’m not just talking out of my ass, but actually have some real experience and authority in this area.

Bullying does happen at elementary schools, but I don’t think it occurs any more frequently or intensely it does in the US. It has been my observation, and this is based upon what I strongly believe to be sound reasoning and ample experience, the vast, vast majority of really harmful ijime/bullying begins in jr. high, and is bolstered and even encouraged by both the senpai/kohai system and the cult of the school club (the combination of which is the most powerful indoctrination tool this country has to offer).

I’ll stop as I’m driving this thread way off topic. Just wanted to let you know that things change, big time, from Chuu-ichi. Get her into a private school from then, if you can afford it.
[/quote]

Yep, off on a bit of a tangent indeed :wink: Cheers for the input though.

250

I’ve been out of the discussion for a while and I only skimmed the last 8 pages or so, so apologies if this is redundant. I accept all the problems that have been pointed out with shaming as a social institution. I watch a video of a group of Sikh fundamentalists “shaming” some poor old man for being a drunk. The were dragging him through the streets, tearing his clothes, slapping his, face pulling his hair and basically announcing to everyone in a busy public area what a piece of garbage this guy is. It went on and on and on. I was sick with rage watching these young strong guys bullying this helpless drunk elderly guy. Afterword, I felt like I needed a drink, I can only imagine how the old guy felt. This is obviously an extreme example, but I don’t see how any sensible, compassionate person could argue that this is an effective way to promote positive change. Of course, their culture is so different from our own that I can’t necessarily grasp the dynamics of what was going on, but it definitely did not sit right with me.

However, I’d like to say something about the concept shame in general. I believe that the I’m OK you’re OK, let’s not keep score because everybody’s a winner and nobody should be criticized because we’re all special and unique culture we have embraced in recent years has deprived us of many of the positive personal and cultural effects of shame. We have, in many ways, lost the ability to properly experience shame, disappointment, remorse and other “negative” emotions. I believe this is an extension of our cultural obsession with excising even the slightest potential for any type discomfort from our lives. We had mandated fitness testing when we were in school. As I recall, we had an assembly after the testing where we were publicly awarded a Gold, Silver, Bronze or “Participation” patch based on set performance standards. It was a no nonsense, find out where you stand, and if you did well feel proud kind of thing. The program was discontinued, and I would speculate that it was because the kids who did less well felt bad about it. If you were to try to reinstate something like that, the push back would be enormous. “What if little billy who plays video games and drinks soda all day gets a ‘Participation’, feels bad about himself and commits suicide?”.

IMO you can’t really have pride without shame. As a result people are less and less inclined to perform out of a sense of personal pride and will only do so in pursuit of some real or perceived external reward or punishment. If you cut out shame, the “thrill of victory and the agony of defeat” is reduced to the “mean spirited satisfaction of beating the other guy and the indifference of defeat because winning isn’t that big a deal and/or the game was stupid/fixed/uncool to begin with”. Of course, really we shouldn’t keep score in the first place because we wouldn’t want to inadvertently shame anyone. We are all equals after all and we all deserve to have high levels of “self esteem” regardless of our performance, personal conduct or any other tangible reason for these good feelings about ourselves. We are all awesome regardless, right?

I would submit that it is very healthy for us to feel bad about ourselves from time to time. It keeps us honest. It drives us to work to harder and perform better next time. It reminds us not to lie and cheat and treat others badly. When we fail we should feel it. When we are being lazy, something needs to kick us in the ass and get us moving. When we fail we should feel it. When we are contemplating doing something unethical that we think we can get away with, something needs to stop us. That thing is shame. Conversely, when we work hard we should feel satisfied. When we succeed we should get a rush. When we act rightly we should feel a quiet sense of pride. That, to me is what “self esteem” should be, a sense of worth based on actual merit as opposed to the assumption that you are good and awesome and worthy of praise simply because you happen to exist. Unmerited self aggrandizement is glorified as some high water mark of individual freedom and mental health. I just don’t think this is the case. I don’t think you can have the upside if you take out the down, but that’s what we’re all about as a society. We want the good without the bad, the joy without the pain, the chocolate sundae without the fat ass and none of us wants to pay our own freight.

