Serge Nubret Pump Training

Training
421

It depends what exercise, squats usually around 45 secs, I try to lift normally but don’t really lockout. Bench seems to be from 30 -45 secs. I only increased weight when I completed the all the sets with that weight in the lowest allocated rest time. So I didn’t increase weight too much, I find most workouts fairly easy you know, except for quads is fairly difficult, aerobically and the burn you get, maybe I push myself too far on these it’s hard to gage.

And yes 6 days lifting weights is new to me, I’m used to lifting a lot heavier, 4 days a week with some cardio. Thing is I didn’t notice any overtraining effects till yesterday, it kinda just hit me.

422

My crystal ball is a bit murky, i work faster so if you try to slow the eccentric maybe ABC off would allow for recovery. I asked about tempo from the start and was answered normal. I was used to eccentric 4 to 12 seconds each reps. So i switched to control wich is about 1 sec. Basically i do 12 reps. in about 24 sec. obviously some exercises a bit more than others like last set somewhat longer.

Not locking(except like legs ext.) is fine. Input from others might be more helpfull. I trust that volume/accumulated fatigue works on our side so it is the fisrt time i do sets in so little time. My bet is you are probably just a bit away from your sweet spot and the repetitions added up.

Good luck !
PS. I just tought, maybe stress from life might have slowed your recovery.

423

[quote]Bradley Joe Kelly wrote:

[quote]zenontheterrible wrote:
Hey all.

I wrote a longish post about my experience on this program, lessons learned, etc… that unfortunatly got lost to the interwebs.

For now i will say i made some nice progress in some areas (arms specifically) but have to quit the program because of chronic naggin pain in shoulders generated by behind neck pressing and pulling (extremely light no less).

will get back later with my 3 week results. (i know 3 weeks is nothing to judge a program on but my shoulders just can’t take it anymore). [/quote]

Thank you for sharing your experience.

I am sorry to hear about your shoulder issues, however at least you discovered a new approach to arm training that works for you. If a exercise like BTNSP causes you pain immediately adapt it fit you , by either modifying the range of motion , grip or just swapping it for presses in the front. We are trying to improve our body not cause damage.

On that note, I used to have a lot of shoulder pain but I just figured it came with the territory of benching 350 pounds and ignored it for a while. I was wrong, in the end all I had to do to alleviate the issue was strengthen my rotator cuffs( Poliquin has a excellent article on this). Since I took the time to get them up to par , my shoulders have never had a hint of pain again.

BTNSP also places a lot of stress on the rotator cuff( it involves more external rotation) and if they are weaker then they should be compared tothe surrounding muscles you are setting yourself up for pain. [/quote]

I suspected BTN pulldowns in my case, but even after improving the form, and then removing them, the issues persisted. I now think the problem is actually caused by wide benching. I know going narrower was recommended against, because it would involve the triceps and delts too much. I’m not sure what to do. Help, please.

424

[quote]knokkelezoute73 wrote:

[quote]Bradley Joe Kelly wrote:

[quote]zenontheterrible wrote:
Hey all.

I wrote a longish post about my experience on this program, lessons learned, etc… that unfortunatly got lost to the interwebs.

For now i will say i made some nice progress in some areas (arms specifically) but have to quit the program because of chronic naggin pain in shoulders generated by behind neck pressing and pulling (extremely light no less).

will get back later with my 3 week results. (i know 3 weeks is nothing to judge a program on but my shoulders just can’t take it anymore). [/quote]

Thank you for sharing your experience.

I am sorry to hear about your shoulder issues, however at least you discovered a new approach to arm training that works for you. If a exercise like BTNSP causes you pain immediately adapt it fit you , by either modifying the range of motion , grip or just swapping it for presses in the front. We are trying to improve our body not cause damage.

On that note, I used to have a lot of shoulder pain but I just figured it came with the territory of benching 350 pounds and ignored it for a while. I was wrong, in the end all I had to do to alleviate the issue was strengthen my rotator cuffs( Poliquin has a excellent article on this). Since I took the time to get them up to par , my shoulders have never had a hint of pain again.

BTNSP also places a lot of stress on the rotator cuff( it involves more external rotation) and if they are weaker then they should be compared tothe surrounding muscles you are setting yourself up for pain. [/quote]

I suspected BTN pulldowns in my case, but even after improving the form, and then removing them, the issues persisted. I now think the problem is actually caused by wide benching. I know going narrower was recommended against, because it would involve the triceps and delts too much. I’m not sure what to do. Help, please.
[/quote]

How tall are you(? You may be going too wide, some people cannot go collar to collar. Instead go just outside shoulder width, if the pain stops go a half inch wider and so on. Test the waters so to speak.

