Scientology - WTF?

[Dweezil]

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Do you think we are going point counter-point here?[/quote]

I’m very confident of it.

Unlike you I don’t have an axe to grind for or against anyone’s belief system.

You may not have a greataxe, but do you have any handaxes like Klip?

I don’t dislike Scientology because of the beliefs behind the Scientology ‘religion.’ I dislike Scientology because of the methodology behind the Church of Scientology. I have come to the conclusion that I dislike their methods based on the acts they perform and the things they say, much how anyone would come to a conclusion about anything. It is called reasoning, and it is an amazing gift humans have been granted with. Check it out when you’ve got some time.

If Scientology is what gives some people comfort, direction, or a social meeting place, more power to them.

I don’t disagree.

There was a cover up with the pedophile scandal. The priest was transferred to Mexico and then the church relayed his confession to the police, that’s just one.

I never mentioned cover ups, though that’s fine. What the Catholic Church did is reprehensible. The Catholic Church does not perform command hypnosis en masse on Catholics. The Catholic Church does not have people with no schooling in medicine, must less the fields of psychiatry or biochemistry, pull children off Schedule II medication with no understanding of the repercussions of pulling an adolescent mind off a psychotropic substance.

It is just too easy to bash any of the churches or spiritual beliefs of another and too easy to call it brainwashing.

While I’m sure you’re enjoying how fence you’re sitting on feels, a few hours of active study on the topic of Scientology and the actions of those in the hierarchy of the CoS would do you well.

I try to question things but not to find faults with a system of belief, but what do I agree with, what rings true, what can I use to develop my own spirituality.

The belief and the application of the belief are two different things. I think the core beliefs behind Scientology are hilarious in their frivolity, but the application by the CoS is incredibly dangerous in the current social climate of a yearning for spiritual enlightenment, and there is nothing that opens a greater door for manipulation than belief, which is why we should be on guard against the manipulators.

As for denial of medical treatment there are churches that reject anything but the most basic of medical attention. This has been upheld in the courts. It isn’t that unusual.

It is not denial, it is removal. Denial of psychotropic drugs is in many ways superior to removal of psychotropic drugs by someone who does not understand the effects of psychotropic drugs. Scientology actively promotes an alternative, very effectively with expensive marketing campaigns, completely unaware of what the correct detoxification process is for a typical drug addict, much less the protocols involved in removing someone who is mentally ill from psychotropic drugs.

Hubbard believed his father practiced the same black magic Hitler did, and he believes psychiatrists helped Xenu kill billions of people in the guise of bringing people in for an audit of their income taxes from all different planets. If you put money behind this, it becomes dangerous.

Back to the money issue

It is a tiered payment system. You must pay to advance in the Church of Scientology, and the teachings of Scientology. That is a for profit organization.

[quote]Alwyn Cosgrove in his article had a phrase from Bruce Lee that fits here,
“Absorb what is useful; reject what is useless.” It really is that easy but it takes the effort on an individual’s part to put the time and consideration into what can be a major part of your life.[/quote]

I like Alwyn Cosgrove. He’s a very smart man, and I’m sure he’s resistant to anyone trying to manipulate him. Unfortunately for many others, they are not so resistant. Children are even less resistant.

Scientology is a choice, people have thier rights. There are a lot more organizations I have issue with then a voluntary spiritual system that I don’t have to buy into if I don’t want to.

It is a choice. And it is the choice of people within the CoS to break laws and subvert governments in an attempt to forcefully establish credibility in many governments. It is the choice of people within the CoS to viciously attack people who criticize them, and it is the choice of the elders within the church to grant them the resources to do so. It is the choice of the church to put pressure on children of Scientologists if they want to leave the church. It is the choice of Scientologists to promote an incredibly unhealthy and ignorant crusade against the pharmaceutical industry. It is the choice of the church to use command hypnosis, it is the choice of the church to require large sums of money for ‘advancement’ in the church and it is the choice of the church to bring people into the church under the guise of motivational seminars and physically pressuring them into staying and becoming a member of the church.

I should add, of course, that it is a choice to refuse the advances of Scientologists, and there is a decision people who are willing to research these issues have to make. That decision, of course, being whether or not you want to sit on the fence on the issue of Scientology for the sake of neutrality, a faux neutrality disguising inability to make decisions.

[ElbowStrike]

What is Scientology?

A dangerous cult. You stay the FUCK away from it!

[Ren]

scientology is a scam. Audits are basically cheap lie detection sessions, spill out your guts while the church records it all, good luck trying to leave when they have the dirt on you.

Also, did you know Tom Cruise can fly? He has superpowers you know, the Church of Scientology says so. Of course it is irresponsible and reckless for him to use such powers, which is why we will never see them.

L. Ron Hubbard’s desire to create a religion is pretty well known. Besides, despite many arguments I have had with various religious people, I know of very few instances where they have threatened to sue/blackmail a person for disagreeing with them, something Scientology loves to do.

I am not a very religious person, but I can respect other people’s religions so long as they are reasonable with it and don’t try to lord it over me that I am going to hell or some such shit. Scientology however gets no respect, and never will. Its a despicable cult.

[tweaker]

If you want to know more about it, then join up and tell us what you find out.

[OctoberGirl]

No, you really didn’t understand my post. I don’t sit on a fence. I am in my own yard. I don’t have an axe to grind, I am not threatened by the faith systems of others.

I was trying to get you to understand my position that faith is personal and you may not agree with it for yourself you (IMO) should not deny it to someone else who finds comfort in that faith.

Perhaps I didn’t understand when you seemed to imply that I wasn’t informed in my opinion. I am a History major with a minor in world religions. As I said, my one father’s mother was a staunch and practicing Southern Baptist, and my mother’s mother was a very traditional Jew. I learned to appreciate both religions and keep my opinions on how they lived their faith anf values to myself. I watched and learned.

I don’t have a faux neturatlity, have you used a crystal ball to intuit that or do you believe you are the man behind the curtain?

