Rousey vs Tate

Training
61

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

Thing is, Tate did have a really good ground game. she trains at Alpha Male. thats uriah faber, chad mendes, joseph benevetez’ camp. All of them are incredible wrestlers. Tate has been wrestling since high school. yet, rousey, aside for 1 or 2 times, rousey dominated her on the ground. your not going to get much better than tate on the ground. [/quote]

Agree. As I said earlier, her ground work was pitiful. She’s usually a grinder. I seriously have no idea what happened there. My bet is the nerves got the best out of her. Rousey got to her mentally.

62

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

Rousey will be that much better. her striking will be better, her wrestling will be even better and she will most likely have other submissions. her chokes will be something fierce, once she gets comfortable with them. We will have to wait and see. if rousey improves, i pick her against cyborg.

her judo and wrestling are just to high notch for cyborg. Olympic medal winner is something cyborg has never dealt with.[/quote]

And Cyborg has a year to improve her grappling. A year.

Think how explosive their fight is going to be :slight_smile:

I really see Cyborg steam rolling Rousey, sorry. Olympian Judokas aren’t that invincible, ya know? As a black belt 1st dan, I used to think I was unbeatable until I got my ass kicked on few occasions by very smart strikers.

By the way I hope Rousey is not relying on the Diaz brothers to improve her striking and footwork. They aren’t the best boxers out there.

63

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
She is almost the chael sonnen of womens mma… some will love her, some will hate her, but everyone will watch her.[/quote]

Lets hope you’re wrong about the Chael Sonnen comparison since he is a cheater in his sport, a criminal in life and may also be a pathological liar. She doesn’t come across as a liar or a criminal, lets keep our fingers crossed about being a cheater.

Unfortunately she was clearly attracted to Chael when he hit on her at an event. Only time I’ve seen her flustered to the point of no words. The group she trains with is not exactly the Osmond Brothers. I see a lot of similarities between Ronda and Marion Jones. Attractive, charismatic, associates with the wrong people.

You may be right that people will want to watch her.[/quote]

As far as the sonnen comparison, obviously I only meant when it comes to promoting fights. I in no way meant she would be a cheater or a criminal, just that she is very good at promoting and people aren’t used to women talking that way. I think that is going to get her really infamous. this is what women need. I loved when rousey was talking about the fight in the ring, after winning. How she didn’t feel bad about what she did. I love that.
[/quote]

Her lack of empathy is another thing I’m a little uncomfortable with about Ronda. To make another comparison; Mike Tyson would talk shit about eating his opponents children before a fight. After he knocked them out he was always right there showing concern. (Granted, if a fighter was unconscious but hadn’t reached canvas yet, they were still fair game as far as Mike was concerned lol) Now I’m not saying Ronda should be less ruthless in the ring but if I saw a little empathy after the fight I’d be more comfortable that she is not another Marion Jones.[/quote]

I think she said that, cause of the trash talking that was done. Tate didn’t think rousey belonged in the ring with her. So rousey had something to prove. Have you ever heard Frank Mir apolagize for breaking Nogeira’s arm? I’ve heard him giggle like a school girl when watching replays. he gets a big kick out of it. If Tate had tapped sooner, that would have been it, but you don’t tapp, thats what you get. Mike tyson, early in his career never bad mouthed anyone. it was only later on that he started all that trash talk.

64

[quote]on edge wrote:
Her lack of empathy is another thing I’m a little uncomfortable with about Ronda. To make another comparison; Mike Tyson would talk shit about eating his opponents children before a fight. After he knocked them out he was always right there showing concern. (Granted, if a fighter was unconscious but hadn’t reached canvas yet, they were still fair game as far as Mike was concerned lol) Now I’m not saying Ronda should be less ruthless in the ring but if I saw a little empathy after the fight I’d be more comfortable that she is not another Marion Jones.[/quote]

I agree. I dislike her lack of empathy but you know, if that’s the image or the impression she wants to create of her, then cool. Sometimes, you’ve got to be different from the others. I’ve read Kaufman might be her challenger next. I’m interested in what sort of shit talk Rousey will be spewing as they prepare for their fight.

65

[quote]rundymc wrote:
http://bjpenn.com/mmanews/2012/03/04/strikeforce-tate-vs-rousey-post-fight-press-conference-video-16183.html

Kaufman speaks at about 3:20.

