Seattle Cop Punches Woman in the Face

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]JD430 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
What is realistic is an officer using their preceptive powers and enforcing the law where they feel it does the most good.

[/quote]

This is the opposite of the whole idea of blind justice. It is not the job of an officer to decide what is good for different people. Or who will be helped by issuing a ticket and who will be helped by not issuing one.[/quote]

Duce,

What you are proposing is impossible. There are not enough hours in a day or enough officers on the street to engage in what you are proposing. You are equating “blind justice” with “zero tolerance”. I am assuming here and correct me if I am wrong, but your intent is to essentially remove discretion from officers in how they do their job as an extension of your distrust of the profession. That is impossible but if some how it were to be tried, the unintended consequences would be horrific. In fact, some sneaky politicians have used that argument to justify traffic cameras that automatically record violators for red light infractions and speeding. You don’t want to go down that road.

Police discretion is deeply rooted in US law and allows for an examination of the circumstances at hand. Was I wrong for letting a girl go the other day who was speeding to get to the hospital because her grandmother wasn’t long for this world? A “blind justice” approach would have to say “yes”. This also includes the practice of targeting specific problem areas to dissuade or modify behavior(which, by the way, is the true purpose of criminal and motor vehicle law).

We’re starting to move away from the discussion at hand but fail to see where you are coming from with this.

[/quote]

Does speeding endanger lives? is there a law that makes it illegal? Does anything having to do with her grandmother make it safer or less illegal?

It’s shouldn’t be a cops job to judge, its a judges job. write the ticket, the the judge make those judgment calls.

102

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

Cops have very hard jobs and honestly don’t get that good of pay.

[/quote]

And so does the average Army grunt. So does an EMT.

If a cop can’t handle the stress that comes along with his job, much like the other occupations listed above, then they need to find different employment.

There is absolutely no reason, unless these two women were under the influence of drugs, that this situation should have escalated in the way that it did.

103

Those girls are idiots and got what they deserve. As a kid who has a father who was in a gang and in and out of prison, I’ve personally seen 3 cops handcuff and beat the shit out of my father in front of me and my sister when we were kids. I can say I have some pretty negative feelings towards cops and overly aggressive ones. Having said that, I would never put my hands on a cop. People get killed all the time trying to test cops.

There was an air force police officer who got shot like 3 times i think while unarmed by a city police officer at point blank range, and he wasn’t even aggressive towards the officer AT ALL. Kid lived, but the Police are some of the most dangerous people to try and mess with.

Now as much as I can’t stand cops I will say this.

They provide a vital function in our society. They mantain order and uphold the law. Being human there is a lot of profiling and descrimination that happens, but that is also necessary because I would not want a task force that patrolled and spent just as much time in beverly hills as they did in Compton.

The police also have to maintain a boundary of respect from the public. They rely on the publics fear/ respect of them in order to maintain their authority. The public greatly outnumbers the police force, therefor the cops cannot allow the public to think it’s okay to begin disrespecting and demeaning their position. That girl is lucky there was a crowd around her and there was only one cop. Had there been no one around, and there were multiple officers and she put her hands on one of them, things would have been ALOT worse.

104

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]trevor16 wrote:
There are a couple people here that seem to share the belief that police have to be respectful and polite to them no matter how they are behaving. It’s like the saying goes…police are here to save your ass, not kiss it. Nowhere in the job description does it say police are here to be polite and courteous to every single jackass they come across.

Your attitude goes a long way in determining how you are treated. You definitely don’t have to follow blindly and kiss ass, however being polite as you would with any other person will generally ensure the police officer shows you respect and treats you fairly.

And actually yes, we do have discretion with who we charge and who we don’t. For me, if someone is a good person, and does not have a record of victimizing others and is not a total asshole I will let them go. However if someone acts like an asshole, they are going to get treated like one.

So generally, how you get treated is all about how you act towards the police. Be polite (doesn’t mean you have to kiss ass) and you will be treated fairly, be rude and obnoxious and you will likely be treated in a similar fashion. Police are human…don’t expect them to act like robots. [/quote]

My point was that no matter hoe repectful your are to some police they show you the standard disrepect and there is ZERO recourse . You are wrong about always being treated fairly by the police . Some of them are so used to treating people in the manner that get’s the results they like , they forget they are dealing with people with feelings and a temper[/quote]

I didn’t mean to say being polite will ALWAYS mean you are treated well. There are not many rules that apply %100 of the time and like I said, for better or for worse, police are human. My point is, generally if you are polite you will be treated politely. This obviously doesn’t apply if you have just done something incredibly stupid like pulling a weapon, however for a routine matter, generally you will be treated well if you act responsibly. I would suggest that it is likely that if the women in the original post had stopped for the cop when he legally stopped them and acted like normal, well-adjusted human beings, this incident would never have happened.