It isn’t my faith that is at issue so of course I don’t feel the need to inhibit someone else’s belief.

I don’t want to bash the Catholic church. I feel I have stated more than is necessary in regards to my not being a huge fan. It isn’t kind to go more into detail regarding their stand on civil rights, reproductive rights, social rights, and of course inequitable treatment of the sexes.

The Catholic church has excommunicated our government representatives because of their stand behind our Constitution and our garuanteed rights. I see that as a way of trying to manipulate the government. Well there I go with the Catholic church again.

I am sure many see Israel as a sinister plot allied with our government. Ghandi and Confucius believed women were subservient to men. Nothing is perfect.

There are governments in the world wherein missionaries are jailed for espousing the word of the Catholic church. China is just one of those governments.

No one should be dictating anyone’s belief. Scientology is a faith system that brings comfort to many.

There is mob hysteria, but there is no mass hypnosis, they don’t have special mind control powers.

Next time ask me my position, don’t tell me where it is. I will give you an answer.

[quote]Dweezil wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Do you think we are going point counter-point here?

I’m very confident of it.

Unlike you I don’t have an axe to grind for or against anyone’s belief system.

You may not have a greataxe, but do you have any handaxes like Klip?

I don’t dislike Scientology because of the beliefs behind the Scientology ‘religion.’ I dislike Scientology because of the methodology behind the Church of Scientology. I have come to the conclusion that I dislike their methods based on the acts they perform and the things they say, much how anyone would come to a conclusion about anything. It is called reasoning, and it is an amazing gift humans have been granted with. Check it out when you’ve got some time.

If Scientology is what gives some people comfort, direction, or a social meeting place, more power to them.

I don’t disagree.

There was a cover up with the pedophile scandal. The priest was transferred to Mexico and then the church relayed his confession to the police, that’s just one.

I never mentioned cover ups, though that’s fine. What the Catholic Church did is reprehensible. The Catholic Church does not perform command hypnosis en masse on Catholics. The Catholic Church does not have people with no schooling in medicine, must less the fields of psychiatry or biochemistry, pull children off Schedule II medication with no understanding of the repercussions of pulling an adolescent mind off a psychotropic substance.

It is just too easy to bash any of the churches or spiritual beliefs of another and too easy to call it brainwashing.

While I’m sure you’re enjoying how fence you’re sitting on feels, a few hours of active study on the topic of Scientology and the actions of those in the hierarchy of the CoS would do you well.

I try to question things but not to find faults with a system of belief, but what do I agree with, what rings true, what can I use to develop my own spirituality.

The belief and the application of the belief are two different things. I think the core beliefs behind Scientology are hilarious in their frivolity, but the application by the CoS is incredibly dangerous in the current social climate of a yearning for spiritual enlightenment, and there is nothing that opens a greater door for manipulation than belief, which is why we should be on guard against the manipulators.

As for denial of medical treatment there are churches that reject anything but the most basic of medical attention. This has been upheld in the courts. It isn’t that unusual.

It is not denial, it is removal. Denial of psychotropic drugs is in many ways superior to removal of psychotropic drugs by someone who does not understand the effects of psychotropic drugs. Scientology actively promotes an alternative, very effectively with expensive marketing campaigns, completely unaware of what the correct detoxification process is for a typical drug addict, much less the protocols involved in removing someone who is mentally ill from psychotropic drugs.

Hubbard believed his father practiced the same black magic Hitler did, and he believes psychiatrists helped Xenu kill billions of people in the guise of bringing people in for an audit of their income taxes from all different planets. If you put money behind this, it becomes dangerous.

Back to the money issue

It is a tiered payment system. You must pay to advance in the Church of Scientology, and the teachings of Scientology. That is a for profit organization.

Alwyn Cosgrove in his article had a phrase from Bruce Lee that fits here,
“Absorb what is useful; reject what is useless.” It really is that easy but it takes the effort on an individual’s part to put the time and consideration into what can be a major part of your life.

I like Alwyn Cosgrove. He’s a very smart man, and I’m sure he’s resistant to anyone trying to manipulate him. Unfortunately for many others, they are not so resistant. Children are even less resistant.

Scientology is a choice, people have thier rights. There are a lot more organizations I have issue with then a voluntary spiritual system that I don’t have to buy into if I don’t want to.

It is a choice. And it is the choice of people within the CoS to break laws and subvert governments in an attempt to forcefully establish credibility in many governments. It is the choice of people within the CoS to viciously attack people who criticize them, and it is the choice of the elders within the church to grant them the resources to do so. It is the choice of the church to put pressure on children of Scientologists if they want to leave the church. It is the choice of Scientologists to promote an incredibly unhealthy and ignorant crusade against the pharmaceutical industry. It is the choice of the church to use command hypnosis, it is the choice of the church to require large sums of money for ‘advancement’ in the church and it is the choice of the church to bring people into the church under the guise of motivational seminars and physically pressuring them into staying and becoming a member of the church.

I should add, of course, that it is a choice to refuse the advances of Scientologists, and there is a decision people who are willing to research these issues have to make. That decision, of course, being whether or not you want to sit on the fence on the issue of Scientology for the sake of neutrality, a faux neutrality disguising inability to make decisions.[/quote]

[OctoberGirl]

[quote]Ren wrote:
scientology is a scam. Audits are basically cheap lie detection sessions, spill out your guts while the church records it all, good luck trying to leave when they have the dirt on you.

Also, did you know Tom Cruise can fly? He has superpowers you know, the Church of Scientology says so. Of course it is irresponsible and reckless for him to use such powers, which is why we will never see them.

L. Ron Hubbard’s desire to create a religion is pretty well known. Besides, despite many arguments I have had with various religious people, I know of very few instances where they have threatened to sue/blackmail a person for disagreeing with them, something Scientology loves to do.

