Well, as I stated earlier, I enjoyed Serrano’s lecture and style of lecturing. I think Udo cannot be touched on fats, even though Sears and Serrano disagree on some points, but feel that Udo was stepping outside his area of expertise when getting on the subject of protein. But then again, maybe not. There was one incident in Berardi’s lecture that caught me. He was talking about some casein study and casein superiority and some guy in the audience called him on it (obviously an expert in whey protein research, by the way he was talking) and talked about the 14 out of 15 studies that showed whey’s superority or something like that. Berardi just kinda stood there and said thanks for bringing that up or something similar. Berardi’s a cool guy though. Very approachable. But that guy just abuses the word ‘ultimately’. haha.
Serrano wasn’t really rude. He was just objecting to what Udo was saying. Udo actually said that whey was responsible for the onset of juvenille diabetes. Sereano countered what he said and they both quoted studies. Udo basically ignored or didn’t think Serano’s study was of merit(the one Serano was quoting not one he might have done). There was however a bit of a communication problem between the two. As I think Udo misinterpreted Serano because of his accent. I thought Serano sort of agreed with Udo in the end. At least partially. He left a fair time after the argument. He wasn’t ko’ed. But Udo did quite a good presentation. Me sleepy. 
It would just be some people that have this sensitivity. I am like Free Ex in that I have no lactose intolerance whatsoever but a while back I got a food tolerance test done and it showed a mild intolerance to both whey and casein. I still consume them both in small amounts anyway but truthfully I do notice a difference in leanness when I use meat sources as my only source of protein.
Some food for thought. I developed lactose intolerance over the years. I never was until about 2 years ago. Now if I drink milk, even 8 to 16 oz. worth I have gastrointestinal problems all day long. However, I have no trouble consuming Biotest’s Advanced Protein. In addition, adding a high quality protein blend to my diet has helped me add a lot of weight and it’s not fat. There is too much real world experience out there on whey to say it leads to fat gain. Granted, there will be individuals with adverse reactions but that is true with just about everything.
As far as training is concerned i think everything has been said and done.Nutrition has really come alive in the last couple years, but people,theres a lot of research at our finger prints,just because some popular coach or Dr/nutritionist brings something up,doesnt mean he invented it,or is his idea.As an example, Dr.Hatfield and Colgan brought up BCAA’s in the 80’s,nobody touched them, then Poliquin-Serranno_diPasquale mention it and everyone is on the bandwagan.Im starting to think theres going to a slowdown in the sports nutrition field.Besides,theres so much old research that people dont know exist.Another thing people have to remember is that coaches have money to,so they cant constantly swicth ideas around on a monthly basis or they would start to contradict themselves.For instance, Scott Abel prefers higher protein/higher carb/lower fat diets,Dr.Sears prefers isocaloric diets, DiPasquale likes lower carb/higher fat intakes.3 high caliber coaches with 3 different approaches.Whos right?They all are.They all acheive a high level of success with there clients or they wouldnt be where they are.So basically keep an open mind, experiment,interact with people,research studies(theres alot of stuff hidden in dusty library books)and most of all,have fun learning.Dont tell people keto diets dont work when they do.Dont tell people isocaloric diets dont work when they do.And dont tell people high carb diets suck because they suck for you.Every thing can work,but does it work for you?Same goes for drugs.I knew about Bromo 3 years ago when i found out about reading about Hydergine and i beleive Bill Roberts mentioned he knew about Bromo to.Maybe what we need to do is this.Instead of spending 2o some whos at symposium where every ones talking shit and trying to prove who knows who,maybe we should get the same amount of people,hog a medical library all day and see what we come up with.Thats my dream symposium.
It’s midnight and raining here in Toronto. I wish Patricia was here too. Without ko. (Just kidding, just kidding, I always get goofy on less than four hours sleep and a couple of beers. There’s like this beer to sleep ratio thingie…nevermind.)
SWIS is awesome this year, as expected. Lots of good stuff to report. I’ll try to finish my Part I of the report by this Friday. Lots of pics coming too. Berardi will be doing Part II of the SWIS report. You know, there’s something very cool about watching Lee Haney talk while sitting beside of Bill Pearl. These were the real pro bodybuuilders.
