Just move on to Madcow or 5/3/1
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
You are doing way too much conditioning. Double progression like 5 x 5, where you add weight until you miss reps and then try to get your reps back to 5 x 5 in my opinion works IF you have complete days off in your training.
Your deadlift is intermediate level. Your press is probably intermediate too. Your squat and bench are both in the middle of the beginner strength level. That means to ME that you should use the most basic adjustment possible to try to bring those lifts up continually.
One method is to take 5 x 5 and simply use you current (completed 5 x 5) weight and go to 5 x 3. This should ride you up to about 190 x 5 x 3. When you can’t get 5 x 3 then take the best weight you completed and switch to 5 x 2. That should bring you up to at least 210 x 5 x 2. At whatever weight you last get at 5 x 2, drop 20% and start back at 5 x 5. Repeat 5 x 5, 5 x 3, 5 x 2.
Twice a week bench pressing should help if you are not overworked.
But the second workout either back off 15 pounds or do 5 x 3, 3 x 5 or 4 x 4 instead
[/quote]
Thanks for the advice. I’ll try the 5 x 5 → 5 x 3 → 5 x 2 and see if I can progress that way. If not I’ll probably end up jumping to 5/3/1.
Ironically, 20% of 210 takes me to 168lbs (or 67 1/2) for the next round of 5 x 5, which is 2 1/2 pounds lighter than I can do now. It will be interesting to see if my second bunch of 5 x 5 lets me go farther than 172 1/2 before failing…
–Me
[quote]kravi wrote:
[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
So, let me get this straight. On Day 2 you are doing military press and incline DB press, then the next day, you are doing CGBP and skull crushers, and then the next day, being Day 3 you are trying 5x5 on bench? Do you not see a problem with that?[/quote]
I perhaps should have labeled them Day A, and Day B. Just to make sure I’m not confusing y’all. I always leave a day between full body workouts.
Monday == Day 1
Tuesday == HIIT
Wednesday == Day 2
Thursday == HIIT + arms
Friday == Day 3
–Me[/quote]
For some reason you seem to think training arms has no impact on pressing strength a day or two after…EVEN when your arms day includes close-grip press! There’s a broken switch here, and until you repair it and listen to what literally everyone is trying to say in this thread, you will not break this plateau.
Restrict ALL your pressing (bench press, overhead, close-grip,…anything that involves you using upperbody to PUSH weight in any manner AWAY from your torso) to TWO days and see where that gets you.
[quote]kravi wrote:
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
You are doing way too much conditioning. Double progression like 5 x 5, where you add weight until you miss reps and then try to get your reps back to 5 x 5 in my opinion works IF you have complete days off in your training.
Your deadlift is intermediate level. Your press is probably intermediate too. Your squat and bench are both in the middle of the beginner strength level. That means to ME that you should use the most basic adjustment possible to try to bring those lifts up continually.
One method is to take 5 x 5 and simply use you current (completed 5 x 5) weight and go to 5 x 3. This should ride you up to about 190 x 5 x 3. When you can’t get 5 x 3 then take the best weight you completed and switch to 5 x 2. That should bring you up to at least 210 x 5 x 2. At whatever weight you last get at 5 x 2, drop 20% and start back at 5 x 5. Repeat 5 x 5, 5 x 3, 5 x 2.
Twice a week bench pressing should help if you are not overworked.
But the second workout either back off 15 pounds or do 5 x 3, 3 x 5 or 4 x 4 instead
[/quote]
Thanks for the advice. I’ll try the 5 x 5 → 5 x 3 → 5 x 2 and see if I can progress that way. If not I’ll probably end up jumping to 5/3/1.
Ironically, 20% of 210 takes me to 168lbs (or 67 1/2) for the next round of 5 x 5, which is 2 1/2 pounds lighter than I can do now. It will be interesting to see if my second bunch of 5 x 5 lets me go farther than 172 1/2 before failing…
–Me[/quote]
I’ve been down this road before (on multiple occassions) and I bet you and I think a lot alike. When I sit down to design a program (basically just to pick accessory work for 5/3/1 or currently Juggernaut 2.0 at this point) I have to be very conscious of not programming to many movements, sets, reps, etc… I think of it as the bodybuilder mentality in a strength oriented world. Probably from years of reading Mens Health and other muscle mags. The question in my mind is always, “what body parts have I missed?” In the past the answer ultimately was zero, but resulted in 8-12 movements a session 4-5 days a week + conditioning. In short, too much.