425

[quote]Bradley Joe Kelly wrote:

[quote]knokkelezoute73 wrote:

[quote]Bradley Joe Kelly wrote:

[quote]zenontheterrible wrote:
Hey all.

I wrote a longish post about my experience on this program, lessons learned, etc… that unfortunatly got lost to the interwebs.

For now i will say i made some nice progress in some areas (arms specifically) but have to quit the program because of chronic naggin pain in shoulders generated by behind neck pressing and pulling (extremely light no less).

will get back later with my 3 week results. (i know 3 weeks is nothing to judge a program on but my shoulders just can’t take it anymore). [/quote]

Thank you for sharing your experience.

I am sorry to hear about your shoulder issues, however at least you discovered a new approach to arm training that works for you. If a exercise like BTNSP causes you pain immediately adapt it fit you , by either modifying the range of motion , grip or just swapping it for presses in the front. We are trying to improve our body not cause damage.

On that note, I used to have a lot of shoulder pain but I just figured it came with the territory of benching 350 pounds and ignored it for a while. I was wrong, in the end all I had to do to alleviate the issue was strengthen my rotator cuffs( Poliquin has a excellent article on this). Since I took the time to get them up to par , my shoulders have never had a hint of pain again.

BTNSP also places a lot of stress on the rotator cuff( it involves more external rotation) and if they are weaker then they should be compared tothe surrounding muscles you are setting yourself up for pain. [/quote]

I suspected BTN pulldowns in my case, but even after improving the form, and then removing them, the issues persisted. I now think the problem is actually caused by wide benching. I know going narrower was recommended against, because it would involve the triceps and delts too much. I’m not sure what to do. Help, please.
[/quote]

How tall are you(? You may be going too wide , some people cannot go collar to collar. Instead go just outside shoulder width, if the pain stops go a half inch wider and so on. Test the waters so to speak. [/quote]

I’m 6 foot, and have long arms. Previously I had my pinkies on the rings and was OK. I’ll go back to this grip, I guess, and gradually increase as you suggest. Thanks a lot.

426

Shoulder issues, first i am no expert. I am just looking for solutions. After many months of problem/pain i tried rest, work around, more serious rest and yesterday evening i moved in rehab mode. Broomstick stretches might be helpfull it is way too early to tell(i just started them but you can search (i will add a link at the bottom). I do them using a scarff allmost as long as i am tall.
You can look for the post from olinerules87, about the fith from the top.
Good luck !

427

[quote]knokkelezoute73 wrote:

[quote]Bradley Joe Kelly wrote:

[quote]knokkelezoute73 wrote:

[quote]Bradley Joe Kelly wrote:

[quote]zenontheterrible wrote:
Hey all.

I wrote a longish post about my experience on this program, lessons learned, etc… that unfortunatly got lost to the interwebs.

For now i will say i made some nice progress in some areas (arms specifically) but have to quit the program because of chronic naggin pain in shoulders generated by behind neck pressing and pulling (extremely light no less).

will get back later with my 3 week results. (i know 3 weeks is nothing to judge a program on but my shoulders just can’t take it anymore). [/quote]

Thank you for sharing your experience.

I am sorry to hear about your shoulder issues, however at least you discovered a new approach to arm training that works for you. If a exercise like BTNSP causes you pain immediately adapt it fit you , by either modifying the range of motion , grip or just swapping it for presses in the front. We are trying to improve our body not cause damage.

On that note, I used to have a lot of shoulder pain but I just figured it came with the territory of benching 350 pounds and ignored it for a while. I was wrong, in the end all I had to do to alleviate the issue was strengthen my rotator cuffs( Poliquin has a excellent article on this). Since I took the time to get them up to par , my shoulders have never had a hint of pain again.

BTNSP also places a lot of stress on the rotator cuff( it involves more external rotation) and if they are weaker then they should be compared tothe surrounding muscles you are setting yourself up for pain. [/quote]

I suspected BTN pulldowns in my case, but even after improving the form, and then removing them, the issues persisted. I now think the problem is actually caused by wide benching. I know going narrower was recommended against, because it would involve the triceps and delts too much. I’m not sure what to do. Help, please.
[/quote]

How tall are you(? You may be going too wide , some people cannot go collar to collar. Instead go just outside shoulder width, if the pain stops go a half inch wider and so on. Test the waters so to speak. [/quote]

I’m 6 foot, and have long arms. Previously I had my pinkies on the rings and was OK. I’ll go back to this grip, I guess, and gradually increase as you suggest. Thanks a lot.
[/quote]

Do not forget rotator cuff work my friend , it did miracles for my shoulder pain.