WSTRAINER and Nkeago - Have I run into you guys yet? Sorry, I talked to so many people and I only remember most by their forum names. If not, catch me before noon on Sunday (if you read this in time) and say howdy. I’ve given away all my Grow! bars already though, so no soup for you!
I’m at an internet cafe now, just had dinner with the guy who wrote “Getting Schooled Westside Style” for us and a few T-mag readers. It’s cool. We just gather up a bunch of readers after the seminars and hit the town. Nice to hang out with readers in the real world. Tate, King, Berardi, Lonnie Lowry and a few other T-mag guys are here. I’m not watching a lot of their presentations because I wanted T-mag readers to hear something new. Tate did an awesome job I hear but I figured most readers would already know about his training so I hit another presentation instead. Berardi and I are splitting them up pretty well. Should get two solid reports from it.
That’s it for this year. I probably won’t check back in on the forum until I’m back in the States. I’m going to go find some loud music and lose my hearing.
Intolerance is a real sneaky thing. One thing that is almost essential to not developing a problem with a food is to rotate it over a four day cycle. For example, day one - egg protein/eggs/chicken, day two - whey, casein, or milk protein (if tolerated at all)/beef/lamb, day three - soy protein/tofu/legumes, day four - rice protein/fish/shellfish and then back to day one again.
Some people claim they’ve been eating the same thing day after day for years and don’t have any ill symptoms. Dairy, beef, corn (sweetners included), chicken, wheat and eggs are some examples of overeaten foods in our society. If you want to test yourself for sensitivity, stop eating the questionable food for at least 6 days, then eat it again. If you develop ANY symptoms at all (headache, fatigue, irritability, brain fog, etc.) you have developed a problem with it. All the allergy books I read estimate that as many as 80-90 percent of people have some sort of food sensitivity.
Yes Chris we talked about 2-3 times I think. You had grow bars and I didn’t get any…you bastard!!! I’ll email you so you’ll know who I was. Heck you’ll probably get the email before you see this.
Chris: well, if you were the one buying the rounds, then, I wish I was there, too! hee hee
But it would be kinda cool to read some reports in T-Mag from some of the forum people who attended. You know, to get some insight from someone who is not a regular T-Mag contributor. Just a thought.
Does anyone know any of the references Dr Erasmus made regarding whey protein causing fat accumulation? It seems a little suspect to me based on the fact that diets high in dairy have been shown to result in more fat loss than diets lower in dairy. I am aware that this could also be due to the casein component but Dr. Michael Zemel at the University of Tennessee (who has done much of the research) hypothesizes that the weight loss may be due to the whey component because whey has natural peptides that are inhibitors of the angiotensin converting enzyme, which increases levels of angiotensin II, a highly lipogenic hormone. Dr. Zemel has mostly focused on the effects of calcium on weight loss but has found that an equivalent amount of calcium compared to calcium in dairy results in less weight loss than the dairy diet. Hence, the hypothesis that it may be due to the protein component.
Calories in vs out. Whey does not “make people fat.” That is, if you have a clue…
Calories in vs calories out makes no sense if your talking about fat loss.Theres more than one variable that controls weight loss like partitioning of calories, hormones, enzymes, macro ratios, training, etc.You say calories in vs calories out (Scott able said the same thing at Swis but thats a topic thats not debatable with me)but you offer no other specifics.theres alot of people i consult and believe me whey protein goes right out the window.Why dont you tell us your calorie theory and see if we can make sense out of this.
Ive seen those milk studies and i dont buy it.I have never seen anyone get ripped on dairy products, including some bodybuilders i know who take atleast 10 different drugs at any time of year (including ACE inhibitors).Milk contains toxins, estrogens, is high in carbs in fat (what calories is the body going to decide to burn when it ingests milk, fat or carbs?)etc.As for whey, Serranno looked like a fat peice of shit to me, and judging by the way he sticks up for whey protein, he probably takes in alot.
In a recent study in the Annals of Nutrition and Metabolism, they compared the effects of a moderate diet, high-protein diet and resistance training, using two different protein supplements, or the diet alone on body compositional changes in overweight police officers (1). It was a randomized 12-week study. One group was placed on a hypocaloric diet alone (80% of maintenance). A second group was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. They found no difference in total weight loss between groups (about 5.5 lbs. for all groups). Mean percent body fat with diet alone decreased from 27 to about 25% at 12 weeks. With diet, exercise and casein the decrease was from 26 to about 18%, and with diet, exercise and whey protein the decrease was from 27 to about 23%. So the mean fat loss was 2.5 (no protein supplement), 7.0 (casein supplement) and 4.2 kg (whey supplement) in the three groups. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of about 4 kg in the casein group and 2 kg in the whey group. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59% for casein versus 29% for whey, a statistically significant difference.
