Fuck scientology
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
You do know christianity was first considered a cult, right?
[/quote]
Christianity was never started by a man on various drugs for treatment of psychosis. And they did not require you to pay annual membership fees. Or sign non-disclosure legal documents.
[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
You do know christianity was first considered a cult, right?
Christianity was never started by a man on various drugs for treatment of psychosis. And they did not require you to pay annual membership fees. Or sign non-disclosure legal documents.[/quote]
every time I think I’m out they pull me back in…
Religions evolve. Ancient jews sacrificed their first borns, christians sacrificed daughters, islam permits the slaying of those who dishonor the family and so on. Thank goodness those religions (some) have evolved. How appropriate that a newer religion requires money as the majority of people seem to worship money anyways.
And many religions have sacred texts that the majority of their followers will never see.
Christianity was started by a man possibley on drugs that said he was the son of God. Mormonism was started by a man possibley on drugs that thought an angel talked to him.
Christianity still discriminates against women, as do unfortunately the majority of the major religions.
But, talking trash about those religions is not making Scientology better so for that, bad on me.
I just am of the opinion that people are responsible for their own choices. Whatever you need or whatever you feel is what is your faith and is your comfort, speaks to you spiritually then you should be free to do so. And no please do not bring up, “What if I want to sacrifice virgins on the altar.” I hope you know what I mean by do what speaks to you.
I apologize to any christians, jews, mormons, or any other person of faith that I have offended. I have great respect for those of faith. I do not follow any organized religion but I do enjoy Baptist church music.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Religions evolve. Ancient jews sacrificed their first borns,[/quote]
Its in the Bible. Old testament. Genesis book somewhere.
[quote]
christians sacrificed daughters, islam permits the slaying of those who dishonor the family and so on.[/quote]
Whoa! Gotta do more reading on this…
[quote]
How appropriate that a newer religion requires money as the majority of people seem to worship money anyways.[/quote]
Nah. They don’t require money. They WANT money. Do you think Hubbard was a religious man? He was the greedy leader of his own personal cult.
[quote]
And many religions have sacred texts that the majority of their followers will never see.[/quote]
Yup. Why else have such a big library in the Vatican?
[quote]
Christianity was started by a man possibley on drugs that said he was the son of God.[/quote]
We will never know. But at least he was a good man. All his teachings have tried to help people and get away from things like organized religion.
Its ironic how the entire Christian Religion (& spin offs) is based on a man who didn’t believe in organized religion!
[quote]
Christianity still discriminates against women, as do unfortunately the majority of the major religions.[/quote]
Not in the bible. As an organized religion, yes. But the bible does not descriminate as much… still some in there from when the original manuscript was “edited” by the church.
But I don’t think the original teachings meant to discriminate. They were just stating the roles of man and woman. Bible ex: Man goes works the field all day, woman stays at home takes care of land & house… etc.
[quote]
But, talking trash about those religions is not making Scientology better so for that, bad on me.[/quote]
It is bad on you. You are putting Scientology up there with modern day Christianity. They are related only abstractly.
[quote]
I just am of the opinion that people are responsible for their own choices. Whatever you need or whatever you feel is what is your faith and is your comfort, speaks to you spiritually then you should be free to do so.[/quote]
I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Really.
I tried.
The UnFunny truth about Scientology:
[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
But I don’t think the original teachings meant to discriminate. They were just stating the roles of man and woman. Bible ex: Man goes works the field all day, woman stays at home takes care of land & house… etc.[/quote]
You should try reading it some time… The Bible clearly states that a woman is subservient to the man.
[i]Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Titus 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.[/i]
…and many, many more. The above is all from the New Testament. The OT is even worse. Just read the book before you go defending it.
Actually, I do think that you missed the point. You already said that there are certain books in every religion that people are not supposed to see. But that means never - ever. As a member of the faith, no Christian is supposed to see certain books - not unless they are actually running the church - but Christians are expected to read and know the Bible. Every Scientologist IS supposed to see certain books, the equivalent of the Christian bible. However, they are not permitted to see their Bible until they get to a certain point. In other words, they are not permitted to see their Bible until they have gone through several rounds of what is, apparently, brainwashing.