I doubt you will progress until you adjust the deficiencies that have been mentioned by several posters. You press too often especially while simultaneously doing HIIT 3 days a week, squat & deads, and oly type lifts like the power clean & SGHP.
If you jump to 5/3/1 I hope you follow Jim’s less is more mantra because if you don’t the same exact thing is going to happen.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]kravi wrote:
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
You are doing way too much conditioning. Double progression like 5 x 5, where you add weight until you miss reps and then try to get your reps back to 5 x 5 in my opinion works IF you have complete days off in your training.
Your deadlift is intermediate level. Your press is probably intermediate too. Your squat and bench are both in the middle of the beginner strength level. That means to ME that you should use the most basic adjustment possible to try to bring those lifts up continually.
One method is to take 5 x 5 and simply use you current (completed 5 x 5) weight and go to 5 x 3. This should ride you up to about 190 x 5 x 3. When you can’t get 5 x 3 then take the best weight you completed and switch to 5 x 2. That should bring you up to at least 210 x 5 x 2. At whatever weight you last get at 5 x 2, drop 20% and start back at 5 x 5. Repeat 5 x 5, 5 x 3, 5 x 2.
Twice a week bench pressing should help if you are not overworked.
But the second workout either back off 15 pounds or do 5 x 3, 3 x 5 or 4 x 4 instead
[/quote]
Thanks for the advice. I’ll try the 5 x 5 → 5 x 3 → 5 x 2 and see if I can progress that way. If not I’ll probably end up jumping to 5/3/1.
Ironically, 20% of 210 takes me to 168lbs (or 67 1/2) for the next round of 5 x 5, which is 2 1/2 pounds lighter than I can do now. It will be interesting to see if my second bunch of 5 x 5 lets me go farther than 172 1/2 before failing…
–Me[/quote]
I’ve been down this road before (on multiple occassions) and I bet you and I think a lot alike. When I sit down to design a program (basically just to pick accessory work for 5/3/1 or currently Juggernaut 2.0 at this point) I have to be very conscious of not programming to many movements, sets, reps, etc… I think of it as the bodybuilder mentality in a strength oriented world. Probably from years of reading Mens Health and other muscle mags. The question in my mind is always, “what body parts have I missed?” In the past the answer ultimately was zero, but resulted in 8-12 movements a session 4-5 days a week + conditioning. In short, too much.
I doubt you will progress until you adjust the deficiencies that have been mentioned by several posters. You press too often especially while simultaneously doing HIIT 3 days a week, squat & deads, and oly type lifts like the power clean & SGHP.
If you jump to 5/3/1 I hope you follow Jim’s less is more mantra because if you don’t the same exact thing is going to happen. [/quote]
That is fair criticism. But for the record, I only do HIIT 2 x a week 
I do a lot of presses, it is true, but that is because I am limited to barbells and dumbbells as I workout from home. I have no machines.
I guess in my head, I figured that lifting heavy 2 x a week (full body, one exercise per bodypart), plus another day of power based oly lifts (for the most part) was not too bad. It was just a 3 x a week full body sessions, with a couple of days of HIIT (and arms thrown in, granted).
Maybe I do need to rethink it. But in regards to my bench (which is the only thing I have consistent problems), I just get stuck at ~170lbs. When I started lifting doing Starting Strength, I followed the program to a T, and still got stuck at 170lbs. Then later with a split, same thing, then now with a 3 x a week full body program, I’m still getting stuck at 170.
Anyway, cheers and thanks for the feedback, and apologies for my stubbornness!