105

[quote]trevor16 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]trevor16 wrote:
There are a couple people here that seem to share the belief that police have to be respectful and polite to them no matter how they are behaving. It’s like the saying goes…police are here to save your ass, not kiss it. Nowhere in the job description does it say police are here to be polite and courteous to every single jackass they come across.

Your attitude goes a long way in determining how you are treated. You definitely don’t have to follow blindly and kiss ass, however being polite as you would with any other person will generally ensure the police officer shows you respect and treats you fairly.

And actually yes, we do have discretion with who we charge and who we don’t. For me, if someone is a good person, and does not have a record of victimizing others and is not a total asshole I will let them go. However if someone acts like an asshole, they are going to get treated like one.

So generally, how you get treated is all about how you act towards the police. Be polite (doesn’t mean you have to kiss ass) and you will be treated fairly, be rude and obnoxious and you will likely be treated in a similar fashion. Police are human…don’t expect them to act like robots. [/quote]

My point was that no matter hoe repectful your are to some police they show you the standard disrepect and there is ZERO recourse . You are wrong about always being treated fairly by the police . Some of them are so used to treating people in the manner that get’s the results they like , they forget they are dealing with people with feelings and a temper[/quote]

I didn’t mean to say being polite will ALWAYS mean you are treated well. There are not many rules that apply %100 of the time and like I said, for better or for worse, police are human. My point is, generally if you are polite you will be treated politely. This obviously doesn’t apply if you have just done something incredibly stupid like pulling a weapon, however for a routine matter, generally you will be treated well if you act responsibly. I would suggest that it is likely that if the women in the original post had stopped for the cop when he legally stopped them and acted like normal, well-adjusted human beings, this incident would never have happened. [/quote]

I agree, but it is also VERY possible had that beenanother Cop this incident would not have happened either

106

[quote]trevor16 wrote:
There are a couple people here that seem to share the belief that police have to be respectful and polite to them no matter how they are behaving. [/quote]

No, I’d just prefer that a cop attempt to “defuse” the situation peacefully instead of punching someone in the face.

Do cops not carry mace or pepper spray? Could he have not used that or at least threatened to use it before resorting to brute force?

I just think he had a few options at his disposal that he could have used before resorting physical violence.

107

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]trevor16 wrote:
There are a couple people here that seem to share the belief that police have to be respectful and polite to them no matter how they are behaving. [/quote]

No, I’d just prefer that a cop attempt to “defuse” the situation peacefully instead of punching someone in the face.

Do cops not carry mace or pepper spray? Could he have not used that or at least threatened to use it before resorting to brute force?

I just think he had a few options at his disposal that he could have used before resorting physical violence.[/quote]

Of course the ideal situation is to defuse the situation verbally rather than resort to force, however there are a lot of people out there who are not willing to listen to reason. This female did not appear to be cooperating at all and as you can observe, verbal dialogue did not appear to be calming her down.

Police do carry what you refer to as pepper spray (Oleoresin Capsicum), however it is not to be used in close quarter situations as are observed in the video. There are numerous reasons why it is not a substance that you want to use on someone you are “hands on” with.

Also…on a somewhat related topic, based on experience I would gladly take several punches to the face than be OC sprayed.

108

Duce, you are clearly just being argumentative. Your “logic” makes no sense from a human perspective…and whether you like it or not, cops are human, too. We didn’t give up our humanity when we took on the job. The fact that you have never experienced compassion from an officer probably had a lot more to do with YOUR attitude than his.

Here’s what I’m seeing in this video. Cop stops woman for breaking a law. (Cops do that…it’s in the job description, FYI.) Woman tries to leave or ignore officer. Cop steps up the encounter to a detention, since she tries to leave. Woman and friend then start shoving and pulling away from officer, which is not legal, since she is being lawfully detained. Officer responds with force one level higher than he is being presented with, as trained. Perfectly legal.

Personally, would I have punched her? I doubt it. From watching the video, the officer needs practice in control tactics. However, a punch, on my department, would have been authorized in this circumstance.

Shoving an officer or putting your hands on one is assault. Assaults are responded to with force. Cops are not required to stand there and get shoved.