And I do agree with you that everyone should be allowed their own choice. On the other hand, people are not told what Scientology is before they enter into it. It is not like Christianity, Judaism, Islan, etc where everything is clearly out in the open (in a Bible, in texts, etc) before you join. You can learn about the religion without being part of it, unlike Scientology. People are told they can stay Christian and still be Scientologists, which is not true. So I do think that people who choose that direction have the freedom to, but it is fair warning to let people thinking about it know what they’re getting into.
I also tried to make clear that my main point was NOT that Scientology has weird beliefs - I put a ton of disclaimers about that when I did mention them - but that I was criticizing the organization surrounding those beliefs.*
So I want to clarify that I was not “talking trash.” I was trying to explain - and I think with a large number of disclaimers to make it clear - that I’m not denouncing it, I’m trying to explain what I found and why it is possibly not a true religion. What I mean is this: a cult is usually a religious organization. In the end, they do have certain beliefs. Scientology does not appear to be a religion. It appears to be strictly a profit venture that may very well have been created for that solely that purpose by a fiction writer who studied hypnosis.
All that I am saying is this: there is a strong POSSIBILITY that Scientology is not just, for example, a “cult,” but is actually just a profit-seeking creation. Like if YOU decided to make up a story, and different levels to be taught that story, and charged for it. I think there is a possibility that it is an insidious organization that uses people for money.
People are free to make their own choices. But I personally think they should also be free to make an informed decision, not be brainwashed (using published brainwashing techniques) into giving money to what may be, in all probability, a system (not a religion) created solely for the purpose of profit and not for the benefit of the practitioner.
No… there are some books that people just will never see. As was mentioned, there is a huge library in the Vatican and yes, if you have the money you an get in and see them and then there is also texts that you won’t ever get to see.
Scientology is an evolution of religion. Christmas is mostly commercial.
Unlike some, I don’t put parameters on what is acceptable for people to put their time, effort, money or faith into.
I believe in personal responsibility. Like you those who have an interest in Scientology can research before getting into it.
Brainwashing… you know you can’t be hypnotized unless you agree to it. And unless they are strapping folks down and forcing drugs into them, this is a consensual act.
My trash talk it all truth, I just am not happy with myself for dragging someone else’s faith through the mud.
Although the administration may be operating solely for the economic benefit of Scientology, I do not believe those who follow and are finding comfort are without benefit. They do benefit if they find solace, faith, purpose, whatever.
It isn’t for you, I get that.
[quote]CLewis wrote:
Actually, I do think that you missed the point. You already said that there are certain books in every religion that people are not supposed to see. But that means never - ever. As a member of the faith, no Christian is supposed to see certain books - not unless they are actually running the church - but Christians are expected to read and know the Bible. Every Scientologist IS supposed to see certain books, the equivalent of the Christian bible. However, they are not permitted to see their Bible until they get to a certain point. In other words, they are not permitted to see their Bible until they have gone through several rounds of what is, apparently, brainwashing.
And I do agree with you that everyone should be allowed their own choice. On the other hand, people are not told what Scientology is before they enter into it. It is not like Christianity, Judaism, Islan, etc where everything is clearly out in the open (in a Bible, in texts, etc) before you join. You can learn about the religion without being part of it, unlike Scientology. People are told they can stay Christian and still be Scientologists, which is not true. So I do think that people who choose that direction have the freedom to, but it is fair warning to let people thinking about it know what they’re getting into.
I also tried to make clear that my main point was NOT that Scientology has weird beliefs - I put a ton of disclaimers about that when I did mention them - but that I was criticizing the organization surrounding those beliefs.*
So I want to clarify that I was not “talking trash.” I was trying to explain - and I think with a large number of disclaimers to make it clear - that I’m not denouncing it, I’m trying to explain what I found and why it is possibly not a true religion. What I mean is this: a cult is usually a religious organization. In the end, they do have certain beliefs. Scientology does not appear to be a religion. It appears to be strictly a profit venture that may very well have been created for that solely that purpose by a fiction writer who studied hypnosis.