428

[quote]Bradley Joe Kelly wrote:
Do not forget rotator cuff work my friend , it did miracles for my shoulder pain.[/quote]

Ha, yes, I have started doing that, as well as band pull-aparts, wall slides etc…thanks again!

429

Bradley thanks, i got 3 bands, i am doing 3 sets of 50 pull-aparts( at least 1 hour apart ) with same for broomstick, and some RC at the gym every other day 5 pounds for now.

430

Been trying this workout during this week but with less excersices (I know, I know). Seriously, I have never had a pump like this and the soreness I have in my legs and glutes is incredible.

I just had my second leg and chest session in this week and my hips and glutes felt like they had barbed wire attached to them lol. So far I’m loving this workout and I will probably add the rest of the excersices progressively.

431

Also, the “lightweights” are kicking my ass!!!

432

[quote]BHappy wrote:
Bradley thanks, i got 3 bands, i am doing 3 sets of 50 pull-aparts( at least 1 hour apart ) with same for broomstick, and some RC at the gym every other day 5 pounds for now.[/quote]

Anytime brother, good job taking the initiative to keep your shoulders in top condition

433

[quote]tunacake wrote:
Been trying this workout during this week but with less excersices (I know, I know). Seriously, I have never had a pump like this and the soreness I have in my legs and glutes is incredible.

I just had my second leg and chest session in this week and my hips and glutes felt like they had barbed wire attached to them lol. So far I’m loving this workout and I will probably add the rest of the excersices progressively.[/quote]

I am very happy you like it, it gives you something to remember/ fall back on your entire training career and works great.

Good luck in everything, and thanks for taking the time to reply.

434

[quote]BHappy wrote:
On the subject of lower reps/higher reps, yesterday i read a post from The Mighty Stu

"To OVERsimplify things, forgetting exercise ordering and rep performance variables (we can save that discussion for another thread -lol), you have the options creating muscle damage as described in most basic texts (sliding filament theory) AND you have the option of creating cumulative muscular fatigue and a hormonal effect.

Working with heavy weights, pushing for strength gains, performing proper repetitions, will create muscle damage through structural mechanisms (this is usually understood by even the most beginner level trainers).

Working with moderate weights, creating more of a pump, with shorter rest intervals, and allowing fatigue of muscles to build up over a larger volume of work (I’ve shifted to this approach myself in recent years to spare my joints a bit) will stimulate muscle growth through the stress of fatigue combined with the hormonal stimulus of an anabolic environment (growth hormone).

Ideally, a smart trainer will make use of both methods in their programming, but realizing that you don’t always need to add more weight is a huge step in continuing to make hypertrophy gains beyond a certain point.

S "

We can read his post from(october 13, 9:56)
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding/2011_updates?id=4327277&pageNo=43[/quote]

Glad to see someone appreciates my long and rambling posts -lol

S

435

Hey all,

so i’ve been sick the last few days (3) and not working out, and kind of just eating alot and laying around (haha yes i’m a baby when i’m sick) so anyways i finally got around to doing some measurements, and let me tell you … i do not even believe the results myself! I took most measurements 5 or more times to be sure! 3/8 to my upper arms 3/4 to my thigh, and 1/4 to forearms! and unfortunately 1/4" to my waist (I’ve been eating to gain weight.)

what i did was almost the program as written. I threw in some extra forearm and calf work at the end of every workout. other than that it was essentially the same.

The most astounding for me is the gains to the arms… the thighs have been this big before (bigger even) so i will attribute that to ‘muscle memory’ but my arms have never been bigger than 15 inches before (and are now 15 3/8) and the wrist same story. Based on these results i am going to try stick to some sort of modified version of this program, and milk it until it stops working.

My major concerns right now are, 1) the behind the neck press really hurt my inner shoulder (rotar cuff). 2) I can’t spend 2 hours a day in the gym - the gym needs to be something i look forward too, not dread.

So brad,

this is what i propose… tell me if it sucks.

