Shaming People

Off Topic
182

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Alright guys, ill admit I was out of line with that comment.

Some crap was happening at work and I used my reply to skyzks to vent my anger.

While I do think you are rationalizing I shouldn’t have chosen the words I did. You’re obviously just concerned about your wife.

See shaming does work? [/quote]

Is that supposed to be the sincere apology that Skyz deserves?

Christ, son, do you have NO class?[/quote]

No.

skyzks put me on ignore I’m only admitting I was wrong in that post.

I don’t owe you or any of the others who spoken out an apology, just the guys whose wife I’ve insulted.

If he’s put me on ignore there’s no one to apologize to.

183

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
One day Buddha was walking through a village. A very angry and rude
(and sad) young man came up to him and began insulting him.

“You have no right to be teaching others!!!” he shouted.
“You are as stupid as everyone else. You are nothing but a fake!!”

Buddha was not upset by these insults. He just smiled. The man insulted him again and again but the only reaction he could get back from the Buddha was a
smile and silence. Finally he stomped his feet and left cursing.

The disciples were feeling angry and one of the them couldn?t keep quiet and asked the Buddha, ?Why didn?t you reply to the rude man??

The Buddha replied, ?If someone offers you a gift, and you refuse to accept it, to whom does the gift belong??
?Of course to the person who brought the gift,? replied the disciple. ?That is correct,? smiled the Djay Buddha[/quote]

Missed an opportunity there to shame Buddha into losing some weight.

184

I think that is the most fucked up shit I have read on these boards. One thing to toss insults around about each other, another level to insult a wife…making my blood boil just thinking about.

your a fucking dolt Raj

185

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Yeesh. Here I go picking this up again, I just want to make clear that I was not suggesting we should be bullying or otherwise tormenting or harassing people.
[/quote]

I want to make clear that I think that this is absolutely necessary in order for shaming to work.

And I am all for shaming, cause I dont like it when people whith guns coerce you, but when civil society shuns you, that might be brutal, but people are free to associate with whomever they want to.

186

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Or is this one sweeping generalization to help you rationalize not doing anything about your wife’s stretch marked covered rolls?[/quote]

O_o

187

Skyzks - I apologize for my comments about your wife. I was way out of line and shouldn’t’ve taken things to such a personal level.

I was a real dick head there.

189

I think the pro-shamer(s) just want to be free to yell at fat people and have others there to yell with them and back them up.

Also, do not pretend that you are for shaming because deep down you really want to get these people the help they need.
I’d bet a case of beer that if you heard about an obese person dying from being obese you wouldn’t say “DAMMIT! There was one I could have saved if only we could have shamed them!” ( a la Oskar Schindler) but really would say “HA! You got what you deserved you cow!”

190

[quote]Nards wrote:
I think the pro-shamer(s) just want to be free to yell at fat people and have others there to yell with them and back them up.

Also, do not pretend that you are for shaming because deep down you really want to get these people the help they need.
I’d bet a case of beer that if you heard about an obese person dying from being obese you wouldn’t say “DAMMIT! There was one I could have saved if only we could have shamed them!” ( a la Oskar Schindler) but really would say “HA! You got what you deserved you cow!”[/quote]

Thats not true, personnaly I do not want to shame anyone, because I cannot be bothered.

BUT, I want them to be shamed.

191

[quote]roybot wrote:
Missed an opportunity there to shame Buddha into losing some weight. [/quote]

Wasn’t that going to be the name of Salman Rushdie’s next book, “Buddha, that Fat Fuck!” ?

192

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]roybot wrote:
Missed an opportunity there to shame Buddha into losing some weight. [/quote]

Wasn’t that going to be the name of Salman Rushdie’s next book, “Buddha, that Fat Fuck!” ?
[/quote]
He actually has a book titled shame.

193

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I notice all the people against shaming are also the ones in favour of promoting a healthy lifestyle.

My question is, where is the evidence that will work?[/quote]

The evidence of this is hidden away in virtually every psychological study and strategy done and developed to understand and implement a system to modify behavior.

The results overwhelmingly point out that positive reinforcement on a random reward schedule trumps the fuck out of negative reinforcement, which is what shaming actually is.