All that I am saying is this: there is a strong POSSIBILITY that Scientology is not just, for example, a “cult,” but is actually just a profit-seeking creation. Like if YOU decided to make up a story, and different levels to be taught that story, and charged for it. I think there is a possibility that it is an insidious organization that uses people for money.
People are free to make their own choices. But I personally think they should also be free to make an informed decision, not be brainwashed (using published brainwashing techniques) into giving money to what may be, in all probability, a system (not a religion) created solely for the purpose of profit and not for the benefit of the practitioner.[/quote]
And again, just want to reiterate a point - regardless of what, for example, the Bible may say, etc, what did the “creator” of the religion do?
Jesus didn’t seek to make Christianity, true - but you could say Jesus is to Christianity what Hubbard is to Scientology. Jesus never took millions of dollars from Christianity for his own use, and did not break into the IRS repeatedly. Jesus was more concerned about spreading his message than anything else. While it could be argued that Jesus “broke laws”, he did not do so for his own personal gain. Which, again, is part of the reason why it seems that Jesus really was interested in the beliefs of the religion, whereas Hubbard was just interested in starting a for-profit organization to benefit himself, not to start a legitimate religion.
The Bible wasn’t written by Christ. It was decided solely by a group of privileged white males and some texts were deemed unacceptable.
But again, Jesus was a Jew and not a Christian so we can see how his message really got turned around.
I am sorry I have hijacked your thread. I don’t think you started it to debate all religion and I definitely dragged it into that area.
So back to what is Scientology.
And from reading your past posts, I do believe you when you say people are responsible for their own decisions right or wrong.
[quote]CLewis wrote:
And again, just want to reiterate a point - regardless of what, for example, the Bible may say, etc, what did the “creator” of the religion do?
Jesus didn’t seek to make Christianity, true - but you could say Jesus is to Christianity what Hubbard is to Scientology. Jesus never took millions of dollars from Christianity for his own use, and did not break into the IRS repeatedly. Jesus was more concerned about spreading his message than anything else. While it could be argued that Jesus “broke laws”, he did not do so for his own personal gain. Which, again, is part of the reason why it seems that Jesus really was interested in the beliefs of the religion, whereas Hubbard was just interested in starting a for-profit organization to benefit himself, not to start a legitimate religion.[/quote]
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Brainwashing… you know you can’t be hypnotized unless you agree to it.
[/quote]
Brainwashing is quite different from hypnosis. Brainwashing can be and is frequently done against people’s will. However you are right that ultimately it is one’s choice regardless, but brainwashing creates an environment in which the person will be VERY unlikely to choose against the brainwashing.
[quote]HardcoreHorn wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Brainwashing… you know you can’t be hypnotized unless you agree to it.
Brainwashing is quite different from hypnosis. Brainwashing can be and is frequently done against people’s will. However you are right that ultimately it is one’s choice regardless, but brainwashing creates an environment in which the person will be VERY unlikely to choose against the brainwashing.[/quote]
Brainwashing against someone’s will involves drugs, bondage, deprivation, abuse, and that is just for starters.
I really hope you aren’t saying that Scientologists have none believers tied up in a basement and are subjecting them to torture.
See it is this kind of off-the-deep end remarks that start rumors and demonize.
Then again, perhaps you aren’t suggesting that those are the tactics that Scientologists are using.
[quote]pookie wrote:
You should try reading it some time… The Bible clearly states that a woman is subservient to the man.
[/quote]
Yes. That’s the way it always was. For the past… 20,000 years. Give or take a couple of thousand.
Where is your argument?
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Brainwashing against someone’s will involves drugs, bondage, deprivation, abuse, and that is just for starters.
I really hope you aren’t saying that Scientologists have none believers tied up in a basement and are subjecting them to torture.