Taken from an old article at think muscle, and theres more where this came from, casein is better than whey.
This calorie in vs calorie out stuff people are taught in school would also suggest a calorie is a calorie which we (most)know is not true.
Yes there are variables but it comes down to Thermodynamics buring more than you take in through diet, exercise, and TE of food. BETTER?! Put it this way take 2 people with the exact same diet and gentics only one has 3 meals with whey and the other one deosn’t. Will the Whey guy get fatter PROBABLY NOT! This is why I and many other people try to never come here anymore-stupid posts and stupid people over analizing everything.
TEF can increase calorie expenditure from 5 to 15% on average, a whole 10% differece.Tell me, how to calculate your TEF for lean pepole, obese people, people with poor digestion regardless of %of bodyfat.I dont know what experience you have with helping people lose weight, but im open to ideas, so if you have some type of formula for weight loss that includes something about TEF, meal frequency and calorie in vs calorie out stuff i sure would like hear your information and the type of results you have been able to achieve on yourself and others.
People that have a passion for something analyze everthing.Do I trust other coaches, dietititions, doctors, drug experts and so on when it comes to my field, not really, and if they do end up telling me some thing so state of the art or fresh, i can always research things on my own.So yes i will analyze ideas, research abstracts and so on if i believe it will make me more knowlegable about my field, because i have that passion that is so lacking in this industry.Instead of exchanging information , i find people in our field are never open to new ideas(know it alls)and are always ready for an argument.I found this out long time ago.So if you think whey protein works great for you, thats great and i wont tell you otherwise, but in my practice i have not found it good for anything (unless mixed with casien, but thats not what this thread is about).So people will always have different theories and formulas for achieving success, and thats what discussions are for.As you can see from the title of this post, “Serranno is rude”, thats what i was trying to get at.You cant have the attitude that im right and you wrong without hearing the other person out.Put yourself in the other persons seat, take a view, does it make sense, if so,great, if not, you cant tell the other guy his theorie doesnt work, because if it didnt he would be out of business.I have argued with many of your top coaches and nutritionist, and believe me, most are not open to discussions.The only discussions there interested in is the products they sell (which is usually whey protein), as if you were at SWIS this year, Serrano and DiPasquale were pushing there products instead of giving cutting edge advice.That why i dont trust no one.I allocate a few hour a week in a medical library and try things out on my clients, thats how i base my conclusions.
I am sorry I got kind of snappy. I just get sick of over-analization. There is no 100% right or wrong way. As you said their are millions of variables. Do more things right than wrong and you will most likely get bigger or leaner. I personally do not us pure whey. I too use a Whey/Casien mix or mixes in most cases. What I am really saying is if you are low on your mix and you have to have a P+F meal with just whey you do not need to think: “Gee, maybe I should not eat this meal it will make me fat.” It may digest faster but the protein will do much more good than harm. In fact Bill Roberts and I were once speaking and he said If dieting and all one had was whey you could just drink it every 1.5-2 hours if you had nothing elese and be fine. He and I never once thought: “In a dieting phase using Whey will make sombody fat.” It may digest too fast and cause more insulin responce but the idea that on a retricted calorie diet that whey will caus fat gain is well ridiculous. (Also is the whey taken with fat or fiber? Because that will lower the insulin responce GREATLY) The fact is it does in the end come down to the laws of Thermodynamics. The fat loss may be slower and I say MAY be but I doubt it. If you go to Africa and give these starving kids Whey protien shakes I am guessing they add LBM NOT Fat. Is straight whey the best choice? Probably not WILL TAKING SAY 2 SHAKES PER DAY WITH WHEY PROTEIN “MAKE SOMEONE FAT?” NO WHEY!
I consume 200 grams of protein daily, 180 grams of that intake is from whey. I am not fat. Most of the lifters I know who use protein supplements use whey, not one of them has complained that it “makes them fat”. To make a blanket statement that “whey makes people fat” is, simply put, wrong.