[quote]orion wrote:
no, I will not foot the bill for your idiocy and you know, your inability do not hold your legs together [/quote]
How about men’s inability to keep their pants zipped up? Or inability to wear a condom? Ever thought about that? Could men just take a modicum of responsibility here? Maybe get a little idea of what type of cunt they’re sinking their cock into before they do so?
You guys act like you’re so powerless here. Grow up.
[quote]kpsnap wrote:
Or inability to wear a condom? Ever thought about that? Could men just take a modicum of responsibility here? Maybe get a little idea of what type of cunt they’re sinking their cock into before they do so?
You guys act like you’re so powerless here. Grow up.[/quote]
Legally speaking, a man has no say in whether a woman carries a pregnancy to term, or terminates it. You’re in favour of the current arrangement, no?
Well if it’s your body, your choice, then it’s also your body YOUR responsibility.
If you want men to “grow up” then perhaps do the “grown up” thing and give us a say in the potential child we’ll be legally obligated to support.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
The right reaction to a woman that has not one, but two, three, four kids from different guys is not “poor victim”, its "bitch, are you retarded!? ".
[/quote]
No.
It’s “Well, now what are you going to do? 'Cause you’re not getting any money from me.”
Self-loathing born of shame will only lead to more self-destructive behavior.
You fucking idiot.
[/quote]
The right reaction is : “thank you for your demographic dynamism and for your devotion to the genetic diversity of our nation and specie. We need more people like you and less childless people who think they are productive and useful members of society just because they work hard to produce and consume useless shit.”
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
The right reaction to a woman that has not one, but two, three, four kids from different guys is not “poor victim”, its "bitch, are you retarded!? ".
[/quote]
No.
It’s “Well, now what are you going to do? 'Cause you’re not getting any money from me.”
Self-loathing born of shame will only lead to more self-destructive behavior.
You fucking idiot.
[/quote]
But you must agree, Chushin, that societal disapproval of this sort of behavior is not unwarranted. And the general acceptance of it is a pretty big reason it’s becoming continually worse.
Maybe the disconnect is the level at which so-called “shaming” occurs. Sure, it may not be the kindest or most virtuous behavior to tell a sexually active single mother of four half-siblings that she and her selfish, carnal stupidity are a part of some of the biggest problems in our society today (and before anyone gets me wrong, I hold those four absent fathers equally accountable), but to act like we should refrain, on the societal level, from expressing extreme disapproval at behaviors that are ripping our modern society apart at the seams seems pretty shortsighted, in my opinion. [/quote]
Dude, let’s move past the whole shaming thing and examine actual SOLUTIONS. What solution does shaming offer? What solution does societal disapproval offer? I’m not saying that footing the bill is the solution by any means, but shaming and/or societal disapproval does NOTHING to address the actual problem and put forth solutions.
Think about it. There are an infinite amount of things that society frowns upon that people still do. Not only is it naive, it’s overly-simplistic and the sign of a lemming to think that people’s behavior is that strongly rooted in what the societal norm is purported to be. These poor decisions simply don’t get made with that in mind. Remember the old anti-drug TV commercials? “No one says they want to grow up to be a junkie.” That’s entirely correct, but many still do. No one says they want to grow up to be a single mother of four from four different fathers, but it still happens.
The problem is not that society approves such behavior, which is completely dubious claim to make in the first place. The problem lies much further down than simply saying people don’t base their behavior on what society wants or expects. If you expect people to base their behavior on what the societal norm is you are sadly, sadly naive and out of touch with humanity.
Fuck, this whole website is a testament to people’s desires to operate outside the confines of conventional societal thinking. How many threads or strains within a thread have there been on this site about how society thinks people like Justin Bieber or Zac Efron are “ripped”? Sure, it’s two totally different phenomena, but the point is that people simply don’t look to society as a whole for a barometer with which to base their behavior. People are much more influenced by those in their immediate social circle, like their family and friends. Many, many people who are fat come from fat parents, many, many people who are single mothers come from single parents, many, many people who are irresponsible with their dicks and get multiple women pregnant with no means to support the resulting children come from similar situations. Shaming those people does nothing to break the cycle they are stuck in.
[quote]kamui wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
The right reaction to a woman that has not one, but two, three, four kids from different guys is not “poor victim”, its "bitch, are you retarded!? ".