See it is this kind of off-the-deep end remarks that start rumors and demonize.
Then again, perhaps you aren’t suggesting that those are the tactics that Scientologists are using.
[/quote]
You can join freely. But you can’t leave freely. You either get sued, harrassed, or killed depending on your level of threat to the cult.
Or they just lock you in a hotel room without food or water for 17 days. Then you kick and scream and plead to let you out… but they won’t. (For your own good that is.)
When the screaming and trying to break down the door stops… they wonder why you stopped?
Only to find your body covered in roaches since you died of blood clotting a few days earlier and they forgot about you.
They quickly rush your body to the hospital just so they can say that they tried to “help” and get you here in time. You are pronounced dead on arrival.
Your family hears about this… they sue for what they can. They try to raise public awareness about these wackos and what they did to you. But alas… it has little effect.
Your family continues the legal battle. The Scientologists try to make a settlement. you accept. However years after your death, your family has yet to see a penny. All they have left of you is a picture…
And the murderers got off the hook thanks to Overpaid Lawyers.
You Crime for all of this? You were part of the cult.
Read this: Death of Lisa McPherson - Wikipedia
Remember Lisa McPherson.
She is just one of the Hundreds of Documented deaths attributed to this cult.
[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
pookie wrote:
You should try reading it some time… The Bible clearly states that a woman is subservient to the man.
Yes. That’s the way it always was. For the past… 20,000 years. Give or take a couple of thousand.
Where is your argument?[/quote]
Because that is how it was doesn’t mean that it wasn’t discriminating. Don’t you see that?
And in ancient civilizations women were equal to men and in many societies the rulers had to descend from the line of the royal woman. This way they new the child really had the royal bloodline in them.
I’ve digressed again.
Also reading my posts… I really do seem to be defending Scientology. Don’t know why guess I just stick up for the underdog.
Freedom to choose means freedom not to choose also.
Documented evidence. As well as copies of the FBI archive on Ron l. Hubbard. the scisnce fiction writer and “messiah” to the Scientologists.
He’s dead from an overdose of drugs. He was on the run from the FBI after he infiltrated their headquarters with group members over a number of years.
The CIA, because of tax evasion.
The King of morroco after he brainwashed some of his “special police” and tried to have him assasinated. (That didn’t go too well. too bad he wasn’t caught and executed for high treason then.)
And that’s just a tiny preview.
[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Brainwashing against someone’s will involves drugs, bondage, deprivation, abuse, and that is just for starters.
I really hope you aren’t saying that Scientologists have none believers tied up in a basement and are subjecting them to torture.
See it is this kind of off-the-deep end remarks that start rumors and demonize.
Then again, perhaps you aren’t suggesting that those are the tactics that Scientologists are using.
You can join freely. But you can’t leave freely. You either get sued, harrassed, or killed depending on your level of threat to the cult.
Or they just lock you in a hotel room without food or water for 17 days. Then you kick and scream and plead to let you out… but they won’t. (For your own good that is.)
When the screaming and trying to break down the door stops… they wonder why you stopped?
Only to find your body covered in roaches since you died of blood clotting a few days earlier and they forgot about you.
They quickly rush your body to the hospital just so they can say that they tried to “help” and get you here in time. You are pronounced dead on arrival.
Your family hears about this… they sue for what they can. They try to raise public awareness about these wackos and what they did to you. But alas… it has little effect.
Your family continues the legal battle. The Scientologists try to make a settlement. you accept. However years after your death, your family has yet to see a penny. All they have left of you is a picture…
And the murderers got off the hook thanks to Overpaid Lawyers.
You Crime for all of this? You were part of the cult.
Read this: Death of Lisa McPherson - Wikipedia
Remember Lisa McPherson.
She is just one of the Hundreds of Documented deaths attributed to this cult.[/quote]
Do you think that ranks up there with the systematic cover up of pedophile priests? I could pull up a few articles.
