Shaming People

Off Topic
201

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
So while I’m thinking about it, a question for Cortes then I’m out of the thread-

Is this demonstration of behavior by therajraj what you were referring to when you mentioned lack of humility?

[/quote]

It was over the top and uncalled for, and not the kind of behavior I support.

In his defense, he almost immediately sincerely apologized, I see, which IS a demonstration of humility.

And, having dealt with raj for a long time now, and gotten into pretty heated debates with him where our views are completely opposite one another, too, I think he’s a good guy who just sometimes gets a bit emotional discussing emotional topics. I have done the same. Hell, look at some of my earlier exchanges with DB, or Dark Ninjaa. So I, personally, can’t throw any stones here. [/quote]

Come on, Cortes. He apologized three hours after the initial comment, not immediately. And I suspect that since pretty much every comment in the thread after his initial comment called him out for it, that he was not motivated to apologize by sincere regret for how it made Skyzkys feel.

Besides, he also rationalized why he made the insult, which further undermines his sincerity. You and I have gone at it in the past but have clearly been able to move past that and have constructive arguments with each other. I’ve been down this road with Raj before and the behavior doesn’t change at all. This is actually pretty typical behavior on his part. Like I said in my last post, he’s used my honesty about my sobriety to insult me and disregard things I’ve said because, and I quote, I’m a “dumb fucking coke head” and that sort of thing. [/quote]

Like I said, I do not support such behavior. But if someone sincerely apologizes, and he did, I can’t help but forgive them.

I understand your feelings, though, and if he has used your own admissions of weakness in the face of addiction against you (which you KNOW I understand the gravity of) without demonstrating similar remorse afterward, then I think your reaction is perfectly reasonable and even justified.

I must say, though, I can’t help but note the irony of this little episode of Days of Our Lives in the context of this thread:

  1. Raj committed a socially unacceptable sin.
  2. He was quickly scolded by the community, his actions were decried, and he was even ostracized (ignored).
  3. He reflected upon those actions, repented, apologized, and, hopefully, mended his ways, at least for now.

If that’s not the shame/humility/social propriety regulating mechanism at work then I don’t know what is. (^_^)b[/quote]

The analogy is moot since his apology wasn’t sincere in the first place ( he even said he had no one to apologize to if Skyzkys was ignoring him and I don’t know about you, but rationalizing the behavior being apologized for negates any sincerity in my book) AND this is not an isolated incident with him. I guarantee you something along these lines happens again in the future since it’s a pattern he’s already established.

203

I love DB’s writing style so much.

It’s like our board is lucky enough to have its very own Kurt Vonnegut/Hunter Thompson/Bill Hicks(reformed)!

204

[quote]Nards wrote:
I love DB’s writing style so much.

It’s like our board is lucky enough to have its very own Kurt Vonnegut/Hunter Thompson/Bill Hicks(reformed)![/quote]

only started reading them recently having always bypassd due to their length

glad that i did generally

205


http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

OP went full DH0, never go full DH0.

206

[quote]Nards wrote:
I love DB’s writing style so much.

It’s like our board is lucky enough to have its very own Kurt Vonnegut/Hunter Thompson/Bill Hicks(reformed)![/quote]

It really is great. I’m waiting for him to publish one of those best sellers in his head…I’ll be reading for sure.

And regarding the whole Raj thing - it’s never ok to insult a man’s wife. You just don’t do that. I don’t care what caused it, there are some lines that shouldn’t be crossed and that is one of them.

I’ve never had an issue with Raj, but seriously, Cortes, you have to be able to see the difference between throwing stones (something I’ve done my fair share of) and insulting a man’s family. If someone said something like that to me in real life, they’d be leaving in an ambulance. That’s not tough guy talk. I can laugh and shrug off any insult thrown my way, but do not insult my family. I draw a pretty distinct line right there and I think most humans feel the same way.

207

[quote]Nards wrote:
I love DB’s writing style so much.

It’s like our board is lucky enough to have its very own Kurt Vonnegut/Hunter Thompson/Bill Hicks(reformed)![/quote]

Thanks Nards. And Lanky. And yolo.

Hey Lanky, you mentioned one of the many unwritten novels floating around in my head. It’s funny you say that because I’ve seriously been considering sitting down and sketching out the idea for a novel and getting to it. I have a couple ideas about what I want to say, because good writers always have Something To Say, but I’d be curious to know what you, and others, think is something that might make an interesting topic. I don’t want to reveal anything about what I have in mind so far, only that it will definitely lean toward addressing narcissism in our society, maybe in some American Psycho meets Brave New World sort of way.

208

[quote]yolo84 wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:
I love DB’s writing style so much.

It’s like our board is lucky enough to have its very own Kurt Vonnegut/Hunter Thompson/Bill Hicks(reformed)![/quote]

only started reading them recently having always bypassd due to their length

glad that i did generally[/quote]

209

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:
I love DB’s writing style so much.