[/quote]
No.
It’s “Well, now what are you going to do? 'Cause you’re not getting any money from me.”
Self-loathing born of shame will only lead to more self-destructive behavior.
You fucking idiot.
[/quote]
The right reaction is : “thank you for your demographic dynamism and for your devotion to the genetic diversity of our nation and specie. We need more people like you and less childless people who think they are productive and useful members of society just because they work hard to produce and consume useless shit.”
[/quote]
Haha! Interesting take.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]kpsnap wrote:
Or inability to wear a condom? Ever thought about that? Could men just take a modicum of responsibility here? Maybe get a little idea of what type of cunt they’re sinking their cock into before they do so?
You guys act like you’re so powerless here. Grow up.[/quote]
Legally speaking, a man has no say in whether a woman carries a pregnancy to term, or terminates it. You’re in favour of the current arrangement, no?
Well if it’s your body, your choice, then it’s also your body YOUR responsibility.
If you want men to “grow up” then perhaps do the “grown up” thing and give us a say in the potential child we’ll be legally obligated to support.
[/quote]
My point is that there would be no “potential child” if you kept your pants zipped or wore a condom. If you’re a responsible male, you oughta know who you’re sleeping with and take precautions. I have both a daughter and a son. And I will teach them both that it is their responsibility (equally) to ensure an unwanted pregnancy doesn’t happen. All this talk about shaming single mothers with no talk about shaming boys/men who are promiscuous and go around spreading their seed willy-nilly. That bothers me. It takes two to tango.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
The right reaction to a woman that has not one, but two, three, four kids from different guys is not “poor victim”, its "bitch, are you retarded!? ".
[/quote]
No.
It’s “Well, now what are you going to do? 'Cause you’re not getting any money from me.”
Self-loathing born of shame will only lead to more self-destructive behavior.
You fucking idiot.
[/quote]
But you must agree, Chushin, that societal disapproval of this sort of behavior is not unwarranted. And the general acceptance of it is a pretty big reason it’s becoming continually worse.
Maybe the disconnect is the level at which so-called “shaming” occurs. Sure, it may not be the kindest or most virtuous behavior to tell a sexually active single mother of four half-siblings that she and her selfish, carnal stupidity are a part of some of the biggest problems in our society today (and before anyone gets me wrong, I hold those four absent fathers equally accountable), but to act like we should refrain, on the societal level, from expressing extreme disapproval at behaviors that are ripping our modern society apart at the seams seems pretty shortsighted, in my opinion. [/quote]
Dude, let’s move past the whole shaming thing and examine actual SOLUTIONS. What solution does shaming offer? What solution does societal disapproval offer? I’m not saying that footing the bill is the solution by any means, but shaming and/or societal disapproval does NOTHING to address the actual problem and put forth solutions.
Think about it. There are an infinite amount of things that society frowns upon that people still do. Not only is it naive, it’s overly-simplistic and the sign of a lemming to think that people’s behavior is that strongly rooted in what the societal norm is purported to be. These poor decisions simply don’t get made with that in mind. Remember the old anti-drug TV commercials? “No one says they want to grow up to be a junkie.” That’s entirely correct, but many still do. No one says they want to grow up to be a single mother of four from four different fathers, but it still happens.
The problem is not that society approves such behavior, which is completely dubious claim to make in the first place. The problem lies much further down than simply saying people don’t base their behavior on what society wants or expects. If you expect people to base their behavior on what the societal norm is you are sadly, sadly naive and out of touch with humanity.