So my point in all that is that if people grew up with a healthy internal sense of shame where it’s appropriate they might be less likely to require “shaming” as adults to keep them “in line”. Yes, I think that personal sense of shame should go off in your head like your personal Drill Sergeant screaming at you to put down that Cinnabon and get the hell off the couch. I think it should happen long before you actually become obese, but obviously it doesn’t. We are trying like hell to eliminate that Drill Sergeant all together and then we wonder why things get weird.

/semi on topic rant.

Sorry.

251

Instead of specific campaigns to ‘shame’ individuals I’d prefer to see a daily data sheet included in all newspapers & magazines highlighting various: Social, emotional, financial & nutritional etc stats & related problems.

Of course, that wouldn’t have the same visceral impact as an specific anti: Smoking, obesity, un-protected sex etc ad would have, though, enablement/education is a more morally acceptable model for changing behaviour than shaming IMO.

I would, however be fully in favour of ‘shaming’ & perhaps even shooting ALL parents & or educators who don’t allow children to participate in directly competitive sports etc:)

252

[quote]batman730 wrote:
I’ve been out of the discussion for a while and I only skimmed the last 8 pages or so, so apologies if this is redundant. I accept all the problems that have been pointed out with shaming as a social institution. I watch a video of a group of Sikh fundamentalists “shaming” some poor old man for being a drunk. The were dragging him through the streets, tearing his clothes, slapping his, face pulling his hair and basically announcing to everyone in a busy public area what a piece of garbage this guy is. It went on and on and on. I was sick with rage watching these young strong guys bullying this helpless drunk elderly guy. Afterword, I felt like I needed a drink, I can only imagine how the old guy felt. This is obviously an extreme example, but I don’t see how any sensible, compassionate person could argue that this is an effective way to promote positive change. Of course, their culture is so different from our own that I can’t necessarily grasp the dynamics of what was going on, but it definitely did not sit right with me.

However, I’d like to say something about the concept shame in general. I believe that the I’m OK you’re OK, let’s not keep score because everybody’s a winner and nobody should be criticized because we’re all special and unique culture we have embraced in recent years has deprived us of many of the positive personal and cultural effects of shame. We have, in many ways, lost the ability to properly experience shame, disappointment, remorse and other “negative” emotions. I believe this is an extension of our cultural obsession with excising even the slightest potential for any type discomfort from our lives. We had mandated fitness testing when we were in school. As I recall, we had an assembly after the testing where we were publicly awarded a Gold, Silver, Bronze or “Participation” patch based on set performance standards. It was a no nonsense, find out where you stand, and if you did well feel proud kind of thing. The program was discontinued, and I would speculate that it was because the kids who did less well felt bad about it. If you were to try to reinstate something like that, the push back would be enormous. “What if little billy who plays video games and drinks soda all day gets a ‘Participation’, feels bad about himself and commits suicide?”.

IMO you can’t really have pride without shame. As a result people are less and less inclined to perform out of a sense of personal pride and will only do so in pursuit of some real or perceived external reward or punishment. If you cut out shame, the “thrill of victory and the agony of defeat” is reduced to the “mean spirited satisfaction of beating the other guy and the indifference of defeat because winning isn’t that big a deal and/or the game was stupid/fixed/uncool to begin with”. Of course, really we shouldn’t keep score in the first place because we wouldn’t want to inadvertently shame anyone. We are all equals after all and we all deserve to have high levels of “self esteem” regardless of our performance, personal conduct or any other tangible reason for these good feelings about ourselves. We are all awesome regardless, right?

I would submit that it is very healthy for us to feel bad about ourselves from time to time. It keeps us honest. It drives us to work to harder and perform better next time. It reminds us not to lie and cheat and treat others badly. When we fail we should feel it. When we are being lazy, something needs to kick us in the ass and get us moving. When we fail we should feel it. When we are contemplating doing something unethical that we think we can get away with, something needs to stop us. That thing is shame. Conversely, when we work hard we should feel satisfied. When we succeed we should get a rush. When we act rightly we should feel a quiet sense of pride. That, to me is what “self esteem” should be, a sense of worth based on actual merit as opposed to the assumption that you are good and awesome and worthy of praise simply because you happen to exist. Unmerited self aggrandizement is glorified as some high water mark of individual freedom and mental health. I just don’t think this is the case. I don’t think you can have the upside if you take out the down, but that’s what we’re all about as a society. We want the good without the bad, the joy without the pain, the chocolate sundae without the fat ass and none of us wants to pay our own freight.