I am not a very religious person, but I can respect other people’s religions so long as they are reasonable with it and don’t try to lord it over me that I am going to hell or some such shit. Scientology however gets no respect, and never will. Its a despicable cult.[/quote]

what about the line, “if you don’t accept Christ as your savior you will burn in hell.”

[Houshin_Akai]

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
I was trying to get you to understand my position that faith is personal and you may not agree with it for yourself you (IMO) should not deny it to someone else who finds comfort in that faith.
[/quote]

If you saw a house on fire, and a person in that house, would you not want to save them? And if they were in a small plastic pool in the living room, filled with a bit of water, and declined any help to get out of the house, would you walk off and leave them alone simply because they had faith the little pool would save them from the burning house around them?

Scientology is a burning house. Dont stand to the side and watch as someone is eaten by the flame stupidly, just because they “think” they are safe.

This can be said of many religions in speculation, however when it’s 100% clear , as in this case, something SHOULD be done.

[Dweezil]

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
No, you really didn’t understand my post.[/quote]

I understand everything. I used to go tree hunting with Lefthand Bob and long story short there was a lynching of a blasphemer and we ended up getting invited to the Queen’s aunt’s daughter’s labrador’s birthday party where we saw Richard Nixon and Al Gore, which is kind of weird since Nixon is dead but he looked pretty spry and he was still scoring with the ladies, and now I hate rice and I’m afraid to touch porcelain.

So, as you can see, my understanding of the universe transcends modern space and time.

I don’t sit on a fence. I am in my own yard. I don’t have an axe to grind, I am not threatened by the faith systems of others.

Maybe you haven’t been understanding my postings either, and it’s all an issue of miscommunication. Never once have I said Scientology should be abolished. I am saying that there should be safeguards in place to assist people in leaving the church if they wish to do so, because the church is notorious in the actions they will take to silence critics and keep people in the church.

I was trying to get you to understand my position that faith is personal and you may not agree with it for yourself you (IMO) should not deny it to someone else who finds comfort in that faith.

You should read my last post, where you said something similar and I agreed with you. It might clear up some things.

Perhaps I didn’t understand when you seemed to imply that I wasn’t informed in my opinion. I am a History major with a minor in world religions. As I said, my one father’s mother was a staunch and practicing Southern Baptist, and my mother’s mother was a very traditional Jew. I learned to appreciate both religions and keep my opinions on how they lived their faith anf values to myself. I watched and learned.

You are not informed in your opinion on this issue. While you sound very worldly, and that’s an admirable trait and one that is becoming increasingly rare, your knowledge of Scientology is at best iffy. You’re countering arguments I’m making with heinous acts committed by other religions, without understanding that in the religion of Scientology people essentially become Gods at a certain level, or so is their belief.

This is not an old religion. The ties held to the founder of it, and the people he put in a position of power are still in place. While Jerry Falwell may be a great example of other crazy assholes, he was not appointed to his position by Christ. He was not appointed to his position by the first Pope. Many of the elders within the CoS were, and that is why the acts they commit that are heinous carry more weight.

I don’t have a faux neturatlity, have you used a crystal ball to intuit that or do you believe you are the man behind the curtain?

I’m not behind the curtain, and I’m not in the closet. I don’t play for the other team, I’m not even a switch hitter. I don’t appreciate you calling me gay in a public forum. You could ruin my professional credibility with statements like that!

For one to profess a position one must be informed of the issue being discussed. You do not strike me as overly studied on the issue of Scientology. Your neutrality is a byproduct of an intriguing upbringing that you’re using to apply to this discussion, and while your upbringing and studies may give you more insight than someone else arguing an issue like this it does not compensate for a lack of knowledge of the issue being discussed.

It isn’t my faith that is at issue so of course I don’t feel the need to inhibit someone else’s belief.

And, again, neither do I.

I don’t want to bash the Catholic church.

They’re all a bunch of fruit baskets in party dresses who fuck kids and hate Jews. Am I warm? Marco? Marcoooo

The Catholic church has excommunicated our government representatives because of their stand behind our Constitution and our garuanteed rights. I see that as a way of trying to manipulate the government. Well there I go with the Catholic church again.

Subversion and pressure. Subtle (read: not subtle) differences. If the Catholic church was operating as the CoS does, they would directly put pressure on any Catholic government officials and attempt to flood the government with Catholics who have the hidden agenda of… whatever the agenda in this example is (presumably passing pro-party dress kid fucking weird hat laws or something).

I am sure many see Israel as a sinister plot allied with our government. Ghandi and Confucius believed women were subservient to men. Nothing is perfect.

Is the lesser of two evils a theory I could use to get through to you with?

There are governments in the world wherein missionaries are jailed for espousing the word of the Catholic church. China is just one of those governments.

Everyone from China is either 3 feet tall or playing in the NBA. You can’t trust a country with that kind of height disparity. They’re probably aliens working with the CoS as we speak.

No one should be dictating anyone’s belief. Scientology is a faith system that brings comfort to many.

A pillow brings comfort to my head. My pillow, however, does not try to smother me in my sleep if I don’t give it enough money to learn more of the ancient path of the pillow God Pillorious, who it is said in the ancient text written upon the first Serta shall “return unto this Earth, and in an act of righteous vengeance shall purge from this world the sheets who would dare to encroach upon the pillows and the maids who would dare to leave chocolate upon the pillows in a heathenistic death ritual that binds the souls of pillows to their chubby, immigrant, underpaid whims, in a bloodbath of epic proportions this sunday Sunday SUNDAY!”

It’s some trippy shit.

There is mob hysteria, but there is no mass hypnosis, they don’t have special mind control powers.

Do you know what command hypnosis is? How you can assert positive authoritative control over a person? In one session of ‘auditing’ you can effectively brainwash someone.

This is beyond mob hysteria. This is beyond charismatic doctrines used in public speaking, and putting plants in audience to start groundswells of emotion, in the stylings of Hitler and faith healers. This is beyond all of that. While they may have no idea of the effects they cause when they remove people from psychoactive substances, there are many in the CoS who are very well trained in authoritative hypnosis.