Fuck, this whole website is a testament to people’s desires to operate outside the confines of conventional societal thinking. How many threads or strains within a thread have there been on this site about how society thinks people like Justin Bieber or Zac Efron are “ripped”? Sure, it’s two totally different phenomena, but the point is that people simply don’t look to society as a whole for a barometer with which to base their behavior. People are much more influenced by those in their immediate social circle, like their family and friends. Many, many people who are fat come from fat parents, many, many people who are single mothers come from single parents, many, many people who are irresponsible with their dicks and get multiple women pregnant with no means to support the resulting children come from similar situations. Shaming those people does nothing to break the cycle they are stuck in.[/quote]
Well, colour me a naive, overly simplistic lemming I guess. I believe people are very much influenced by what society accepts and rejects. The desire to find something to conform to seems to be built into us on the cellular level. I imagine this has to do with the fact that, for much of our existence as a species the maverick, the rebel, the outsider who simply refused to go with the group was generally just a person who died alone, out in the cold. Conformity was essential to survival. We lived and died by imitation. As such I would say that there is a comfortable level of variance from the accepted norms beyond which the majority of people will begin to feel anxiety. The more you relax those norms to include a broader range of previously acceptable behaviours, the further that same majority people will go before they begin to experience that anxiety. Anxiety is not inherently a negative thing if it helps protect us from self destructive behaviours such as, IMO, drug abuse, promiscuity and laziness. Like I said earlier, not every “bad” feeling is bad for us.
When I am talking about accepted norms, I am not talking about what society ostensibly approves and disapproves of so much a what it actually does. When we say we disapprove of a behaviour in one breath but we can’t get enough of it in the form of trash media, reality TV, talk shows etc, it sends something of a mixed message IMO. I can’t really think of many things that our society actually disapproves of anymore. We may say we do but we can’t wait to get to the idiot box or the trash rags lap it up. We watch this endless parade of unwed teenage mother’s, drug addicted celebrities, morbidly obese people consuming absurd amounts of food and various other examples of people behaving completely without dignity or self respect. Suddenly whatever “unacceptable” behaviour we had been engaging in seems not so bad by comparison. That sense of anxiety lessens and we can let it all hang out just a little further. I guess this is good because we are “being ourselves” and not experiencing any “self-loathing”?
I agree with your statement that we are much more susceptible to the influence of people in our immediate circle than that of society at large. However as parents, teachers coaches etc, we are discouraged from expressing disapproval of any kind regardless of how substandard or outright appalling our charges’ behaviour or performance may become. To do so would apparently crush their self esteem. Apparently, none of us should never feel bad about anything, ever. To me this is, quite literally, insane.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
The right reaction to a woman that has not one, but two, three, four kids from different guys is not “poor victim”, its "bitch, are you retarded!? ".
[/quote]
No.
It’s “Well, now what are you going to do? 'Cause you’re not getting any money from me.”
Self-loathing born of shame will only lead to more self-destructive behavior.
You fucking idiot.
[/quote]
But you must agree, Chushin, that societal disapproval of this sort of behavior is not unwarranted. And the general acceptance of it is a pretty big reason it’s becoming continually worse.
Maybe the disconnect is the level at which so-called “shaming” occurs. Sure, it may not be the kindest or most virtuous behavior to tell a sexually active single mother of four half-siblings that she and her selfish, carnal stupidity are a part of some of the biggest problems in our society today (and before anyone gets me wrong, I hold those four absent fathers equally accountable), but to act like we should refrain, on the societal level, from expressing extreme disapproval at behaviors that are ripping our modern society apart at the seams seems pretty shortsighted, in my opinion. [/quote]
Dude, let’s move past the whole shaming thing and examine actual SOLUTIONS. What solution does shaming offer? What solution does societal disapproval offer? I’m not saying that footing the bill is the solution by any means, but shaming and/or societal disapproval does NOTHING to address the actual problem and put forth solutions.
Think about it. There are an infinite amount of things that society frowns upon that people still do. Not only is it naive, it’s overly-simplistic and the sign of a lemming to think that people’s behavior is that strongly rooted in what the societal norm is purported to be. These poor decisions simply don’t get made with that in mind. Remember the old anti-drug TV commercials? “No one says they want to grow up to be a junkie.” That’s entirely correct, but many still do. No one says they want to grow up to be a single mother of four from four different fathers, but it still happens.
The problem is not that society approves such behavior, which is completely dubious claim to make in the first place. The problem lies much further down than simply saying people don’t base their behavior on what society wants or expects. If you expect people to base their behavior on what the societal norm is you are sadly, sadly naive and out of touch with humanity.