It’s like our board is lucky enough to have its very own Kurt Vonnegut/Hunter Thompson/Bill Hicks(reformed)![/quote]

Thanks Nards. And Lanky. And yolo.

Hey Lanky, you mentioned one of the many unwritten novels floating around in my head. It’s funny you say that because I’ve seriously been considering sitting down and sketching out the idea for a novel and getting to it. I have a couple ideas about what I want to say, because good writers always have Something To Say, but I’d be curious to know what you, and others, think is something that might make an interesting topic. I don’t want to reveal anything about what I have in mind so far, only that it will definitely lean toward addressing narcissism in our society, maybe in some American Psycho meets Brave New World sort of way.[/quote]

Just yesterday I downloaded WAOVW and plan on watching it this weekend. I’ve caught bits and peices over the years but never the whole thing. This is your doing fucker. BTW, you never did answer my question in the jeapoardy thread. It was an easy one too. After all I figured it out in no time.

You mentioned earlier about working in a hospital. I couldn’t agree more. I’ve had a job in a large hospital for a couple years now. It’s life changing to say the least. You catch yourself pissing and moaning about this or that and then the morgue cart goes by lol.

210

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:
I love DB’s writing style so much.

It’s like our board is lucky enough to have its very own Kurt Vonnegut/Hunter Thompson/Bill Hicks(reformed)![/quote]

I can laugh and shrug off any insult thrown my way, but do not insult my family. I draw a pretty distinct line right there and I think most humans feel the same way. [/quote]

Well put…even on the internet there are SOME rules.

211

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

In his defense, he almost immediately sincerely apologized, I see, which IS a demonstration of humility.
[/quote]

Um, I think you might want to take another look at the time stamps on his original comment vs. his “apology.”

And that apology only came when I called him out for not offering one.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
And, having dealt with raj for a long time now, and gotten into pretty heated debates with him where our views are completely opposite one another, too, I think he’s a good guy who just sometimes gets a bit emotional discussing emotional topics. I have done the same. Hell, look at some of my earlier exchanges with DB, or Dark Ninjaa. So I, personally, can’t throw any stones here. [/quote]

THIS is a demonstration of humility.

And you would NEVER say such a vile thing, my friend.

Not looking to argue with you, and can respect you standing up for a friend, but his behavior was utterly and totally inexcusable. I don’t believe it should be minimized in any way.

OK, that’s my last on this. [/quote]

It’s a good point that I would never even entertain saying something like that in response to, well, anyone, ever.

I do still believe this is a perfect example of how community disapproval and censure works to teach and enforce social mores. In other words: Shame begets humility. Or, at least, obsequiousness.

212

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

In his defense, he almost immediately sincerely apologized, I see, which IS a demonstration of humility.
[/quote]

Um, I think you might want to take another look at the time stamps on his original comment vs. his “apology.”

And that apology only came when I called him out for not offering one.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
And, having dealt with raj for a long time now, and gotten into pretty heated debates with him where our views are completely opposite one another, too, I think he’s a good guy who just sometimes gets a bit emotional discussing emotional topics. I have done the same. Hell, look at some of my earlier exchanges with DB, or Dark Ninjaa. So I, personally, can’t throw any stones here. [/quote]

THIS is a demonstration of humility.

And you would NEVER say such a vile thing, my friend.

Not looking to argue with you, and can respect you standing up for a friend, but his behavior was utterly and totally inexcusable. I don’t believe it should be minimized in any way.

OK, that’s my last on this. [/quote]

It’s a good point that I would never even entertain saying something like that in response to, well, anyone, ever.

I do still believe this is a perfect example of how community disapproval and censure works to teach and enforce social mores. In other words: Shame begets humility. Or, at least, obsequiousness. [/quote]

But does the reaction have longevity? I’m not nearly as familiar with Rajs past posts as DB, but it’s like the drug addict swearing in front of your face that he’s never going to use again. Is he just saying that, or has he been shamed into sobriety?

213

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:
I love DB’s writing style so much.

It’s like our board is lucky enough to have its very own Kurt Vonnegut/Hunter Thompson/Bill Hicks(reformed)![/quote]

Thanks Nards. And Lanky. And yolo.

Hey Lanky, you mentioned one of the many unwritten novels floating around in my head. It’s funny you say that because I’ve seriously been considering sitting down and sketching out the idea for a novel and getting to it. I have a couple ideas about what I want to say, because good writers always have Something To Say, but I’d be curious to know what you, and others, think is something that might make an interesting topic. I don’t want to reveal anything about what I have in mind so far, only that it will definitely lean toward addressing narcissism in our society, maybe in some American Psycho meets Brave New World sort of way.[/quote]

I’d be the last person you should be asking for ideas, I don’t have a creative bone in my body. I did enjoy American Psycho and Brave New World, so it sounds promising.

214

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Nards wrote:
I love DB’s writing style so much.

It’s like our board is lucky enough to have its very own Kurt Vonnegut/Hunter Thompson/Bill Hicks(reformed)![/quote]

Thanks Nards. And Lanky. And yolo.