Feel free to be ashamed now that you have gotten twenty pages into an argument without a fundamental understanding of what the hell you are talking about.
[/quote]

Do you have any actual direct evidence that positive reinforcement trumps negative reinforcement in the context of fat people?

Or is this one sweeping generalization to help you rationalize not doing anything about your wife’s stretch marked covered rolls?[/quote]

Yeesh, raj.

Too far, man. Not cool.

194

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
So while I’m thinking about it, a question for Cortes then I’m out of the thread-

Is this demonstration of behavior by therajraj what you were referring to when you mentioned lack of humility?

[/quote]

It was over the top and uncalled for, and not the kind of behavior I support.

In his defense, he almost immediately sincerely apologized, I see, which IS a demonstration of humility.

And, having dealt with raj for a long time now, and gotten into pretty heated debates with him where our views are completely opposite one another, too, I think he’s a good guy who just sometimes gets a bit emotional discussing emotional topics. I have done the same. Hell, look at some of my earlier exchanges with DB, or Dark Ninjaa. So I, personally, can’t throw any stones here.

195

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Alright guys, ill admit I was out of line with that comment.

Some crap was happening at work and I used my reply to skyzks to vent my anger.

While I do think you are rationalizing I shouldn’t have chosen the words I did. You’re obviously just concerned about your wife.

See shaming does work? [/quote]

First of all Raj, any apology you make is totally insincere and irrelevant at this point. You’ve lashed out before and you’ll do it again. I’ve revealed the nature of my sobriety and the nature of my life before getting sober in the past and you’ve used it during arguments (albeit, not in a long time) to disregard what I say because I’m a “fucking coke head” and a “worthless drunk” and so on. You point to 12-step programs’ 90% rate of failure rather than acknowledge that I know what I’m talking about from personal experience, which is nothing more than your unintelligent way of insulting something I believe strongly in because I’ve seen it work and I am alive because it works.

You’ve never made a single cogent point in this entire thread and now that it’s been pointed out to you, you’ve once again resorted to personal attacks that cross the line.

It’s one thing to call someone some names and insult them; it’s another entirely to use something of a highly personal nature like my sobriety or Skyzyks’ wife’s weight problems (which was pretty brave of him to share) to insult someone when your pitiful argument is failing miserably. Once again, you’ve shown your true colors.

You’re a worthless piece of garbage who has literally spent this entire thread justifying making other people feel like shit for the problems in their lives that have spun out of control. That speaks VOLUMES about the type of person you are. You have offered not one single legitimate solution to any of the problems you are so quick to point out. You have spent the whole thread telling everyone here what is wrong with a culture that you don’t even live in and have not been able to point to anything but unverifiable claims and personal bias as evidence for your arguments.

You’re a sad, sad person filled with hate for those who are in need of compassion from others. You deride people who call for compassion for those who have made mistakes in their lives, and now you ask for the forgiveness of others for making a mistake in this thread. Even you are intelligent enough to see the irony here.

I suggest you get out in the real world and do some volunteer work with single-parent children or at a soup kitchen or volunteer to drive people from the detox center at a hospital to an AA meeting or visit a rest home or do SOMETHING that gets you out of the sheltered little world you live in and into the lives of people who need help. Because right now, every last thing you have posted in this thread, along with many others, makes it painfully obvious that the only thing you know about the sort of people you are quick to judge is what you get from Internet searches whose sole aim is simply to reinforce your biased, ignorant worldview. Challenge your worldview, Raj. It would do you immense good.

196

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
So while I’m thinking about it, a question for Cortes then I’m out of the thread-

Is this demonstration of behavior by therajraj what you were referring to when you mentioned lack of humility?

[/quote]

It was over the top and uncalled for, and not the kind of behavior I support.

In his defense, he almost immediately sincerely apologized, I see, which IS a demonstration of humility.

And, having dealt with raj for a long time now, and gotten into pretty heated debates with him where our views are completely opposite one another, too, I think he’s a good guy who just sometimes gets a bit emotional discussing emotional topics. I have done the same. Hell, look at some of my earlier exchanges with DB, or Dark Ninjaa. So I, personally, can’t throw any stones here. [/quote]

Come on, Cortes. He apologized three hours after the initial comment, not immediately. And I suspect that since pretty much every comment in the thread after his initial comment called him out for it, that he was not motivated to apologize by sincere regret for how it made Skyzkys feel.