“I’m working towards my yellow belt in Judo, so look out Ronda” lol[/quote]

Hahaha. Bless her heart.

66

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

Rousey will be that much better. her striking will be better, her wrestling will be even better and she will most likely have other submissions. her chokes will be something fierce, once she gets comfortable with them. We will have to wait and see. if rousey improves, i pick her against cyborg.

her judo and wrestling are just to high notch for cyborg. Olympic medal winner is something cyborg has never dealt with.[/quote]

And Cyborg has a year to improve her grappling. A year.

Think how explosive their fight is going to be :slight_smile:

I really see Cyborg steam rolling Rousey, sorry. Olympian Judokas aren’t that invincible, ya know? As a black belt 1st dan, I used to think I was unbeatable until I got my ass kicked on few occasions by very smart strikers.

By the way I hope Rousey is not relying on the Diaz brothers to improve her striking and footwork. They aren’t the best boxers out there.

[/quote]

Wait a minute now. Are you kidding me or what. I have never seen, not anyone that can stand and beat the diaz brothers. Nobody. lets take Nate, its taken awhile for his boxing to get close to his brothers, but the only fights nate has ever lost, was cause of wrestlers, you stand with him and he will kill you. Just ask donald cerrone.

As far as nick goes, it is well accepted, he has the best boxing in mma. period. In his weight class mind you. Carlos condit had to run his ass off, to get away from nick. bj penn for along time was considered to have the best boxing and we saw what nick did to him.

And i don’t think she was training with the diaz brothers for striking anyways. Id guess for submissions and jui jitsu.

67

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
Wait a minute now. Are you kidding me or what. I have never seen, not anyone that can stand and beat the diaz brothers. Nobody. lets take Nate, its taken awhile for his boxing to get close to his brothers, but the only fights nate has ever lost, was cause of wrestlers, you stand with him and he will kill you. Just ask donald cerrone.

As far as nick goes, it is well accepted, he has the best boxing in mma. period. In his weight class mind you. Carlos condit had to run his ass off, to get away from nick. bj penn for along time was considered to have the best boxing and we saw what nick did to him. [/quote]

I’ll have to disagree with you regarding Nick Diaz having the bext boxing in MMA. I’ve seen better boxers; Junior Dos Santos, Vitor Belfort, Frankie Edgar… put a solid boxer before Nick and he’d have no clue other than stalk, stalk stalk… all in a straight line and poor footwork. Versus Condit, I was laughing while watching him. Nick looked like a total beginner.

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
And i don’t think she was training with the diaz brothers for striking anyways. Id guess for submissions and jui jitsu. [/quote]

Ah, all right. Thanks for clearing that part up.

68

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]peterm533 wrote:

Putting herself in a position to be attacked by Rouseys strongest weapon was suicidal but perhaps Tate felt that she had no choice to escape the punches?

[/quote]

Another ignorant question from me; would it have been ineffective for Tate to do some hip thrusts and/or lunge up and grab for Ronda’s head and neck to pull her in close?[/quote]

At which point exactly?

Once her arm was fully extended, Ronda was controlling her wrist, she was fucked.

The other thing she could have done when she was on her back and Rousey grabbed her arm, was to quickly roll away from Rousey, angling her wrist down - sorry I’m shit at explaining stuff like this unless I demonstrate it on a bed with my victim :wink: Lol.

69

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
Wait a minute now. Are you kidding me or what. I have never seen, not anyone that can stand and beat the diaz brothers. Nobody. lets take Nate, its taken awhile for his boxing to get close to his brothers, but the only fights nate has ever lost, was cause of wrestlers, you stand with him and he will kill you. Just ask donald cerrone.

As far as nick goes, it is well accepted, he has the best boxing in mma. period. In his weight class mind you. Carlos condit had to run his ass off, to get away from nick. bj penn for along time was considered to have the best boxing and we saw what nick did to him. [/quote]

I’ll have to disagree with you regarding Nick Diaz having the bext boxing in MMA. I’ve seen better boxers; Junior Dos Santos, Vitor Belfort, Frankie Edgar… put a solid boxer before Nick and he’d have no clue other than stalk, stalk stalk… all in a straight line and Poor footwork. Versus Condit, I was laughing while watching him. Nick looked like a total beginner.