Or the new nazi pope. Sorry… member of the German army.
or how about women in islamic religion and honor killings?
Mormons… forced marriage.
Christian Scientists and denied medical treatment.
Convents who would not release women and forced them into slavery well into the 1960s and 70s.
so… atrocities happen when zealots are in charge. Zealots bad, those of sincere faith, good.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Because that is how it was doesn’t mean that it wasn’t discriminating. Don’t you see that?[/quote]
No I do not.
I’m pretty sure this is how it was designed to be. its the norm. Therefore this is the way it should be.
It has been for thousands of years. So it must have worked.
Even in today’s society. Women are submissive to Men. Not the other way around.
Or do you wear the pants in your relationship?
[quote]
And in ancient civilizations women were equal to men and in many societies the rulers had to descend from the line of the royal woman. This way they new the child really had the royal bloodline in them.[/quote]
Sounds interesting. where can I read some more?
[quote]
Also reading my posts… I really do seem to be defending Scientology. Don’t know why guess I just stick up for the underdog.[/quote]
Yes you are. what you fail to realize is that its a cult and not a religion.
Just like the wacko Raelians.
[quote]brucevangeorge wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Because that is how it was doesn’t mean that it wasn’t discriminating. Don’t you see that?
No I do not.
I’m pretty sure this is how it was designed to be. its the norm. Therefore this is the way it should be.
It has been for thousands of years. So it must have worked.
Even in today’s society. Women are submissive to Men. Not the other way around.
Or do you wear the pants in your relationship?[/quote]
I can’t answer that question without somehow being wrong. I don’t date wimpy men. I appreciate a strong man.
[quote]And in ancient civilizations women were equal to men and in many societies the rulers had to descend from the line of the royal woman. This way they new the child really had the royal bloodline in them.
Sounds interesting. where can I read some more?[/quote]
Calgacus, of whom the Roman historian Tacitus wrote saying that he was a great warrior descended from “an ancient line of kings”, united the tribes of Scotland to form a defense against the threat of the Roman advance. He fought several battles against the Romans but was ultimately defeated and probably killed in the Battle of Mons Graupius in AD83. The successors of Calgac[us], the first [New Iron Age] King of Albany, descended in the female-line from his sisters, whose mother was a female-line descendant of the sister of Credne, the first [Late Iron Age] King of Scone, whose mother was a female-line descendant of the sister of Tarvos, the first [Middle Iron Age] King of Tara, whose mother was a female-line descendant of the sister of Cruach, the first [Old Iron Age] King of Aberffraw, whose mother was the sister of Ogmios, the last Bronze Age King of Britain, whose mother was a female-line descendant of Andate, the sister-wife of Ampher, who was Britain?s first [Bronze Age] king, according to Plato, the Greek classic, who wrote that Ampher and his sister-wife Andate were the son and daughter of the sea-god Poseidon [equivalent to the Roman deity Neptune] and the mortal-woman Cleito [equivalent to the Roman deity Britannia, the island-goddess of Britain].
That’s just Scotland. Egypt, Native American, Judaic and Mongolian just to name a few are also cultures in which they follow the female descendant.
[quote]Also reading my posts… I really do seem to be defending Scientology. Don’t know why guess I just stick up for the underdog.
Yes you are. what you fail to realize is that its a cult and not a religion.
Just like the wacko Raelians.[/quote]
and Christianity began as a cult. Religions evolve, new ones are created, some just go away.
I am so lacking in self-discipline…
Maybe we should start a new thread. I really have been taking this one a huge side trip.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Do you think that ranks up there with the systematic cover up of pedophile priests? I could pull up a few articles.
Or the new nazi pope. Sorry… member of the German army.
or how about women in islamic religion and honor killings?
Mormons… forced marriage.
Christian Scientists and denied medical treatment.
Convents who would not release women and forced them into slavery well into the 1960s and 70s.
so… atrocities happen when zealots are in charge. Zealots bad, those of sincere faith, good.
[/quote]
You are defending evil by claiming it is less than other evils?