–Me
[quote]kravi wrote:
Maybe I do need to rethink it. But in regards to my bench (which is the only thing I have consistent problems), I just get stuck at ~170lbs. When I started lifting doing Starting Strength, I followed the program to a T, and still got stuck at 170lbs. Then later with a split, same thing, then now with a 3 x a week full body program, I’m still getting stuck at 170.
–Me[/quote]
Bench is the only movement you continually get stuck on and it’s the one area (pressing) you are overworking (in both your current and prior split). I don’t think that’s coincidence?
I’m a home gym owner as well. Barbells and DBs are a great ways to get bigger and stronger no doubt. You can definitely overdue it with those 2 implements though.
[quote]kravi wrote:
Thanks for the advice. I’ll try the 5 x 5 → 5 x 3 → 5 x 2 and see if I can progress that way. If not I’ll probably end up jumping to 5/3/1.
Ironically, 20% of 210 takes me to 168lbs (or 67 1/2) for the next round of 5 x 5, which is 2 1/2 pounds lighter than I can do now. It will be interesting to see if my second bunch of 5 x 5 lets me go farther than 172 1/2 before failing…
–Me[/quote]
I miss counted by the way. If you can get 170 x 5 x 5, you should at least be able to go up to 180 x 5 x 3 and 190 x 5 x 2. At that point you should be able to start up again with about a 20 pound drop to 170, but you may be able to bankc 5 x 3 at 185 or 190, and 5 x 2 at 200+. I would still go back to 165 or 170 for 5 x 5.
In my opinion, this is the 1st step between going from 5 x 5 to 5-3-1. The second step is to do 5 x 5 at your current work weight 170, then 5 x 3 at 180 then 5 x 2 at 190, THEN go back to 5 x 5 at 175, 5 x 3 at 185, 5 x 2 at 195 and repeat the pattern. This pattern accomplishes what 5-3-1 does more or less, but with more volume (you stay at 5 sets).
So, for the record,
- 5 x 5 adding weight
- 5 x 5 double progression, (adding weight, losing reps and building back to 5 x 5)
- 5 x 5->5 x 3->5 x 2->reset riding each rep level as long as possible
- 5 x 5; 5 x 3 (+5% of max); 5 x 2 (+5% more); return and add 5 pounds
Personally I stalled at 5 x 5 when my max was only around 210 which is exactly where you are now, but I was later able to ride 5 x 3 and 3 x 5 up to 350+ over a period of time without anything fancy. (not calling 5-3-1 fancy, but I prefer it with multiple top sets, or 5% jumps within a given workout). But if you start doing fancy stuff OR going too much instinctively you will be benching 170 x 5 x 5 x 5 years.
Why is 5x5 the magic set/rep combo? What’s wrong with trying 170 for 5x6 or 180 for 3x3?
Ok, so I decided to take everyone’s advice and simplify. So I’m just switching to 5/3/1, 4 x a week. As per Wendler’s directions, I am including only two assistance exercises + the main lift. If y’all could take a look and let me know what you think, I’d be obliged.
MONDAY
Military Press (5/3/1)
Klokov Press (5 x 10)
Chin/Pull/Whatever ups (5 sets)
TUESDAY
Deadlift (5/3/1)
SGHP (3 x 6)
Curls (5 x 10) (Hey, gotta keep the gunz)
WEDNESDAY
HIIT
THURSDAY
Bench (5/3/1)
DB Incline Bench (5 x 10)
DB Row (5 x 10)
FRIDAY
Power Cleans (3 x 6)
Squat (5/3/1)
Skull Crushers (5 x 10)
SATURDAY
HIIT
SUNDAY
rest
This sound like it is ok? Feedback appreciated.
–Me
Doesn’t look too bad. Keep us posted on how it goes. Personally, if I were using these exercises, I’d flip flop DB Rows and Skull Crushers.
Your strict military press is 147.5 x 5 and your bench keeps stalling at 170 x 5? Something seems off to me about that, more than just having a little too much tricep work volume.