So my point in all that is that if people grew up with a healthy internal sense of shame where it’s appropriate they might be less likely to require “shaming” as adults to keep them “in line”. Yes, I think that personal sense of shame should go off in your head like your personal Drill Sergeant screaming at you to put down that Cinnabon and get the hell off the couch. I think it should happen long before you actually become obese, but obviously it doesn’t. We are trying like hell to eliminate that Drill Sergeant all together and then we wonder why things get weird.

/semi on topic rant.

Sorry.
[/quote]

Great effin post, batman. Well worth the read. This is EXACTLY what I’ve been attempting to get at this entire thread.

253

[quote]batman730 wrote:
I’ve been out of the discussion for a while and I only skimmed the last 8 pages or so, so apologies if this is redundant. I accept all the problems that have been pointed out with shaming as a social institution. I watch a video of a group of Sikh fundamentalists “shaming” some poor old man for being a drunk. The were dragging him through the streets, tearing his clothes, slapping his, face pulling his hair and basically announcing to everyone in a busy public area what a piece of garbage this guy is. It went on and on and on. I was sick with rage watching these young strong guys bullying this helpless drunk elderly guy. Afterword, I felt like I needed a drink, I can only imagine how the old guy felt. This is obviously an extreme example, but I don’t see how any sensible, compassionate person could argue that this is an effective way to promote positive change. Of course, their culture is so different from our own that I can’t necessarily grasp the dynamics of what was going on, but it definitely did not sit right with me.

However, I’d like to say something about the concept shame in general. I believe that the I’m OK you’re OK, let’s not keep score because everybody’s a winner and nobody should be criticized because we’re all special and unique culture we have embraced in recent years has deprived us of many of the positive personal and cultural effects of shame. We have, in many ways, lost the ability to properly experience shame, disappointment, remorse and other “negative” emotions. I believe this is an extension of our cultural obsession with excising even the slightest potential for any type discomfort from our lives. We had mandated fitness testing when we were in school. As I recall, we had an assembly after the testing where we were publicly awarded a Gold, Silver, Bronze or “Participation” patch based on set performance standards. It was a no nonsense, find out where you stand, and if you did well feel proud kind of thing. The program was discontinued, and I would speculate that it was because the kids who did less well felt bad about it. If you were to try to reinstate something like that, the push back would be enormous. “What if little billy who plays video games and drinks soda all day gets a ‘Participation’, feels bad about himself and commits suicide?”.

IMO you can’t really have pride without shame. As a result people are less and less inclined to perform out of a sense of personal pride and will only do so in pursuit of some real or perceived external reward or punishment. If you cut out shame, the “thrill of victory and the agony of defeat” is reduced to the “mean spirited satisfaction of beating the other guy and the indifference of defeat because winning isn’t that big a deal and/or the game was stupid/fixed/uncool to begin with”. Of course, really we shouldn’t keep score in the first place because we wouldn’t want to inadvertently shame anyone. We are all equals after all and we all deserve to have high levels of “self esteem” regardless of our performance, personal conduct or any other tangible reason for these good feelings about ourselves. We are all awesome regardless, right?

I would submit that it is very healthy for us to feel bad about ourselves from time to time. It keeps us honest. It drives us to work to harder and perform better next time. It reminds us not to lie and cheat and treat others badly. When we fail we should feel it. When we are being lazy, something needs to kick us in the ass and get us moving. When we fail we should feel it. When we are contemplating doing something unethical that we think we can get away with, something needs to stop us. That thing is shame. Conversely, when we work hard we should feel satisfied. When we succeed we should get a rush. When we act rightly we should feel a quiet sense of pride. That, to me is what “self esteem” should be, a sense of worth based on actual merit as opposed to the assumption that you are good and awesome and worthy of praise simply because you happen to exist. Unmerited self aggrandizement is glorified as some high water mark of individual freedom and mental health. I just don’t think this is the case. I don’t think you can have the upside if you take out the down, but that’s what we’re all about as a society. We want the good without the bad, the joy without the pain, the chocolate sundae without the fat ass and none of us wants to pay our own freight.