Fuck, this whole website is a testament to people’s desires to operate outside the confines of conventional societal thinking. How many threads or strains within a thread have there been on this site about how society thinks people like Justin Bieber or Zac Efron are “ripped”? Sure, it’s two totally different phenomena, but the point is that people simply don’t look to society as a whole for a barometer with which to base their behavior. People are much more influenced by those in their immediate social circle, like their family and friends. Many, many people who are fat come from fat parents, many, many people who are single mothers come from single parents, many, many people who are irresponsible with their dicks and get multiple women pregnant with no means to support the resulting children come from similar situations. Shaming those people does nothing to break the cycle they are stuck in.[/quote]
Well, colour me a naive, overly simplistic lemming I guess. I believe people are very much influenced by what society accepts and rejects. The desire to find something to conform to seems to be built into us on the cellular level. I imagine this has to do with the fact that, for much of our existence as a species the maverick, the rebel, the outsider who simply refused to go with the group was generally just a person who died alone, out in the cold. Conformity was essential to survival. We lived and died by imitation. As such I would say that there is a comfortable level of variance from the accepted norms beyond which the majority of people will begin to feel anxiety. The more you relax those norms to include a broader range of previously acceptable behaviours, the further that same majority people will go before they begin to experience that anxiety. Anxiety is not inherently a negative thing if it helps protect us from self destructive behaviours such as, IMO, drug abuse, promiscuity and laziness. Like I said earlier, not every “bad” feeling is bad for us.
When I am talking about accepted norms, I am not talking about what society ostensibly approves and disapproves of so much a what it actually does. When we say we disapprove of a behaviour in one breath but we can’t get enough of it in the form of trash media, reality TV, talk shows etc, it sends something of a mixed message IMO. I can’t really think of many things that our society actually disapproves of anymore. We may say we do but we can’t wait to get to the idiot box or the trash rags lap it up. We watch this endless parade of unwed teenage mother’s, drug addicted celebrities, morbidly obese people consuming absurd amounts of food and various other examples of people behaving completely without dignity or self respect. Suddenly whatever “unacceptable” behaviour we had been engaging in seems not so bad by comparison. That sense of anxiety lessens and we can let it all hang out just a little further. I guess this is good because we are “being ourselves” and not experiencing any “self-loathing”?
I agree with your statement that we are much more susceptible to the influence of people in our immediate circle than that of society at large. However as parents, teachers coaches etc, we are discouraged from expressing disapproval of any kind regardless of how substandard or outright appalling our charges’ behaviour or performance may become. To do so would apparently crush their self esteem. Apparently, none of us should never feel bad about anything, ever. To me this is, quite literally, insane.
[/quote]
First of all, the rebellious loner has been someone that the rest of society has looked up to many respects for a very long time. In recent memory, people like Steve McQueen or Marlon Brando were idolized in part because of their perceived ability to operate successfully outside the conventional societal norms.
I’m talking more along the lines of social norms, not legal ones or the sort of thing that Thomas Hobbes would call the State of Nature. Sure, we give up certain things in order to live within a pretty well-defined set of norms that are codified and have repercussions for straying from. The poor choices that people make about their lives which we are talking about here are not criminal acts.
What was essential to survival was taking care of oneself first and foremost. What is now essential to survival is providing for oneself and staying within the confines of the law. Are you proposing that the poor choices discussed thus far should be outlawed?
Also, I think you are operating from a very erroneous position and stance about what society approves and disapproves of. Just because there is one show on MTV that shows the trial and tribulations of single teenage mothers does not mean society as a whole approves of this behavior. Most of what I hear about that particular show is negative and in no way even approaches glorifying that sort of behavior. The same can be said about literally every single other example you purport to be “accepted”. You’ve taken extreme examples and held them up as the standard that society subscribes to when that simply is not the case.
How can you say that obesity is acceptable within society when there are all sorts of efforts being made to prevent it? Healthier choices in school cafeterias, the absence of soda vending machines on many school campuses, the attempt to ban large-sized sodas in certain cities, the First Lady’s anti-obesity campaign, the banning of trans fats in many foods, the explosion of the fitness industry, etc., etc. is all clear evidence that society does not approve of obesity, for instance. There are numerous social programs that serve to combat teenage pregnancy. At the school I teach at, there are counselors, educational classes, posters, videos and books required for viewing and reading, places where condoms can be obtained (always controversial, I might add) and so forth that aim to educate teenagers about the dangers of having unprotected sex and that sort of thing. There are more abortion clinics than ever before and there are tons of different birth control methods. All of this is pretty clearcut evidence that society is NOT encouraging or accepting the sort of behavior discussed here.