Please, research before typing. The less time I spend responding to naivety is more time I can spend talking about party dresses.

Next time ask me my position, don’t tell me where it is. I will give you an answer.

So, what’s your sign?

[OctoberGirl]

[quote]Houshin Akai wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
I was trying to get you to understand my position that faith is personal and you may not agree with it for yourself you (IMO) should not deny it to someone else who finds comfort in that faith.

If you saw a house on fire, and a person in that house, would you not want to save them? And if they were in a small plastic pool in the living room, filled with a bit of water, and declined any help to get out of the house, would you walk off and leave them alone simply because they had faith the little pool would save them from the burning house around them?

Scientology is a burning house. Dont stand to the side and watch as someone is eaten by the flame stupidly, just because they “think” they are safe.

This can be said of many religions in speculation, however when it’s 100% clear , as in this case, something SHOULD be done.[/quote]

I just don’t share your opinion that it is a danger and should be eradicated.

okay well, I can read where it seems that I am trying to sell Scientology when I am not. Or that isn’t my intent.

People just need to make decisions for themselves and not for others.

[OctoberGirl]

I used the examples of other religions to emphasize there is a commonality wherein there are practices that may be perceived by others as dangerous, strange, unwelcome.

Because I didn’t respond with internet research you say I am naive.

There’s no tone so I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren’t trying to be patronizing.

All religions were new at one time.

There are societal groups that are not considered religions that have practices that can be considered to be dangerous, mind controlling and for profit. Unions, sports teams, masons, boy scouts, girl scouts, boosters, and of course college fraternities and sororities. They have hazing and brain washing rituals, require money, impress and pressure and commit crimes.

I am neither a fan nor a denouncer of Scientology. I actually don’t know why I have picked up the torch on this one.

People need to be free to choose.

Religions evolve, they need to, the world isn’t static and neither are our beliefs.

Again, I think I may have eaten too much turkey, too much wine, it isn’t my soapbox but apparently, even to me, I have borrowed it for a while. I will get down now.

Libra

[quote]Dweezil wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
No, you really didn’t understand my post.

I understand everything. I used to go tree hunting with Lefthand Bob and long story short there was a lynching of a blasphemer and we ended up getting invited to the Queen’s aunt’s daughter’s labrador’s birthday party where we saw Richard Nixon and Al Gore, which is kind of weird since Nixon is dead but he looked pretty spry and he was still scoring with the ladies, and now I hate rice and I’m afraid to touch porcelain.

So, as you can see, my understanding of the universe transcends modern space and time.

I don’t sit on a fence. I am in my own yard. I don’t have an axe to grind, I am not threatened by the faith systems of others.

Maybe you haven’t been understanding my postings either, and it’s all an issue of miscommunication. Never once have I said Scientology should be abolished. I am saying that there should be safeguards in place to assist people in leaving the church if they wish to do so, because the church is notorious in the actions they will take to silence critics and keep people in the church.

I was trying to get you to understand my position that faith is personal and you may not agree with it for yourself you (IMO) should not deny it to someone else who finds comfort in that faith.

You should read my last post, where you said something similar and I agreed with you. It might clear up some things.

Perhaps I didn’t understand when you seemed to imply that I wasn’t informed in my opinion. I am a History major with a minor in world religions. As I said, my one father’s mother was a staunch and practicing Southern Baptist, and my mother’s mother was a very traditional Jew. I learned to appreciate both religions and keep my opinions on how they lived their faith anf values to myself. I watched and learned.

You are not informed in your opinion on this issue. While you sound very worldly, and that’s an admirable trait and one that is becoming increasingly rare, your knowledge of Scientology is at best iffy. You’re countering arguments I’m making with heinous acts committed by other religions, without understanding that in the religion of Scientology people essentially become Gods at a certain level, or so is their belief.

This is not an old religion. The ties held to the founder of it, and the people he put in a position of power are still in place. While Jerry Falwell may be a great example of other crazy assholes, he was not appointed to his position by Christ. He was not appointed to his position by the first Pope. Many of the elders within the CoS were, and that is why the acts they commit that are heinous carry more weight.

I don’t have a faux neturatlity, have you used a crystal ball to intuit that or do you believe you are the man behind the curtain?

I’m not behind the curtain, and I’m not in the closet. I don’t play for the other team, I’m not even a switch hitter. I don’t appreciate you calling me gay in a public forum. You could ruin my professional credibility with statements like that!

For one to profess a position one must be informed of the issue being discussed. You do not strike me as overly studied on the issue of Scientology. Your neutrality is a byproduct of an intriguing upbringing that you’re using to apply to this discussion, and while your upbringing and studies may give you more insight than someone else arguing an issue like this it does not compensate for a lack of knowledge of the issue being discussed.

It isn’t my faith that is at issue so of course I don’t feel the need to inhibit someone else’s belief.

And, again, neither do I.

I don’t want to bash the Catholic church.

They’re all a bunch of fruit baskets in party dresses who fuck kids and hate Jews. Am I warm? Marco? Marcoooo

The Catholic church has excommunicated our government representatives because of their stand behind our Constitution and our garuanteed rights. I see that as a way of trying to manipulate the government. Well there I go with the Catholic church again.

Subversion and pressure. Subtle (read: not subtle) differences. If the Catholic church was operating as the CoS does, they would directly put pressure on any Catholic government officials and attempt to flood the government with Catholics who have the hidden agenda of… whatever the agenda in this example is (presumably passing pro-party dress kid fucking weird hat laws or something).

I am sure many see Israel as a sinister plot allied with our government. Ghandi and Confucius believed women were subservient to men. Nothing is perfect.

Is the lesser of two evils a theory I could use to get through to you with?

There are governments in the world wherein missionaries are jailed for espousing the word of the Catholic church. China is just one of those governments.

Everyone from China is either 3 feet tall or playing in the NBA. You can’t trust a country with that kind of height disparity. They’re probably aliens working with the CoS as we speak.