Ninety percent of you on here would respond the same way if you were shoved in that manner. But, because it’s a cop doing it, you want to scream excessive force.

There was nothing EXCESSIVE about it. It was one punch, followed by an attempt at a control tactic. The use of force by police officers is a commonly accepted practice, and has been held up by the Supreme Court. I know some of you don’t think that’s right, or fair, but it’s a fact of life.

And I don’t know which one of you thought pepper spray should have been used, but THAT would have been excessive.

That’s what kills me…some of you think you know the law, and yet you have no real clue.

109

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Duce, you are clearly just being argumentative. Your “logic” makes no sense from a human perspective…and whether you like it or not, cops are human, too. We didn’t give up our humanity when we took on the job.

[/quote]
You do (are supposed to) give up some rights. As an officer, you are a public servant. You cannot exercise rights like free speech. And you agree to be held to a higher standard. Much like the military, putting on that uniform changes the rules you have to play by.

And the fact that you are a cop probably has a lot more to do with YOUR attitude.

Iâ??ve never said anyone was wrong. I never said he shouldnâ??t have hit her. Iâ??ve said the woman shouldnâ??t have laid hands on him. Iâ??m catching all this flak because I think the officer being an ass (even in retaliation) probably attributed to the whole thing.

But think about this. You claim to only be human. If it is so grievously wrong to lay hands on a human. If that constitutes assault, then the officer commits the first assault in the video. How on earth does talking to someone about j-walking escalate into justifying assault? So, you have an officer that commits assault over (more than likely) a woman being a bitch, and another woman that commits assault over her friend being assaulted. Does the ladder really sound that much less reasonable to yall?

You guys act like touching a cop is the end of the world. But laying hands on a teenage woman for acting like an obnoxious teen is deserved? If itâ??s a huge deal one way it should be a huge deal the other way. They are both humans being subjected to the same action.

[quote]

Personally, would I have punched her? I doubt it. From watching the video, the officer needs practice in control tactics. However, a punch, on my department, would have been authorized in this circumstance.

Shoving an officer or putting your hands on one is assault. Assaults are responded to with force. Cops are not required to stand there and get shoved.

Ninety percent of you on here would respond the same way if you were shoved in that manner. But, because it’s a cop doing it, you want to scream excessive force.

There was nothing EXCESSIVE about it. It was one punch, followed by an attempt at a control tactic. The use of force by police officers is a commonly accepted practice, and has been held up by the Supreme Court. I know some of you don’t think that’s right, or fair, but it’s a fact of life.

And I don’t know which one of you thought pepper spray should have been used, but THAT would have been excessive.

That’s what kills me…some of you think you know the law, and yet you have no real clue. [/quote]

Iâ??ve never said anything about excessive. Iâ??ve even said in the situation he was more than justified. I just donâ??t see things going down that way without the cop being an ass. Iâ??m not saying heâ??s wrong for hitting her, I see the cop allowing the situation to go from j-walking to assault as a failure.

And by the way, if thatâ??s assault, Iâ??ve been assaulted multiple times by cops while being respectful and not breaking any law.

So, do I get to punch them in the face. Since you know, they are just human, like me.

110

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Duce, you are clearly just being argumentative. Your “logic” makes no sense from a human perspective…and whether you like it or not, cops are human, too. We didn’t give up our humanity when we took on the job.

[/quote]
You do (are supposed to) give up some rights. As an officer, you are a public servant. You cannot exercise rights like free speech. And you agree to be held to a higher standard. Much like the military, putting on that uniform changes the rules you have to play by.

And the fact that you are a cop probably has a lot more to do with YOUR attitude.

I�¢??ve never said anyone was wrong. I never said he shouldn�¢??t have hit her. I�¢??ve said the woman shouldn�¢??t have laid hands on him. I�¢??m catching all this flak because I think the officer being an ass (even in retaliation) probably attributed to the whole thing.

But think about this. You claim to only be human. If it is so grievously wrong to lay hands on a human. If that constitutes assault, then the officer commits the first assault in the video. How on earth does talking to someone about j-walking escalate into justifying assault? So, you have an officer that commits assault over (more than likely) a woman being a bitch, and another woman that commits assault over her friend being assaulted. Does the ladder really sound that much less reasonable to yall?

You guys act like touching a cop is the end of the world. But laying hands on a teenage woman for acting like an obnoxious teen is deserved? If it�¢??s a huge deal one way it should be a huge deal the other way. They are both humans being subjected to the same action.