How is your bench press form? How wide is your grip? Is your back tight against the bench, feet pushing the floor, traps shrugged, elbows tucked? Google Dave Tate how to bench press videos.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Doesn’t look too bad. Keep us posted on how it goes. Personally, if I were using these exercises, I’d flip flop DB Rows and Skull Crushers. [/quote]
I see why you said that, I just like doing some opposing movements together. I plan on doing the klokovs supersetted with the chins, and the db incline benches supersetted with the db rows. Unless I’m missing something?
Granted, doing db rows the day before I do some power cleans might effect the power cleans, but I can take the rough with the smooth (same thing with chins before SGHPs)…
–Me
[quote]craze9 wrote:
Your strict military press is 147.5 x 5 and your bench keeps stalling at 170 x 5? Something seems off to me about that, more than just having a little too much tricep work volume.
How is your bench press form? How wide is your grip? Is your back tight against the bench, feet pushing the floor, traps shrugged, elbows tucked? Google Dave Tate how to bench press videos.
[/quote]
I tend to be very shoulder and arm dominant for everything. I tried, after getting stuck at 170 the first (or maybe second) time, rebooting my bench. I double checked form, started light (at 130 or so), etc.
My grip is fairly narrow. Around 23 inches between index fingers. My arms are around a 45 degree angle the whole time. My upper back stays tight, my but hits the bench, and I can fit a fist easily into the arch in my back. I stay very tight, and I do bench through the legs.
I just suck at benching, but I’m pretty sure Wendler can help me with that!
–Me
[quote]kravi wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Doesn’t look too bad. Keep us posted on how it goes. Personally, if I were using these exercises, I’d flip flop DB Rows and Skull Crushers. [/quote]
I see why you said that, I just like doing some opposing movements together. I plan on doing the klokovs supersetted with the chins, and the db incline benches supersetted with the db rows. Unless I’m missing something?
Granted, doing db rows the day before I do some power cleans might effect the power cleans, but I can take the rough with the smooth (same thing with chins before SGHPs)…
–Me[/quote]
Ya that’s cool, it’s just a minor change anyway. Overall I think you’re on the right track as far as the spirit of 5/3/1 goes.
[quote]kravi wrote:
[quote]craze9 wrote:
Your strict military press is 147.5 x 5 and your bench keeps stalling at 170 x 5? Something seems off to me about that, more than just having a little too much tricep work volume.
How is your bench press form? How wide is your grip? Is your back tight against the bench, feet pushing the floor, traps shrugged, elbows tucked? Google Dave Tate how to bench press videos.
[/quote]
I tend to be very shoulder and arm dominant for everything. I tried, after getting stuck at 170 the first (or maybe second) time, rebooting my bench. I double checked form, started light (at 130 or so), etc.
My grip is fairly narrow. Around 23 inches between index fingers. My arms are around a 45 degree angle the whole time. My upper back stays tight, my but hits the bench, and I can fit a fist easily into the arch in my back. I stay very tight, and I do bench through the legs.
I just suck at benching, but I’m pretty sure Wendler can help me with that!
–Me[/quote]
23 inches is pretty narrow, almost a CGBP basically. I would try a wider grip.
[quote]craze9 wrote:
[quote]kravi wrote:
[quote]craze9 wrote:
Your strict military press is 147.5 x 5 and your bench keeps stalling at 170 x 5? Something seems off to me about that, more than just having a little too much tricep work volume.
How is your bench press form? How wide is your grip? Is your back tight against the bench, feet pushing the floor, traps shrugged, elbows tucked? Google Dave Tate how to bench press videos.
[/quote]
I tend to be very shoulder and arm dominant for everything. I tried, after getting stuck at 170 the first (or maybe second) time, rebooting my bench. I double checked form, started light (at 130 or so), etc.
My grip is fairly narrow. Around 23 inches between index fingers. My arms are around a 45 degree angle the whole time. My upper back stays tight, my but hits the bench, and I can fit a fist easily into the arch in my back. I stay very tight, and I do bench through the legs.
I just suck at benching, but I’m pretty sure Wendler can help me with that!
–Me[/quote]
23 inches is pretty narrow, almost a CGBP basically. I would try a wider grip.