Everyday - (at the end of each workout)
abs 4 sets each
wrist 8 sets
calf raise 6 sets

Mon - squats and quads

Squats 5/3/1
Box Squat 1x20
Leg press 6x12
leg ext 6x12

Tues - bench and chest

Bench 5/3/1
cg bench 1x20
incline dumbbell 6x12
Dumbbell fly 6x12
Dumbbell pullover 6x12

Wed - back

chins - 50 total (when i can do it in 4 sets or less i’ll add weight)
Kroc rows - 3 sets (2x12, 1xamap)
machine row - 8 sets x 12
barbell pullover - 6x12
Behind neck pulldown - 6x12 (very light)

Thurs - deadlift and hamstrings

Deadlift 5/3/1
Rom Dead 1x20
leg curl 6x12
back ext 4x12

Fri - shoulders and arms

oh press - 5/3/1
oh press 4x12
front raise - 6x12
shrugs - 6x12
Upright row - 4x12
Rear delt fly - 4x12

Bicep Cable - 6-8 sets
Triceps Pushdowns - 6-8 sets
Hammer curls - 6 sets
triceps dips - 6 sets

anyways that’s the general gist…
thinking of replacing 1x20 sets with some supramaximal holds or “isometric lockouts” as you wrote about in your newest article.

feedback appreciated.
thanks.

436

[quote]zenontheterrible wrote:
… i do not even believe the results myself! I took most measurements 5 or more times to be sure! 3/8 to my upper arms 3/4 to my thigh, and 1/4 to forearms! and unfortunately 1/4" to my waist (I’ve been eating to gain weight.)

what i did was almost the program as written. I threw in some extra forearm and calf work at the end of every workout. other than that it was essentially the same.

The most astounding for me is the gains to the arms… the thighs have been this big before (bigger even) so i will attribute that to ‘muscle memory’ but my arms have never been bigger than 15 inches before (and are now 15 3/8) and the wrist same story. Based on these results i am going to try stick to some sort of modified version of this program, and milk it until it stops working.

My major concerns right now are, 1) the behind the neck press really hurt my inner shoulder (rotar cuff). 2) I can’t spend 2 hours a day in the gym - the gym needs to be something i look forward too, not dread.

So brad,

this is what i propose…5/3/1[/quote]

Not Brad, but I’m confused.

You’ve found a routine that has given you tremendous gains over a period of only weeks, so you’re going to change it.

I’m a great believer in modifying routines to suit me. I know my own limitations ref exercise selection and the time which I can devote to workouts etc etc. However what you seem to be doing is taking a successful (for you) bodybuilding workout based on high reps, high volume, fast paced training, and “modifying” it to a kind of bastardisation of 5-3-1, which is a completely different concept, and with a dodgy shoulder to boot.

If your main interest is in strength, then yes, the new routine would be more appropriate, but if you are looking for size, why not truly modify the existing routine which has already been proven to be successful for you.

Workouts too long 1: Drop the calves/abs/forearms every workout. Do abs seperately in the morning, train calves as you would everything else, do forearms really need to be trained seperately if you’re doing arm curls etc which in themselves give a tremendous pump in the forearms.

Workouts too long 2: Reduce the number of exercises per muscle, reduce the number of ets per exercise, reduce the rest time between sets (accepting that the weight will have to be reduced). Try using two different workouts for each bodypart eg day 1: 5 exercises 6X12 for back, 2 exercises 8X12 for chest. Day 4: 2 execrises 8X12 for back, 5 exercises 6X12 for chest etc

workouts too long 3: Use a different split; 4 way, 5 way instead of 3 way.

Shoulders very sore because of Press Behind Neck: Drop the exercise and replace it with a different shoulder exercise that doesn’t hurt. There are a myriad of exercises, coupled with manipulation of grip, ROM etc will surely present something that works for you. Again common sense.

I guess what I’m saying is don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

If your main goal is strength ignore this and go with 5-3-1, if not then have a rethink.

all the best
gazz

437

[quote]zenontheterrible wrote:

  1. the behind the neck press really hurt my inner shoulder (rotar cuff). 2) I can’t spend 2 hours a day in the gym - the gym needs to be something i look forward too, not dread.
    thanks. [/quote]

Maybe use dumbbells? As for your new split, I think one of the big reasons Serge’s routine is so effective is that it has you hit each muscle group twice a week. I know he insisted on it in forum posts.

438

zenontheterrible,

about 22 years ago a man(sorry i forget his name) was giving a conference about
Begin
With
The
End
In
Mind
It would help you to make many decisions if that was clear in your mind plus you might get better suggestions from others offering to help you.