Of all the statements you just made I think this is the most telling:

"I just don�¢??t see things going down that way without the cop being an ass. "

This shows that you have no idea what some people behave like and the situations police get put in. If a cop were to tell you some of the absurd things he or she has seen you wouldn’t believe it. This isn’t a bad thing, it probably means you are normal, have a normal life and associate with normal people. unfortunately there are people who are not like you and the people you associate with. These are the people that repeatedly come into contact with the police and show absolutely no common sense in their lives.

You assume that because YOU wouldn’t get into a situation like this unless you were being wronged by the police, that this is the case for everyone. unfortunately there are a lot of people who lack the ability to be reasonable and end up in ridiculous situations like this. As police, we see these people all the time, whereas normal people do not and therefore make assumptions based on their experience which is not applicable in the situation.

111

[quote]trevor16 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Duce, you are clearly just being argumentative. Your “logic” makes no sense from a human perspective…and whether you like it or not, cops are human, too. We didn’t give up our humanity when we took on the job.

[/quote]
You do (are supposed to) give up some rights. As an officer, you are a public servant. You cannot exercise rights like free speech. And you agree to be held to a higher standard. Much like the military, putting on that uniform changes the rules you have to play by.

And the fact that you are a cop probably has a lot more to do with YOUR attitude.

I�?�¢??ve never said anyone was wrong. I never said he shouldn�?�¢??t have hit her. I�?�¢??ve said the woman shouldn�?�¢??t have laid hands on him. I�?�¢??m catching all this flak because I think the officer being an ass (even in retaliation) probably attributed to the whole thing.

But think about this. You claim to only be human. If it is so grievously wrong to lay hands on a human. If that constitutes assault, then the officer commits the first assault in the video. How on earth does talking to someone about j-walking escalate into justifying assault? So, you have an officer that commits assault over (more than likely) a woman being a bitch, and another woman that commits assault over her friend being assaulted. Does the ladder really sound that much less reasonable to yall?

You guys act like touching a cop is the end of the world. But laying hands on a teenage woman for acting like an obnoxious teen is deserved? If it�?�¢??s a huge deal one way it should be a huge deal the other way. They are both humans being subjected to the same action.

Of all the statements you just made I think this is the most telling:

"I just don�?�¢??t see things going down that way without the cop being an ass. "

This shows that you have no idea what some people behave like and the situations police get put in. If a cop were to tell you some of the absurd things he or she has seen you wouldn’t believe it. This isn’t a bad thing, it probably means you are normal, have a normal life and associate with normal people. unfortunately there are people who are not like you and the people you associate with. These are the people that repeatedly come into contact with the police and show absolutely no common sense in their lives.

You assume that because YOU wouldn’t get into a situation like this unless you were being wronged by the police, that this is the case for everyone. unfortunately there are a lot of people who lack the ability to be reasonable and end up in ridiculous situations like this. As police, we see these people all the time, whereas normal people do not and therefore make assumptions based on their experience which is not applicable in the situation. [/quote]

I doubt you’d believe some of my stories about cops either, so I guess we’re even.

112

Duce,

your perspective on blind justice is an interesting one. It is fairly schizophrenic though to be arguing against a cop enforcing a jaywalking statute as chickenshit in one breath and then tell me I should have zero discretion and should enforce all laws maximally in another breath. I suspect that most of society would disagree with you and would want the police to make decisions on a human level, not act as automatons. The entire history of US jurisprudence in this area firmly establishes police discretion.

I also wanted to add something to what mapwhap said. What the girl in pink did goes beyond assaulting an officer…she actually attempts to effect the escape of someone who appeared to be under arrest as best as I could tell. That is serious business and the employment of a single “stunning strike” in that situation is kosher, even if there were other options.

Again, it should be noted that the crowd could have helped back that situation down. Instead they circle with cameras running, one appears to begin to make an aggressive move toward the cop but changes his mind and another looks to be holding a pistol. It seems we are getting the type of society that many subversives have been working toward for a long time.

113

[quote]JD430 wrote:
Duce,

your perspective on blind justice is an interesting one. It is fairly schizophrenic though to be arguing against a cop enforcing a jaywalking statute as chickenshit in one breath and then tell me I should have zero discretion and should enforce all laws maximally in another breath. I suspect that most of society would disagree with you and would want the police to make decisions on a human level, not act as automatons. The entire history of US jurisprudence in this area firmly establishes police discretion.