No one should be dictating anyone’s belief. Scientology is a faith system that brings comfort to many.

A pillow brings comfort to my head. My pillow, however, does not try to smother me in my sleep if I don’t give it enough money to learn more of the ancient path of the pillow God Pillorious, who it is said in the ancient text written upon the first Serta shall “return unto this Earth, and in an act of righteous vengeance shall purge from this world the sheets who would dare to encroach upon the pillows and the maids who would dare to leave chocolate upon the pillows in a heathenistic death ritual that binds the souls of pillows to their chubby, immigrant, underpaid whims, in a bloodbath of epic proportions this sunday Sunday SUNDAY!”

It’s some trippy shit.

There is mob hysteria, but there is no mass hypnosis, they don’t have special mind control powers.

Do you know what command hypnosis is? How you can assert positive authoritative control over a person? In one session of ‘auditing’ you can effectively brainwash someone.

This is beyond mob hysteria. This is beyond charismatic doctrines used in public speaking, and putting plants in audience to start groundswells of emotion, in the stylings of Hitler and faith healers. This is beyond all of that. While they may have no idea of the effects they cause when they remove people from psychoactive substances, there are many in the CoS who are very well trained in authoritative hypnosis.

Please, research before typing. The less time I spend responding to naivety is more time I can spend talking about party dresses.

Next time ask me my position, don’t tell me where it is. I will give you an answer.

So, what’s your sign?[/quote]

[Ren]

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Ren wrote:
scientology is a scam. Audits are basically cheap lie detection sessions, spill out your guts while the church records it all, good luck trying to leave when they have the dirt on you.

Also, did you know Tom Cruise can fly? He has superpowers you know, the Church of Scientology says so. Of course it is irresponsible and reckless for him to use such powers, which is why we will never see them.

L. Ron Hubbard’s desire to create a religion is pretty well known. Besides, despite many arguments I have had with various religious people, I know of very few instances where they have threatened to sue/blackmail a person for disagreeing with them, something Scientology loves to do.

I am not a very religious person, but I can respect other people’s religions so long as they are reasonable with it and don’t try to lord it over me that I am going to hell or some such shit. Scientology however gets no respect, and never will. Its a despicable cult.

what about the line, “if you don’t accept Christ as your savior you will burn in hell.”

[/quote]

What about it?

[Petedacook]

[quote]Dweezil wrote:
ill wrote:
I don’t see what makes any other belief system any better or worse for that matter, just because it has existed for a long time doesn’t mean anything. But then again it is necessary for all the irrational people who can’t think for themselves, who make statements that lead you to think that there would be complete anarchy if they didn’t go to Hell as a consequence. But hey bash away.

See, the reason I don’t put Scientology on a level with any other major religion is because I can’t think of any other religion that had the wife of the founder of the religion breaking into IRS offices to steal confidential documents in an attempt to re-gain tax exemption status, which is used in extensive public relations campaigns to try and support said religion as a bona fide religion.

I can’t think of too many major religions that are considered hostile cults in European countries. I can’t think of too many major religions that have been convicted in trial by jury of breaking breach of public trust laws (the reason I can’t think of too many is because it’s the only time it’s ever happened) for a conspiracy to infiltrate the government in Canada.

I can’t think of too many major religions that have been categorized as a cult in France’s National Assembly with the recommendation to prohibit all activities related to the church.

I can’t think of too many religions that Belgium refuses as a candidate for the status of organized religion in that country and I can’t think of too many religions that have 15 of the 16 states in Germany conducting regular surveillance upon them because of fears that they are essentially attempting to subvert the German government in Germany.

Then again, maybe my memory is just hazy. I think Muhammad and Jesus at one time hooked up and broke into Caesars Palace in Las Vegas in an attempt to cover up their use of extortion on former members of their religion. Buddha was driving the van. He was late, and Ghandi was running around in the street screaming “Where’s the fucking van!?” It’s all coming back to me, Scientology is definitely on the level with Christianity and Islam now.[/quote]

You are awesome Dweez. I keep seeing solid posts by you.

[Dweezil]

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
I used the examples of other religions to emphasize there is a commonality wherein there are practices that may be perceived by others as dangerous, strange, unwelcome.[/quote]

These are not practices that are perceived as dangerous. Having unlicensed retards remove children from psychotropic drugs because of parents who were mislead with pseudo-science and a grand marketing campaign is incredibly dangerous.

Actually, I’m surprised the problem hasn’t neutralized itself and that those children haven’t turned around and killed all the Scientologists. So far they’ve only killed a couple. There’s always next year, I guess.

Because I didn’t respond with internet research you say I am naive.

I call you naive because you didn’t know that the founder of the religion was heavily involved in hypnotism, and you don’t know how easy it is to assert authoritative control over someone when you’re trained to do it and they’re willing to submit to the initial hypnotism (also known as brainwashing).

There are societal groups that are not considered religions that have practices that can be considered to be dangerous, mind controlling and for profit. Unions, sports teams, masons, boy scouts, girl scouts, boosters, and of course college fraternities and sororities. They have hazing and brain washing rituals, require money, impress and pressure and commit crimes.

Charismatic leaders using methods they do not understand. Scientologists understand these methods and they use them as tools. If you can not see where the distinction is drawn then you are lost to us. Gather some brush, light a fire and I’ll send a scout team out to you.

People need to be free to choose.

And why this argument is aimless, and why it will end shortly (or already has, I suppose) is because you are either unaware or ignoring the fact that I agree with you completely.

I dislike the methodology of the church, I have never said they should be abolished. They do practice forms of brainwashing and are ruthless in retaining members and deriding critics, and for that I think that there should be support groups or shelters or what have you set up for people attempting to leave the church. Finding someone who is truly skilled in deprogramming is not easy, and if these resources were given to people trying to leave the church it would make their lives much easier.

Religions evolve, they need to, the world isn’t static and neither are our beliefs.