  • What about your 10 years plan ?
  • What about your 2 years plan ?
  • What time would you like to cut down(gym or training all together)?
    Other than that i would say try it. I think more than 1 reader would be interested in your results.
    All the best !
439

[quote]zenontheterrible wrote:
Hey all,

so i’ve been sick the last few days (3) and not working out, and kind of just eating alot and laying around (haha yes i’m a baby when i’m sick) so anyways i finally got around to doing some measurements, and let me tell you … i do not even believe the results myself! I took most measurements 5 or more times to be sure! 3/8 to my upper arms 3/4 to my thigh, and 1/4 to forearms! and unfortunately 1/4" to my waist (I’ve been eating to gain weight.)

what i did was almost the program as written. I threw in some extra forearm and calf work at the end of every workout. other than that it was essentially the same.

The most astounding for me is the gains to the arms… the thighs have been this big before (bigger even) so i will attribute that to ‘muscle memory’ but my arms have never been bigger than 15 inches before (and are now 15 3/8) and the wrist same story. Based on these results i am going to try stick to some sort of modified version of this program, and milk it until it stops working.

My major concerns right now are, 1) the behind the neck press really hurt my inner shoulder (rotar cuff). 2) I can’t spend 2 hours a day in the gym - the gym needs to be something i look forward too, not dread.

So brad,

this is what i propose… tell me if it sucks.

Everyday - (at the end of each workout)
abs 4 sets each
wrist 8 sets
calf raise 6 sets

Mon - squats and quads

Squats 5/3/1
Box Squat 1x20
Leg press 6x12
leg ext 6x12

Tues - bench and chest

Bench 5/3/1
cg bench 1x20
incline dumbbell 6x12
Dumbbell fly 6x12
Dumbbell pullover 6x12

Wed - back

chins - 50 total (when i can do it in 4 sets or less i’ll add weight)
Kroc rows - 3 sets (2x12, 1xamap)
machine row - 8 sets x 12
barbell pullover - 6x12
Behind neck pulldown - 6x12 (very light)

Thurs - deadlift and hamstrings

Deadlift 5/3/1
Rom Dead 1x20
leg curl 6x12
back ext 4x12

Fri - shoulders and arms

oh press - 5/3/1
oh press 4x12
front raise - 6x12
shrugs - 6x12
Upright row - 4x12
Rear delt fly - 4x12

Bicep Cable - 6-8 sets
Triceps Pushdowns - 6-8 sets
Hammer curls - 6 sets
triceps dips - 6 sets

anyways that’s the general gist…
thinking of replacing 1x20 sets with some supramaximal holds or “isometric lockouts” as you wrote about in your newest article.

feedback appreciated.
thanks. [/quote]

I am very happy you had great results , but changing the program how you listed would be a lot less effective because the training principles do everything they can to speed recovery so you can work the muscles twice a week. If you are only working them once a week anyway you would be better off with higher intensity training. Which may work for you or may not, I never really could profit from it and always fell back on higher volumes.

You could cut the sets to save on time, or do A B C off split or something similar.

440

Hi every one. This is my second week on the program. Here are my ramblings:

I love it. Very much, will probably be my “life style program” tweaking some things here and there and alternating with cycles of other methods. THANKS FOR THE DISCOVERY BRAD!!!

Modifications:
Less chest exercise (just 3,I feel 5 is just too much plus Im not a chest guy. Im a BACK guy plus back muscle need more exercise and variety) all with emphasis on upper chest.
More exercise variation. Grip, angle, unilateral etc.
Include compound, isolation and unilateral exercises.
No work for front delts. All go to rear and lateral. I have a unbalance for OH pressing for too long. Needo more lateral and rear.
Rotator cuff work
Some forearm, abs and calves work. (Will include neck too).

FORGET ABOUT LOADING
Volume, form and muscle mind connection RULES. Nail the volume, perfect the movement, master the exercise-kepp RPE low on the first 4-6 sets. OWN the weight before thinking of raising it.

TEMPO TUT
DON’T USE ECCENTRIC FOCUS TRAINING! This will kill your recuperation. Keep the tempo relatively fast say- 3-4 second per rep. This equal 36-48 tut. Multiply that for 8-6 sets and you have enough. This way you wont mess up with recovery.

Full ROM is better IMO
full ROM doesn’t necessarily equal less TUT. Just work on mind over muscle and contract.

Use the RIGHT weight
One that allow you to “feel the muscle” I notice that theres a weigth when I can literally feel all the movements and co contraction of the muscles involve. If I increase it, I still can do the movement but I lost the “feeling”- “Pose with weights”

RESULTS IN TWO WEEKS
.5 inch in arms and chest/back
.8 inchs on legs
waist remain the same :slight_smile:

In pictures clearly more chest definition and better shape (will post later after 2 weeks more).

NUTRITION
I think G Flux go great with this.

How are you guys doing?

Thanks everyone this is a great threat