Hey Lanky, you mentioned one of the many unwritten novels floating around in my head. It’s funny you say that because I’ve seriously been considering sitting down and sketching out the idea for a novel and getting to it. I have a couple ideas about what I want to say, because good writers always have Something To Say, but I’d be curious to know what you, and others, think is something that might make an interesting topic. I don’t want to reveal anything about what I have in mind so far, only that it will definitely lean toward addressing narcissism in our society, maybe in some American Psycho meets Brave New World sort of way.[/quote]

you should start a new thread asking for input likely get more people to view it than this post

maybe include some ramblings on various topics etc and build something off of that

either way i would imagine it would be popular

i think your posts come across extremely well

215

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

In his defense, he almost immediately sincerely apologized, I see, which IS a demonstration of humility.
[/quote]

Um, I think you might want to take another look at the time stamps on his original comment vs. his “apology.”

And that apology only came when I called him out for not offering one.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
And, having dealt with raj for a long time now, and gotten into pretty heated debates with him where our views are completely opposite one another, too, I think he’s a good guy who just sometimes gets a bit emotional discussing emotional topics. I have done the same. Hell, look at some of my earlier exchanges with DB, or Dark Ninjaa. So I, personally, can’t throw any stones here. [/quote]

THIS is a demonstration of humility.

And you would NEVER say such a vile thing, my friend.

Not looking to argue with you, and can respect you standing up for a friend, but his behavior was utterly and totally inexcusable. I don’t believe it should be minimized in any way.

OK, that’s my last on this. [/quote]

It’s a good point that I would never even entertain saying something like that in response to, well, anyone, ever.

I do still believe this is a perfect example of how community disapproval and censure works to teach and enforce social mores. In other words: Shame begets humility. Or, at least, obsequiousness. [/quote]

But does the reaction have longevity? I’m not nearly as familiar with Rajs past posts as DB, but it’s like the drug addict swearing in front of your face that he’s never going to use again. Is he just saying that, or has he been shamed into sobriety? [/quote]

I was not aware when I first posted of any other incidences of this sort of behavior, but it does now appear that this is not the first time this has occurred…

216

One always has to be wary of people who are too willing to shame others and see the world as black and white. It’s almost always the same folks here.

I think the older I get, the more I understand the “walk a day in his shoes” statement. It’s so easy to be critical of something one has never faced: a weight problem, a drug addiction, financial distress, an unwanted pregnancy. It’s entirely different to actually be in the situation.

I think shaming sucks. And most people who have been at the receiving end will agree. Positive reinforcement works better. But I believe that it ultimately comes down to personal choice and perseverance to make a change.

217

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
One always has to be wary of people who are too willing to shame others and see the world as black and white. It’s almost always the same folks here.

I think the older I get, the more I understand the “walk a day in his shoes” statement. It’s so easy to be critical of something one has never faced: a weight problem, a drug addiction, financial distress, an unwanted pregnancy. It’s entirely different to actually be in the situation.

I think shaming sucks. And most people who have been at the receiving end will agree. Positive reinforcement works better. But I believe that it ultimately comes down to personal choice and perseverance to make a change.

[/quote]

The thing is, positive reinforcement needs to be done, liberals do not read any further, on a personal level.

It needs families and functioning communities.

SHAME however, can be doled out in spades by persons you do not even know, in fact, the very refusal to even get to know you speaks volumes.

This is not just about how it would work in ideal circumstances, this is trying to make it work in real life and there shame has a lot of advantages.

218

[quote]kpsnap wrote:
One always has to be wary of people who are too willing to shame others and see the world as black and white. It’s almost always the same folks here.

I think the older I get, the more I understand the “walk a day in his shoes” statement. It’s so easy to be critical of something one has never faced: a weight problem, a drug addiction, financial distress, an unwanted pregnancy. It’s entirely different to actually be in the situation.

I think shaming sucks. And most people who have been at the receiving end will agree. Positive reinforcement works better. But I believe that it ultimately comes down to personal choice and perseverance to make a change.

[/quote]

That’s a good point. Shaming is mean spirited to some degree but I think this thread is more a response to the “fat-acceptance” attitude that seems so PC lately. Some of us are just getting a bit sick of it.

219

[quote]orion wrote:
The thing is, positive reinforcement needs to be done, liberals do not read any further, on a personal level.
[/quote]
I don’t understand what you’re saying.

220

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
The thing is, positive reinforcement needs to be done, liberals do not read any further, on a personal level.
[/quote]
I don’t understand what you’re saying.[/quote]

Positive reinforcement has to be done on a one on one basis, preferably by people you love and respect.

That is a serious drawback, because negatiove reinforcement can be doled out by people who do not even know you.

Whereas building people up when they do the “right” thing( which cannot even be done on a societal level for the simple reason that we do not even agree on what the “right” thing is) might be the best thing in a laboratory setting, heavy negative feedback has some serious real life advantages.