I still believe in static stretching, so I just disproved that theory.

Libra

I am a Leo. You may have guessed!

Oh hey look what I stumbled across

[quote]This can be a very warm and mutually fulfilling relationship. Both of you are romantics at heart and tend to be “in love with love”. You both need and love romantic gestures, the giving and receiving of gifts, etc. Personal appearances and attractiveness is important to both of you as well, and you both are somewhat vain.

Leo is more decisive and very clear about personal preferences and desires, while Libra is more flexible and will compromise graciously in order to please Leo. Leo is more self-absorbed or self-centred that Libra. Of the two of you, Leo is the stronger individual, and the balance of power in your relationship may be somewhat lopsided. However, Libra has a highly developed sense of fairness and equality, and will protest sooner or later if Leo begins to expect obediances all of the time.

Both of you are personable, friendly, and affectionate, with a strong romantic streak, but you are different in many respects also.

Leo is individualistic, proud, and somewhat egotistical, while Libra is more concerned with “us” rather than “me”. Libra is more aware of others’ needs than Leo is, and ore willing to accommodate them. This can be a significant problem for Libra at times ? being too obliging, too eager to please, compromising too much. Being indecisive is also a habit of Libra’s. On the other hand, Leo is naturally rather self-centred, more dominant, certain, and decisive, and may unintentionally take advantage of Libra’s agreeableness. But Libra does have a strong sense of fairness and will resent being the one who give in all of the time.

Wit, intelligence, and an active mind are attributes the two of you share, and in your relationship there will be a focus on communicating, bantering, a lot of verbal give and take. Both of you tend to be the dominant one in any discussion or debate, and you may find yourselves competing with each other in your discussions. This most likely will not be a major problem, but both of you would do well to step back and truly listen to one another.

Neither of you is particularly conventional, nor are you great lovers of rules and formal traditions for their own sake, but Leo is apt to have a much harder time conforming, and may in fact openly scorn or rebel against such limitations. There is apt to be a great deal of change, constant motion, fluctuating circumstances, and disorganisation in Leo’s life, whereas Libra embraces necessary changes and flows with them but doesn’t seem to need to create upsetting and unstable situations all of the time. Libra can help Leo learn how to be true to oneself and one’s own beliefs and nature without needing to always rail against “the establishment” or “the system”.

There is an electric, immediate attraction between the two of you and an element of surprise, discovery, and spontaneity will always infuse your relationship.

Libra stimulates Leo to be more uninhibited, looser, less conventional, and to experiment. Libra can also be unpredictable and changeable toward Leo, and Leo may feel that Libra is not to be relied upon. Libra brings out Leo’s independent or eccentric side. Personal freedom, independence, and individuality are highlighted in your relationship, and sometimes one or both of you feels that there is not enough togetherness, mutual dependency, or emotional closeness.

There is much enthusiasm and spark between you, and your relationship is always changing, always exciting.

Your feelings towards each other change quickly and you often react to each other rather impulsively. When the mood is right, you find each other sexually irresistible, but at other times you get on each other’s nerves. You may feel like you fall in and out of love on a monthly basis! It seems that you are either making love, fighting with each other, or indifferent to each other, and you may sometimes wish for greater constancy. Your domestic life is likely to be very unstable. If you can be flexible and flow with the fluctuating feelings, this relationship can be exciting and fascinating - otherwise your patience will wear thin and you will perceive your relationship as hopelessly unstable and your partner as unreliable and untrustworthy.

Sexual attraction is very strong, but as with other things, one of you is likely to come on too strong to the other and this may be offensive to your partner. There is a driving, compelling, somewhat impersonal quality to your love-making at times.

Leo tends to dominate the sexual expression. Your affairs are seldom static. In physical affection, you are very anxious to please each other. Mirrors, oils, bedroom toys may attract you.

There is a certain air of openness, tolerance, and freedom between you, and you would both encourage one another to seek friendship, positive experiences, and rewarding connections outside of the relationship as well as within it.[/quote]

Bedroom toys and mirrors? Sign me up.

[OctoberGirl]

[quote]Dweezil wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
I used the examples of other religions to emphasize there is a commonality wherein there are practices that may be perceived by others as dangerous, strange, unwelcome.

These are not practices that are perceived as dangerous. Having unlicensed retards remove children from psychotropic drugs because of parents who were mislead with pseudo-science and a grand marketing campaign is incredibly dangerous.

Actually, I’m surprised the problem hasn’t neutralized itself and that those children haven’t turned around and killed all the Scientologists. So far they’ve only killed a couple. There’s always next year, I guess.

Because I didn’t respond with internet research you say I am naive.

I call you naive because you didn’t know that the founder of the religion was heavily involved in hypnotism, and you don’t know how easy it is to assert authoritative control over someone when you’re trained to do it and they’re willing to submit to the initial hypnotism (also known as brainwashing).

There are societal groups that are not considered religions that have practices that can be considered to be dangerous, mind controlling and for profit. Unions, sports teams, masons, boy scouts, girl scouts, boosters, and of course college fraternities and sororities. They have hazing and brain washing rituals, require money, impress and pressure and commit crimes.

Charismatic leaders using methods they do not understand. Scientologists understand these methods and they use them as tools. If you can not see where the distinction is drawn then you are lost to us. Gather some brush, light a fire and I’ll send a scout team out to you.

People need to be free to choose.

And why this argument is aimless, and why it will end shortly (or already has, I suppose) is because you are either unaware or ignoring the fact that I agree with you completely.

I dislike the methodology of the church, I have never said they should be abolished. They do practice forms of brainwashing and are ruthless in retaining members and deriding critics, and for that I think that there should be support groups or shelters or what have you set up for people attempting to leave the church. Finding someone who is truly skilled in deprogramming is not easy, and if these resources were given to people trying to leave the church it would make their lives much easier.

Religions evolve, they need to, the world isn’t static and neither are our beliefs.

I still believe in static stretching, so I just disproved that theory.