So my point in all that is that if people grew up with a healthy internal sense of shame where it’s appropriate they might be less likely to require “shaming” as adults to keep them “in line”. Yes, I think that personal sense of shame should go off in your head like your personal Drill Sergeant screaming at you to put down that Cinnabon and get the hell off the couch. I think it should happen long before you actually become obese, but obviously it doesn’t. We are trying like hell to eliminate that Drill Sergeant all together and then we wonder why things get weird.

/semi on topic rant.

Sorry.
[/quote]

Best post right here!

254

[quote]Chushin wrote:
[i]When it comes to athletes and sports media members, there is ? and should be ? only one ironclad rule that you never violate in print or on the airwaves.

You never, ever speak poorly of or disparage another man’s wife.[/i]

Wow, talk about timely…

And then saying you’re sorry because you snapped because you were having a rough day. That’s just the thing a wife herself would say!

I will say rotten, awful things to people if they deserve it even when I’m hapy as a little bluebird and just found five bucks.

255

[quote]batman730 wrote:
I’ve been out of the discussion for a while and I only skimmed the last 8 pages or so, so apologies if this is redundant. I accept all the problems that have been pointed out with shaming as a social institution. I watch a video of a group of Sikh fundamentalists “shaming” some poor old man for being a drunk. The were dragging him through the streets, tearing his clothes, slapping his, face pulling his hair and basically announcing to everyone in a busy public area what a piece of garbage this guy is. It went on and on and on. I was sick with rage watching these young strong guys bullying this helpless drunk elderly guy. Afterword, I felt like I needed a drink, I can only imagine how the old guy felt. This is obviously an extreme example, but I don’t see how any sensible, compassionate person could argue that this is an effective way to promote positive change. Of course, their culture is so different from our own that I can’t necessarily grasp the dynamics of what was going on, but it definitely did not sit right with me.

However, I’d like to say something about the concept shame in general. I believe that the I’m OK you’re OK, let’s not keep score because everybody’s a winner and nobody should be criticized because we’re all special and unique culture we have embraced in recent years has deprived us of many of the positive personal and cultural effects of shame. We have, in many ways, lost the ability to properly experience shame, disappointment, remorse and other “negative” emotions. I believe this is an extension of our cultural obsession with excising even the slightest potential for any type discomfort from our lives. We had mandated fitness testing when we were in school. As I recall, we had an assembly after the testing where we were publicly awarded a Gold, Silver, Bronze or “Participation” patch based on set performance standards. It was a no nonsense, find out where you stand, and if you did well feel proud kind of thing. The program was discontinued, and I would speculate that it was because the kids who did less well felt bad about it. If you were to try to reinstate something like that, the push back would be enormous. “What if little billy who plays video games and drinks soda all day gets a ‘Participation’, feels bad about himself and commits suicide?”.

IMO you can’t really have pride without shame. As a result people are less and less inclined to perform out of a sense of personal pride and will only do so in pursuit of some real or perceived external reward or punishment. If you cut out shame, the “thrill of victory and the agony of defeat” is reduced to the “mean spirited satisfaction of beating the other guy and the indifference of defeat because winning isn’t that big a deal and/or the game was stupid/fixed/uncool to begin with”. Of course, really we shouldn’t keep score in the first place because we wouldn’t want to inadvertently shame anyone. We are all equals after all and we all deserve to have high levels of “self esteem” regardless of our performance, personal conduct or any other tangible reason for these good feelings about ourselves. We are all awesome regardless, right?