What IS unacceptable in society is the sort of shaming that aims only to make a person feel bad without offering any sort of solution. You seem to be lumping everything into one big pot when that simply isn’t the case. Should society approve of obesity or teenage pregnancy or drug abuse? No, and I don’t think it really does (well, maybe a little bit when it comes to drug use). You’re leaping across a very big divide here and the reality lies somewhere out in that void you’ve leapt right over.
We should not accept this behavior, and we don’t. But we also shouldn’t accept shaming because it does not FIX anything. You’ve simply gone from one extreme to the next, one absolute to the next. Non-acceptance doesn’t have to mean shaming and ridicule, and the fact that certain things exist in our society does not mean that they are widely accepted. There’s a middle ground that the solution lies within.
[quote]kpsnap wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
no, I will not foot the bill for your idiocy and you know, your inability do not hold your legs together [/quote]
How about men’s inability to keep their pants zipped up? Or inability to wear a condom? Ever thought about that? Could men just take a modicum of responsibility here? Maybe get a little idea of what type of cunt they’re sinking their cock into before they do so?
You guys act like you’re so powerless here. Grow up.[/quote]
What?
No, I want Billie the Bastard to have to sell his bike, cut his hair and cover his tatoos just so that he can cover little Billies bills.
That will teach him, more than the money he has to fork over probably.
But I dont want to pay.
Plus, I am the Lord of the Condom.
The High Priest of Rubber.
Bicthes just want my essence.
I knowz it.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
The right reaction to a woman that has not one, but two, three, four kids from different guys is not “poor victim”, its "bitch, are you retarded!? ".
[/quote]
No.
It’s “Well, now what are you going to do? 'Cause you’re not getting any money from me.”
Self-loathing born of shame will only lead to more self-destructive behavior.
You fucking idiot.
[/quote]
But you must agree, Chushin, that societal disapproval of this sort of behavior is not unwarranted. And the general acceptance of it is a pretty big reason it’s becoming continually worse.
Maybe the disconnect is the level at which so-called “shaming” occurs. Sure, it may not be the kindest or most virtuous behavior to tell a sexually active single mother of four half-siblings that she and her selfish, carnal stupidity are a part of some of the biggest problems in our society today (and before anyone gets me wrong, I hold those four absent fathers equally accountable), but to act like we should refrain, on the societal level, from expressing extreme disapproval at behaviors that are ripping our modern society apart at the seams seems pretty shortsighted, in my opinion. [/quote]
Dude, let’s move past the whole shaming thing and examine actual SOLUTIONS. What solution does shaming offer? What solution does societal disapproval offer? I’m not saying that footing the bill is the solution by any means, but shaming and/or societal disapproval does NOTHING to address the actual problem and put forth solutions.
Think about it. There are an infinite amount of things that society frowns upon that people still do. Not only is it naive, it’s overly-simplistic and the sign of a lemming to think that people’s behavior is that strongly rooted in what the societal norm is purported to be. These poor decisions simply don’t get made with that in mind. Remember the old anti-drug TV commercials? “No one says they want to grow up to be a junkie.” That’s entirely correct, but many still do. No one says they want to grow up to be a single mother of four from four different fathers, but it still happens.
The problem is not that society approves such behavior, which is completely dubious claim to make in the first place. The problem lies much further down than simply saying people don’t base their behavior on what society wants or expects. If you expect people to base their behavior on what the societal norm is you are sadly, sadly naive and out of touch with humanity.