Libra

I am a Leo. You may have guessed!

Oh hey look what I stumbled across

This can be a very warm and mutually fulfilling relationship. Both of you are romantics at heart and tend to be “in love with love”. You both need and love romantic gestures, the giving and receiving of gifts, etc. Personal appearances and attractiveness is important to both of you as well, and you both are somewhat vain.

Leo is more decisive and very clear about personal preferences and desires, while Libra is more flexible and will compromise graciously in order to please Leo. Leo is more self-absorbed or self-centred that Libra. Of the two of you, Leo is the stronger individual, and the balance of power in your relationship may be somewhat lopsided. However, Libra has a highly developed sense of fairness and equality, and will protest sooner or later if Leo begins to expect obediances all of the time.

Both of you are personable, friendly, and affectionate, with a strong romantic streak, but you are different in many respects also.

Leo is individualistic, proud, and somewhat egotistical, while Libra is more concerned with “us” rather than “me”. Libra is more aware of others’ needs than Leo is, and ore willing to accommodate them. This can be a significant problem for Libra at times ? being too obliging, too eager to please, compromising too much. Being indecisive is also a habit of Libra’s. On the other hand, Leo is naturally rather self-centred, more dominant, certain, and decisive, and may unintentionally take advantage of Libra’s agreeableness. But Libra does have a strong sense of fairness and will resent being the one who give in all of the time.

Wit, intelligence, and an active mind are attributes the two of you share, and in your relationship there will be a focus on communicating, bantering, a lot of verbal give and take. Both of you tend to be the dominant one in any discussion or debate, and you may find yourselves competing with each other in your discussions. This most likely will not be a major problem, but both of you would do well to step back and truly listen to one another.

Neither of you is particularly conventional, nor are you great lovers of rules and formal traditions for their own sake, but Leo is apt to have a much harder time conforming, and may in fact openly scorn or rebel against such limitations. There is apt to be a great deal of change, constant motion, fluctuating circumstances, and disorganisation in Leo’s life, whereas Libra embraces necessary changes and flows with them but doesn’t seem to need to create upsetting and unstable situations all of the time. Libra can help Leo learn how to be true to oneself and one’s own beliefs and nature without needing to always rail against “the establishment” or “the system”.

There is an electric, immediate attraction between the two of you and an element of surprise, discovery, and spontaneity will always infuse your relationship.

Libra stimulates Leo to be more uninhibited, looser, less conventional, and to experiment. Libra can also be unpredictable and changeable toward Leo, and Leo may feel that Libra is not to be relied upon. Libra brings out Leo’s independent or eccentric side. Personal freedom, independence, and individuality are highlighted in your relationship, and sometimes one or both of you feels that there is not enough togetherness, mutual dependency, or emotional closeness.

There is much enthusiasm and spark between you, and your relationship is always changing, always exciting.

Your feelings towards each other change quickly and you often react to each other rather impulsively. When the mood is right, you find each other sexually irresistible, but at other times you get on each other’s nerves. You may feel like you fall in and out of love on a monthly basis! It seems that you are either making love, fighting with each other, or indifferent to each other, and you may sometimes wish for greater constancy. Your domestic life is likely to be very unstable. If you can be flexible and flow with the fluctuating feelings, this relationship can be exciting and fascinating - otherwise your patience will wear thin and you will perceive your relationship as hopelessly unstable and your partner as unreliable and untrustworthy.

Sexual attraction is very strong, but as with other things, one of you is likely to come on too strong to the other and this may be offensive to your partner. There is a driving, compelling, somewhat impersonal quality to your love-making at times.

Leo tends to dominate the sexual expression. Your affairs are seldom static. In physical affection, you are very anxious to please each other. Mirrors, oils, bedroom toys may attract you.

There is a certain air of openness, tolerance, and freedom between you, and you would both encourage one another to seek friendship, positive experiences, and rewarding connections outside of the relationship as well as within it.

Bedroom toys and mirrors? Sign me up.[/quote]

I said there was no mass hypnosis. Meaning they didn’t exert a power over a group of people. I can see where you have read it as my denying an individual can be hypnotized.

I don’t think you’ve gotten to my post where I said I don’t know why I decided to state the side of being free to choose and they are consenting adults. I just have issues with people demonizing another’s belief system. In high school I had a friend, okay an odd friend, she carried with her everything in this HUGE tote bag that held everything she would need if she were swept back in time. Now… I always hoped she was doing this as an eccentric thing, but she was never without that tote and it comforted her.

If I am lost I like the look of the woods that I am in. I may light a fire to make s’more though, thanks for the suggestion.

You would win a Nobel Prize if you disproved the world was static. I would want a dedication for the inspiration for your thesis.

huh, imagine that. " Leo is individualistic, proud, and somewhat egotistical, " Who woulda thought. Makes me want to submit right now.

(horoscope thing was funny)

[CLewis]

Wow - you two are really going all out here…

Don’t worry, I did not ignore that post, in fact I have read into all of the websites you guys have posted.

I definitely agree to a certain extent with October Girl. I think that there are essential truths to live by, and people will find the religion that works for them. Absorb what is useful, yada yada. That is what I am trying to do in my own life, and I’m sure none of you care about my personal beliefs.

Keep one thing in mind: the following is only based on what I have been able to learn. Scientology is extremely secretive, which is actually one of my main issues with the belief system.

However, what is a religion? There appear to be two problems with Scientology: 1) Weird beliefs, which, in a sense, all religions have; and 2) Whether it actually is a religion.

The key thing here is that, no matter what the religion is, whether they demand monetary compensation from you or not, they generally tell you what their basic beliefs are up front. You are encouraged to learn these beliefs and take part in the rituals and celebrations. These beliefs have either been handed down, for free, for generations; or are proposed by a prophet, whose advice you can learn for free. You will see the difference in a moment between a tithe (an amount you give for the church, and is not tied to how much you are permitted to learn) and what Scientology does. (Keep in mind, a tithe is a fixed percentage of income, not a fixed amount regardless of your earnings).