Besides, he also rationalized why he made the insult, which further undermines his sincerity. You and I have gone at it in the past but have clearly been able to move past that and have constructive arguments with each other. I’ve been down this road with Raj before and the behavior doesn’t change at all. This is actually pretty typical behavior on his part. Like I said in my last post, he’s used my honesty about my sobriety to insult me and disregard things I’ve said because, and I quote, I’m a “dumb fucking coke head” and that sort of thing.

197

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I notice all the people against shaming are also the ones in favour of promoting a healthy lifestyle.

My question is, where is the evidence that will work?[/quote]

My sobriety and the thousands of people I’ve known who got sober.[/quote]

I just googled it and according to this site 12 step programs have a 90% failure rate.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

[/quote]

Here’s what’s wrong this statistic, Raj. And quite frankly, your application of statistics to bolster your arguments is really starting to embarrass you.

First of all, I would like to point out that I do not think that 12-step programs are the only way to permanent sobriety. But it IS what worked for me.

Anyways, back to the point. You see, 12-step programs appear to have a low success rate because people confuse going to meetings and half-assing the program with The Program. People who fail to stay sober fail because they don’t follow the program anymore.

I have NEVER seen someone actually follow the program sincerely and completely and then go out and get fucked up anyways. These statistics assume that those who fail to stay sober failed because the program didn’t work. Which is a complete copout that removes the personal responsibility and accountability that one has for their sobriety from the equation. Blame the program so that you don’t have to accept any responsibility. That is the epitome of alcoholic or drug addict logic, the sort of logic that leads people to make all sorts of horrible decisions about their lives that eventually lead them back to the program, to jail or to the bottom of a grave.

198

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Also can we really equate shaming drunks effectiveness to shaming the average obese person?

Seems like 2 different breeds of people [/quote]

They aren’t two different breeds of people. Two different vices, yes. But, since you have obviously never had any meaningful contact with these types where you have sought to help with the nature of their problems, I wouldn’t expect you to be capable of understanding a whole lot about them.

199

Back to the original topic. I saw this article on Yahoo earlier tonight. Thoughts?

200

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
So while I’m thinking about it, a question for Cortes then I’m out of the thread-

Is this demonstration of behavior by therajraj what you were referring to when you mentioned lack of humility?

[/quote]

It was over the top and uncalled for, and not the kind of behavior I support.

In his defense, he almost immediately sincerely apologized, I see, which IS a demonstration of humility.

And, having dealt with raj for a long time now, and gotten into pretty heated debates with him where our views are completely opposite one another, too, I think he’s a good guy who just sometimes gets a bit emotional discussing emotional topics. I have done the same. Hell, look at some of my earlier exchanges with DB, or Dark Ninjaa. So I, personally, can’t throw any stones here. [/quote]

Come on, Cortes. He apologized three hours after the initial comment, not immediately. And I suspect that since pretty much every comment in the thread after his initial comment called him out for it, that he was not motivated to apologize by sincere regret for how it made Skyzkys feel.

Besides, he also rationalized why he made the insult, which further undermines his sincerity. You and I have gone at it in the past but have clearly been able to move past that and have constructive arguments with each other. I’ve been down this road with Raj before and the behavior doesn’t change at all. This is actually pretty typical behavior on his part. Like I said in my last post, he’s used my honesty about my sobriety to insult me and disregard things I’ve said because, and I quote, I’m a “dumb fucking coke head” and that sort of thing. [/quote]

Like I said, I do not support such behavior. But if someone sincerely apologizes, and he did, I can’t help but forgive them.

I understand your feelings, though, and if he has used your own admissions of weakness in the face of addiction against you (which you KNOW I understand the gravity of) without demonstrating similar remorse afterward, then I think your reaction is perfectly reasonable and even justified.

I must say, though, I can’t help but note the irony of this little episode of Days of Our Lives in the context of this thread:

  1. Raj committed a socially unacceptable sin.
  2. He was quickly scolded by the community, his actions were decried, and he was even ostracized (ignored).
  3. He reflected upon those actions, repented, apologized, and, hopefully, mended his ways, at least for now.

If that’s not the shame/humility/social propriety regulating mechanism at work then I don’t know what is. (^_^)b