Fuck, this whole website is a testament to people’s desires to operate outside the confines of conventional societal thinking. How many threads or strains within a thread have there been on this site about how society thinks people like Justin Bieber or Zac Efron are “ripped”? Sure, it’s two totally different phenomena, but the point is that people simply don’t look to society as a whole for a barometer with which to base their behavior. People are much more influenced by those in their immediate social circle, like their family and friends. Many, many people who are fat come from fat parents, many, many people who are single mothers come from single parents, many, many people who are irresponsible with their dicks and get multiple women pregnant with no means to support the resulting children come from similar situations. Shaming those people does nothing to break the cycle they are stuck in.[/quote]
Well, colour me a naive, overly simplistic lemming I guess. I believe people are very much influenced by what society accepts and rejects. The desire to find something to conform to seems to be built into us on the cellular level. I imagine this has to do with the fact that, for much of our existence as a species the maverick, the rebel, the outsider who simply refused to go with the group was generally just a person who died alone, out in the cold. Conformity was essential to survival. We lived and died by imitation. As such I would say that there is a comfortable level of variance from the accepted norms beyond which the majority of people will begin to feel anxiety. The more you relax those norms to include a broader range of previously acceptable behaviours, the further that same majority people will go before they begin to experience that anxiety. Anxiety is not inherently a negative thing if it helps protect us from self destructive behaviours such as, IMO, drug abuse, promiscuity and laziness. Like I said earlier, not every “bad” feeling is bad for us.
When I am talking about accepted norms, I am not talking about what society ostensibly approves and disapproves of so much a what it actually does. When we say we disapprove of a behaviour in one breath but we can’t get enough of it in the form of trash media, reality TV, talk shows etc, it sends something of a mixed message IMO. I can’t really think of many things that our society actually disapproves of anymore. We may say we do but we can’t wait to get to the idiot box or the trash rags lap it up. We watch this endless parade of unwed teenage mother’s, drug addicted celebrities, morbidly obese people consuming absurd amounts of food and various other examples of people behaving completely without dignity or self respect. Suddenly whatever “unacceptable” behaviour we had been engaging in seems not so bad by comparison. That sense of anxiety lessens and we can let it all hang out just a little further. I guess this is good because we are “being ourselves” and not experiencing any “self-loathing”?
I agree with your statement that we are much more susceptible to the influence of people in our immediate circle than that of society at large. However as parents, teachers coaches etc, we are discouraged from expressing disapproval of any kind regardless of how substandard or outright appalling our charges’ behaviour or performance may become. To do so would apparently crush their self esteem. Apparently, none of us should never feel bad about anything, ever. To me this is, quite literally, insane.
[/quote]
First of all, the rebellious loner has been someone that the rest of society has looked up to many respects for a very long time. In recent memory, people like Steve McQueen or Marlon Brando were idolized in part because of their perceived ability to operate successfully outside the conventional societal norms.
I’m talking more along the lines of social norms, not legal ones or the sort of thing that Thomas Hobbes would call the State of Nature. Sure, we give up certain things in order to live within a pretty well-defined set of norms that are codified and have repercussions for straying from. The poor choices that people make about their lives which we are talking about here are not criminal acts.
What was essential to survival was taking care of oneself first and foremost. What is now essential to survival is providing for oneself and staying within the confines of the law. Are you proposing that the poor choices discussed thus far should be outlawed?
Also, I think you are operating from a very erroneous position and stance about what society approves and disapproves of. Just because there is one show on MTV that shows the trial and tribulations of single teenage mothers does not mean society as a whole approves of this behavior. Most of what I hear about that particular show is negative and in no way even approaches glorifying that sort of behavior. The same can be said about literally every single other example you purport to be “accepted”. You’ve taken extreme examples and held them up as the standard that society subscribes to when that simply is not the case.
How can you say that obesity is acceptable within society when there are all sorts of efforts being made to prevent it? Healthier choices in school cafeterias, the absence of soda vending machines on many school campuses, the attempt to ban large-sized sodas in certain cities, the First Lady’s anti-obesity campaign, the banning of trans fats in many foods, the explosion of the fitness industry, etc., etc. is all clear evidence that society does not approve of obesity, for instance. There are numerous social programs that serve to combat teenage pregnancy. At the school I teach at, there are counselors, educational classes, posters, videos and books required for viewing and reading, places where condoms can be obtained (always controversial, I might add) and so forth that aim to educate teenagers about the dangers of having unprotected sex and that sort of thing. There are more abortion clinics than ever before and there are tons of different birth control methods. All of this is pretty clearcut evidence that society is NOT encouraging or accepting the sort of behavior discussed here.
What IS unacceptable in society is the sort of shaming that aims only to make a person feel bad without offering any sort of solution. You seem to be lumping everything into one big pot when that simply isn’t the case. Should society approve of obesity or teenage pregnancy or drug abuse? No, and I don’t think it really does (well, maybe a little bit when it comes to drug use). You’re leaping across a very big divide here and the reality lies somewhere out in that void you’ve leapt right over.