From what I have been researching, Scientology is different. First, the leader was a science-fiction writer who, according to some, was privately a satanist or at least heavily influenced by a close friend who thought he was the anti-Christ (who knows how true that is, but whatever) and Hubbard was vehemently opposed to Christianity. When Scientologist meet people on the street, they claim that you can be a Christian and a Scientologist; it is only later that you learn this is not true. In fact, Scientologists in later stages learn that there is no God. I am not saying that being opposed to Christianity is a bad thing or that Satanism is a bad thing that makes a religion illegitimate; I am just referring a little it to the lying that is done as part of recruitment. I’m sure many religions do similar things. The main point here is that, unlike Jesus, Mohammed, Buddah, etc, he did not spiritually devote his life to this religion. Also, as has been said, the main prophet of each religion in the past has been subjectively regarded as virtuous and moral (regardless of what later adherents to his gospel do); as has already been stated, the main prophet of Scientology, Hubbard, has broken the law in a way that could not be subjectively construed as virtuous.

Unlike other religions, there is no central mass or service and are taught about the beliefs. Instead, all you do is pay money to take courses or have “Audits” or counseling sessions accompanied by an “E-Meter”. In other words, there is a specified price for “levels” of religious instruction. I would love to join Scientology and tell you guys what it is, but I don’t have $200,000 sitting around to get through the levels. I am not saying that these sessions may not help people; however, one thing to consider: how do we know that normal counseling for a lot less money would not work just as effectively?

The other major issue here appears to be that the central beliefs of the religion are not given out - again, there are no religious services. People only find out, after clearing numerous “levels,” the central beliefs. (If I were to write this in a completely unbiased way, I would leave out what their beliefs are, as I am writing about whether this is a legitimate organization or if it is a cult. However, I just want to mention…) People are told the alien Xenu, the evil galactic overlord, put thetans on earth and blew them up in volcanoes with H-bombs. The person is then told that they are not a real soul; in reality, their soul is comprised of hundreds of aliens fighting for control over their body. (At this point, some people literally have emotional breakdowns, and are not permitted mental treatment other than vitamins.) People who reach high levels are said to be unable to get sick, have special powers, etc. (People who have reached these levels have fallen ill, etc.) I mention these only within the context of explaining why, based on what I know thus far, I do not think this is a legitimate religion:

In my view, the fact that people are not told this information up-front, but that everyone is expected to eventually learn it, is a problem with its legitimacy. The Dead Sea Scrolls are not meant for many people’s eyes; however, the hope in Scientology is that every member will eventually learn these truths. Catholics, for example, are specifically instructed with the central beliefs in elementary school; Scientologists, however, follow the religion without ever knowing what their true beliefs are until they have forked out a significant amount of money. You may wonder how these people accept these beliefs; and I will concur that they are, literally, brainwashed; with each level, they learn to accept what Scientology says more and more, until this “secret” doesn’t produce cognitive dissonance. Here are some (biased) descriptions of the levels, and how much they cost: Operation Clambake Presents: OT Levels.

The other practices of the religion are very cult-like. “Cult” is subjective, and people often refer to small, unfamiliar or non-Christian groups as a cult. True cult practices include isolation from those who do not believe in the group, brainwashing, severe emotional manipulation, severe social reprimand for seemingly minor offenses, and any other behavior that you would also categorize under “abusive boyfriend/girlfriend”. Like an abusive relationship, a cult is somewhat subjective; however, people in abusive relationships, as in cults, begin to make excuses for the behavior of their loved one, ignore their gut responses, are controlled into doing things they would not otherwise do, and are subjected to humiliation, coercion, etc. In the same way that people are slowly introduced to an abusive partner and begin to accept the behavior in small increments, people are slowly introduced to a friendly cult which becomes restrictive and ultimately destructive.

Is it a cult? Again, it is subjective, and you can argue either way. The main point is that regardless of what the beliefs of Scientology are, and regardless of how you feel about them, the Church of Scientology appears to be a dangerous organization which uses improper practices, including hypnosis and brainwashing, to manipulate people into its organization and abusive practices to keep them there.

[Digital_Chainsaw]

[quote]Dweezil wrote:
the church is notorious in the actions they will take to silence critics and keep people in the church.
[/quote]

Indeed, like murder:

Lisa McPherson died at the hands of Scientology

Funny and thoughtful posts, Dweezil. Keep them coming.

[majestic900]

[quote]hockechamp14 wrote:
if you download/watch the episode of south park “trapped in the closet” with tom cruise, it reveals all![/quote]

…watch conan or maybe it was kimmel…

[majestic900]

[quote]SWR-1240 wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
You do know christianity was first considered a cult, right?

Was?

Religion scares me, but I’m all for the freedom to choose as long as it doesn’t negatively effect others.

I guess they can all have their good parts and bad parts, but I’ve personally seen more of the bad.[/quote]

yeah, i totally agree…it seems moreso like brainwashing to me-I had to be force-dressed by my sister and dragged to the car by my hair to go to church when little because I thought it was so scary and I disagreed with everything.

I still do, even when reading tons of theology and being in several christian private schools.
thats kinda one of the reasons why it was several.

[majestic900]

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
GhostNtheSystem wrote:
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Those that wish to know the truth and know God know in their hearts what things are of God. Likewise, they know what things are not of God.

“The gentleman in his attitude toward all under heaven, neither favors nor disfavors anyone. He keeps close to whoever is righteous.”

“Do not treat others as you would not wish to be treated”

Confucius, 2000 years before Christ.

[/quote]

yep and there is whole books of quotes (well, I have one book, but Id think there would be more than my one book out there) like that that were said by people before Christ came.
good arguements octobergirl.

[Zap_Branigan]

Just because Christianity can be shitty in no way lends any legitimacy to Scientology.

It should not have non-profit status and its leaders should probably be prosecuted for fraud.