[/quote]
Heh, I just measured. I have naturally narrow shoulders, apparently. 16, maybe 16.5 inches acromial processes. So call it 24 inches. I do 23. Not that different
–Me
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Ya that’s cool, it’s just a minor change anyway. Overall I think you’re on the right track as far as the spirit of 5/3/1 goes. [/quote]
So I just finished my first 531 workout. It was… underwhelming.
I warmed up with some jump roping. 5 sets of 3 minutes of jump rope. These are not hard, just a standard mix of types, enough to get the blood flowing but not enough to tire me.
Now, intellectually, I know that I am starting 531 based on 0.9 of my 1 RM, but still… The first 2 5 rep sets felt like warmups, and on the final set I finished 9 with good form. I probably could have squeezed out another, but it woulda been wobbly and all over the place.
The 5 x 10 klokov presses shredded my shoulders (in a goog way) - it was a lot more volume than I’m used to. Instead of dedicated chins (which I suck at), I just did a few between each set of the military press and the klokovs. Got 9 mini-sets in.
And then I was done. And feeling like I was just getting started. It is hard, when you are used to doing 4 movements with maximum intensity to not. Does that make sense?
I felt like I was done before I even started to exercise.
So I threw in some farmer’s walks, and did 3 rounds of boxing (I have a heavy bag - not my wife; she’s svelt and lovely - at home). And then some ab wheel stuff.
I wanted to do even more, but I somehow managed to restrain myself. I reckon as I progress it will get harder, but right now I feel like I’m on weight lifting methadone.
–Me
[quote]kravi wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Ya that’s cool, it’s just a minor change anyway. Overall I think you’re on the right track as far as the spirit of 5/3/1 goes. [/quote]
So I just finished my first 531 workout. It was… underwhelming.
I warmed up with some jump roping. 5 sets of 3 minutes of jump rope. These are not hard, just a standard mix of types, enough to get the blood flowing but not enough to tire me.
Now, intellectually, I know that I am starting 531 based on 0.9 of my 1 RM, but still… The first 2 5 rep sets felt like warmups, and on the final set I finished 9 with good form. I probably could have squeezed out another, but it woulda been wobbly and all over the place.
The 5 x 10 klokov presses shredded my shoulders (in a goog way) - it was a lot more volume than I’m used to. Instead of dedicated chins (which I suck at), I just did a few between each set of the military press and the klokovs. Got 9 mini-sets in.
And then I was done. And feeling like I was just getting started. It is hard, when you are used to doing 4 movements with maximum intensity to not. Does that make sense?
I felt like I was done before I even started to exercise.
So I threw in some farmer’s walks, and did 3 rounds of boxing (I have a heavy bag - not my wife; she’s svelt and lovely - at home). And then some ab wheel stuff.
I wanted to do even more, but I somehow managed to restrain myself. I reckon as I progress it will get harder, but right now I feel like I’m on weight lifting methadone.
–Me[/quote]
9 reps is perfect for your first cycle of 5/3/1. You did a good job with your TM. It’s a process and you have to give it time to work. Believe me, you’ll hit a hard 5 in short order. Jim recommends increasing your TM 5 cycles in a row and then back down to your 2nd cycle TM and moving forward from there (5 steps forward 3 steps back) to keep the gains coming. He advocates slow and steady progress over months and years. It’s a big philosophy change, I completely understand where you’re coming from.
Be careful not to over work yourself because you feel underwhelmed. That’s part of the process and for you particularly it should help with the bench plateau.
You are going to get stronger when you leave the gym feeling like you want to do more. Adding extra work is a “great” way to use up the resources that were going to make you stronger.
Now Jim supposedly did write in earlier programs to use 5% jumps on your 3 sets rather than 10%, so you would do something like 75% 80% and 85% for your 3 sets of 5 (80, 85 and 90 for 3s and 85, 90, 95 for 2s all percentages of the 90% training max) That works a lot better for me. But I think you should finish a complete cycle before you change anything.
And yea, 9 on your top 5 set is fine. I think people generally hit 8-10 on 5s day, 6-8 on 3s and 4-5 on 2s. I think he recommends stopping at 10, 8 and 5.