We should not accept this behavior, and we don’t. But we also shouldn’t accept shaming because it does not FIX anything. You’ve simply gone from one extreme to the next, one absolute to the next. Non-acceptance doesn’t have to mean shaming and ridicule, and the fact that certain things exist in our society does not mean that they are widely accepted. There’s a middle ground that the solution lies within.[/quote]
You know what, you make some fair points here and I absolutely did use some extreme examples. My point was not that society holds these extreme examples as acceptable or glamorous, but rather that people love these extreme negative examples to look down on as it makes their own questionable behaviour seem much less egregious by comparison. “Well at least my teenage daughter only got pregnant one time and sends pictures of her genitals to boys on her iphone from time to time instead of having 6 babies by 6 different men and a meth habit. That would make me a REALLY bad parent”.
Honestly, I completely agree that the solution does lie in finding some kind of middle ground. In fact, this is at the heart of my stance on this issue. However systematically removing any type of “negative” reinforcement from our toolboxes is not middle ground in my opinion. By definition, this is yet another extreme, IMO. I absolutely prefer to emphasize positive reinforcement when coaching or parenting, but as I have said before, sometimes it is good for us to feel bad about ourselves. I absolutely agree that shaming without offering solutions is pointless. When I am coaching if one of my trainees screws the pooch for want of effort I think he should feel ashamed of himself for letting himself and his teammates down and he should be offered the solution of pulling up his socks and not screwing the pooch next time. I am alright with letting him know this. I honestly do it out of love and the desire to see him succeed. You’re not supposed to do that any more. Apparently people have become so fragile that any whiff of the idea that they may be under-performing will send them into a tailspin of crippled self-esteem from which they will never recover. Or maybe they will recognize when we are sucking, because someone they respect has told them so, and then they will get mad and bring up their game accordingly and then feel a much deeper sens of satisfaction when they win the approval of that person whom they respect. I’ve seen it happen. True story.
Similarly when my 3 year old daughter hurts somebody or is rude or cruel, careless or disrespectful in some way, I make my feelings known on the subject, clearly and strongly. As a result she generally feels some guilt, sadness and/or, dare I say it, shame. This makes me a horrible father, I know, but do I offer the solution that she can be more kind, polite, attentive and respectful in the future and thus avoid my disapproval and gain my approval which I voice even more strongly and frequently. However it must be earned (not my love, just my approval). This will no doubt do permanent damage to her self-esteem resulting in her becoming the unwed, meth-addicted teenage mother of 6 half-siblings. Of course, it is also possible that she’ll develop into a kind, reasonable young lady with a healthy amount of “moral ballast” and a sense of dignity, conscience and self respect that is based on her actions as well as her innate human worth. Time will tell.
I realize this thread began primarily about obesity. However, to be honest I have particularly strong feelings about obese people one way or the other. That said, I can’t really agree with you’re statement that obesity is socially unacceptable. When over 1/3 of a country’s population is a certain way it seems hard to say that it’s unacceptable in any meaningful way. That said, it’s not really what I’m talking about here. I take issue more with the idea that under no circumstances should anyone be disapproved of or made to feel bad about their conduct or performance. I don’t feel that an overly rigid structure of shame based conformity (such as Cortes mentions in his Japan example) is desirable. Neither do I think an anything-goes-and-we’re-all-awesome-special-winners-no-matter-what approach such as the one we appear to be trying to promote is an ideal alternative. As you rightly point out, the answer lies somewhere in the middle ground. I don’t at all mean to suggest that we should follow overweight people down the street singing “Fatty Fatty 4 by 4”, or paint “SLUT” on unwed teenage mothers’ houses or make adulteresses wear the scarlet letter. This should seem absurd to any compassionate, rational person.
However, I don’t think that coddling, supporting and approving of people regardless of what they do is healthy either. I think people ought to hold themselves to certain standards and should feel bad (not soul crushingly, irredeemably bad) when they act in ways that are inconsistent with those standards. Somebody needs to teach this to people because it is not something that the majority will default to on their own, IMO. It seems that few people are trying to teach/promote this and many of them are admonished for daring to be critical, for having the nerve to require someone to earn approval and respect based on merit.