I also wanted to add something to what mapwhap said. What the girl in pink did goes beyond assaulting an officer…she actually attempts to effect the escape of someone who appeared to be under arrest as best as I could tell. That is serious business and the employment of a single “stunning strike” in that situation is kosher, even if there were other options.

Again, it should be noted that the crowd could have helped back that situation down. Instead they circle with cameras running, one appears to begin to make an aggressive move toward the cop but changes his mind and another looks to be holding a pistol. It seems we are getting the type of society that many subversives have been working toward for a long time. [/quote]

You’re misquoting my throughout your post. I said enforcement should be consistent. I didn’t say the maximum enforcement should always be the only way. If jay walking is really illegal, there should be an effort made for general enforcement. If it’s not illegal everywhere but then there is the exception where an officer decides it’s best, I have an issue.

Next, I’ve yet to say the strike was misappropriate. preach to someone else. I reiterated this falsehood over and over and over in my posts.

I agree with your last paragraph, I’m not sure if it was intended for me.

114

Only 1st paragraph meant for you actually.

115

Actually, Duce, I apologize, cos the first paragraph of my post was the only one directed at you. The rest was just general commentary directed to everyone else.

But, since I read your response, I’m going to point something out, although you apparently just refuse to accept this. The officer did not, as you claim, “commit the first assault”. Again, it goes back to the LAWFUL right to detain. Officers are allowed to prevent someone from leaving, whether it’s the most minor of offenses (i.e; jaywalking) or the most major of felonies (i.e; murder). Therefore, legally speaking, the officer did not commit an assault.

Further, whether a person thinks the law is valid or not, they DO NOT have a legal right to resist arrest, except in very narrow circumstances. This is not one of those circumstances.

I understand that you don’t think jaywalking is, or should be, illegal. However, in many (not all) cities, it is. Its enforcement may seem arbitrary to you, but it’s still against the law.

116

And one other thing…I said we didn’t give up our HUMANITY. I never said anything about not giving up our rights. Of course we do…that’s part of the gig, as you pointed out.

Many police officers exhibit plenty of compassion and kindness to everyone around them…the good ones realize that it’s a better way of policing. Apparently, you haven’t experienced it.

Some don’t display this…and it’s to their detriment. Unfortunately, learning to blend compassion with duty is something you only learn through experience, and that takes time.

Or, as I believe Tony Blauer says, “Experience is something you gain shortly after you needed it.”

118

Lovin the input of some actual officers. There are fuck heads in every line of work, and policing is not immune to this. Having said that, I dont feel like there was any excessive use of force, and i dont think the officer in question precipitated the controntation anymore then the girls did.

What right do they have to walk away from an officer? And then try to break free when he detains them? Showing police officers respect has gone MILES for me. In high school i was pulled over 13 times for various offences (from speeding to driving on a side walk) and got ZERO tickets.

And I truly 100% believe it was because i was taught when an officer talks to you, you just stfu and listen, answer yes/no sir/ma’am, and dont give any back talk. Some people just refuse to take responsibility for their actions, and as a private citizen i find this infuriating.

I also have a hard time beleiving all the stories about people who were just “randomly” beat up by a cop on a power trip. There are cases of police brutality yes, but not near as many as people would lead us to believe. I dare say there are always precipitating factors. Dont believe me?

Go on a ride along (i have, was interested in law enforcement for a LONNGGG time), sit in with a police dispatcher for a shift ( i have, my mother is a telecomms officer with the rcmp), or just go sit outside, sober, near your local bar district on any given weekend and watch how people get all “wtf man!! i didnt do anything!!!” when a cop throws them to the ground and cuffs them for (random offence drunks normally do).

119

[quote]orion wrote:

I guess to some Americans the instinctual reaction is that they should have alarmed a SWAT team, call in air support and level the whole village with artillery strikes to eliminate this nest of isurgency from a safe distance.

[/quote]

Wow, just like Oradour-sur-Glane! (google it)

orion, there’s a difference between what happens in MOVIES about America, and what happens in real life. Movies are fantasy. Remember that.

120

hey DD, a friend of mine was traveling in San Diego and got a ticket from a traffic camera. I think that’s even more chickenshit than if she was pulled over by a cop. Cost 300 bucks. They got you. No way you can deny it. Is this the kind of law enforcement you favor?

After all traffic cameras do not give tickets to people whether they like them or not. They do not differenciate. Do you like seeing people get busted by traffic cameras?

At least you could talk a cop out of giving you a ticket if you have a good reason for speeding.