I would submit that it is very healthy for us to feel bad about ourselves from time to time. It keeps us honest. It drives us to work to harder and perform better next time. It reminds us not to lie and cheat and treat others badly. When we fail we should feel it. When we are being lazy, something needs to kick us in the ass and get us moving. When we fail we should feel it. When we are contemplating doing something unethical that we think we can get away with, something needs to stop us. That thing is shame. Conversely, when we work hard we should feel satisfied. When we succeed we should get a rush. When we act rightly we should feel a quiet sense of pride. That, to me is what “self esteem” should be, a sense of worth based on actual merit as opposed to the assumption that you are good and awesome and worthy of praise simply because you happen to exist. Unmerited self aggrandizement is glorified as some high water mark of individual freedom and mental health. I just don’t think this is the case. I don’t think you can have the upside if you take out the down, but that’s what we’re all about as a society. We want the good without the bad, the joy without the pain, the chocolate sundae without the fat ass and none of us wants to pay our own freight.

So my point in all that is that if people grew up with a healthy internal sense of shame where it’s appropriate they might be less likely to require “shaming” as adults to keep them “in line”. Yes, I think that personal sense of shame should go off in your head like your personal Drill Sergeant screaming at you to put down that Cinnabon and get the hell off the couch. I think it should happen long before you actually become obese, but obviously it doesn’t. We are trying like hell to eliminate that Drill Sergeant all together and then we wonder why things get weird.

/semi on topic rant.

Sorry.
[/quote]

You consistently contribute posts of substance to this little waste of time we call GAL, it’s much appreciated!

256

Cortes, Mytch and Lanky: Glad someone took the time to wade through all that.

Thanks for the kind words.

257

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Cortes, Mytch and Lanky: Glad someone took the time to wade through all that.

Thanks for the kind words.[/quote]

I agree. That was great.

I believe shaming works very well in small groups, where everyone is connected with one another. By this, I mean a family or a friend group. The fear of what others that you care about will think of you can be a very motivating factor in preventing you from doing something bad, or driving you to accomplish something you know you can. I have had a very large group of close friends for the past 10 years or so and we definitely keep each other in line. Fortunately, nobody has done anything terrible aside from one guy(he was only with us for about a year), who was a piece of shit anyways and we ended our friendship with him.

258

This is a very good article on this subject, I thought it was relevant and I agree to a large degree.

259

Great article, orion.

Again, this is EXACTLY what I have been driving at this entire thread, only to have the argument get knocked off the tracks with every reply of yet another completely wrongheaded idea of what is actually implied by, and guaranteed by, shame.

From the article, which I highly recommend reading all of:

It is now orthodox to regard social stigma as a form of oppression, to be discarded on our collective quest for inner freedom. But the political philosophers and novelists of former times would have been horrified by such a view. In almost all matters that touched upon the core requirements of social order, they believed that the genial pressure of manners, morals, and customs?enforced by the various forms of disapproval, stigma, shame, and reproach?was a more powerful guarantor of civilized and lawful behavior than the laws themselves. Inner sanctions, they argued, more dependably maintain society than such external ones as policemen and courts.

Read it all.

260

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Great article, orion.

Again, this is EXACTLY what I have been driving at this entire thread, only to have the argument get knocked off the tracks with every reply of yet another completely wrongheaded idea of what is actually implied by, and guaranteed by, shame.

From the article, which I highly recommend reading all of:

It is now orthodox to regard social stigma as a form of oppression, to be discarded on our collective quest for inner freedom. But the political philosophers and novelists of former times would have been horrified by such a view. In almost all matters that touched upon the core requirements of social order, they believed that the genial pressure of manners, morals, and customs?enforced by the various forms of disapproval, stigma, shame, and reproach?was a more powerful guarantor of civilized and lawful behavior than the laws themselves. Inner sanctions, they argued, more dependably maintain society than such external ones as policemen and courts.

Read it all. [/quote]

The “Days of Yore” fallacy.

Back in my day, you could arbitrarily beat someone you owned to death just for shits and giggles, then put on a nice tuxedo and go down to the auction to buy another one. Maybe rape one of the females and say she used voodoo to seduce me!

Funny how different parts of the same time can be hearkened back to. Back when people were real right and proper, huh?