[quote]roguevampire wrote:
And i don’t think she was training with the diaz brothers for striking anyways. Id guess for submissions and jui jitsu. [/quote]

Ah, all right. Thanks for clearing that part up.[/quote]

ya, I’ve watched videos of Rousey grappling with Nick. Its on youtube, if you want to check it out. I do think that nick won the fight against condit, but, I think nick followed him around to much, especially the last few rounds, without letting his hands go. I don’t think Nick will make that mistake again.

70

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]peterm533 wrote:

Putting herself in a position to be attacked by Rouseys strongest weapon was suicidal but perhaps Tate felt that she had no choice to escape the punches?

[/quote]

Another ignorant question from me; would it have been ineffective for Tate to do some hip thrusts and/or lunge up and grab for Ronda’s head and neck to pull her in close?[/quote]

At which point exactly?

Once her arm was fully extended, Ronda was controlling her wrist, she was fucked.

The other thing she could have done when she was on her back and Rousey grabbed her arm, was to quickly roll away from Rousey, angling her wrist down - sorry I’m shit at explaining stuff like this unless I demonstrate it on a bed with my victim :wink: Lol.

[/quote]

I’m talking about the ground n pound right before Tate rolled over and Rousey went for the arm. When Tate was still on her back, what should she have have done? Obviously she shouldn’t have rolled over. That’s what Ronda wanted her to do and was the sole purpose of her “pounding”.

71

On Edge- I think as you suggested hip thrusts and reaching up to clinch and pull down the body ( unlikely to reach the head and neck)then trying to roll or elbow/knee escape to guard were the better options.

Turning on to her front was a strange tactical -and as it turns out disastrous -decision for a trained fighter with prior knowledge of Rousey’s strengths but it seems that the need to escape the punches to the face was overwhelming.

72

[quote]on edge wrote:
I’m talking about the ground n pound right before Tate rolled over and Rousey went for the arm. When Tate was still on her back, what should she have have done? Obviously she shouldn’t have rolled over. That’s what Ronda wanted her to do and was the sole purpose of her “pounding”.
[/quote]

Ah okay. I see.

Yeah, she could have used some hip thrusts, at least in an attempt to unbalance Rousey. But what if Rousey had then landed on Tate’s chest and gone for a choke? Another thing Tate could have done was to stick one of her knees out to push one of Rousey’s feet away, then throw her other leg across to trap Rousey’s foot, if that makes sense. Then she could have angled her body, without fully turning her back and roll away to get back onto guard. Argh! It’s too technical. I’m shit at explaining stuff like this.

But you know, when you get hit on the face, it’s not easy to think that clearly, expecially when you are in a vulnerable position. There’s so much going on in your head and you have to protect your face at all times if you don’t want the ref to stop the fight.

Rolling over was definitely a big mistake.

73

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Did everyone catch her transition from back to armbar? Sweet…[/quote]

It was. You can catch Ronda’s mother blogging at http://drannmaria.blogspot.com/

Dr. De Mars teaches graduate level statistics, consults (in ethics) and won several Judo world championships. Ronda trained with Jimmy Pedro, who is probably the harshest conditioning coach in Judo (he and Rhadi Ferguson have actually done projects together).

I think Ronda will stick with the weight class, which Cyborg may not be able to get down in weight to reach. Should be interesting. You can catch a lot of Ronda’s matches at http://www.judovision.org/?s=Ronda

Anyway, interesting to watch, glad it wasn’t me getting crunched.

74

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Did everyone catch her transition from back to armbar? Sweet…[/quote]

This fight drags you out of posting purgatory?

This is the one?

WTF?

Bisbing was on TUF. And this is what did it?

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

It took two women rolling around on the floor to get my attention :wink:

75

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
ok - bad officiating

I think the ref could have step in - long before he did.
you can see Rounsey twist the wrist- around and into her own body to hid it
at one point she had the wrist and fist under her armpit- while she was bridging her hips up.
that is kind of more then full extension

a few things I can speak on- dislocated elbows hurt like hell
and take a while to heal hurt more then busted ribs or a dislocated shoulder
just my memory here.
I busted one of them not too badly lets say 6 to 8 weeks so not that bad but
it felt weak for a long time after

I did burst a bursa sack on my right elbow - swelled up like a melon that took a while to go down.

Rounseys- hips are incredible- yes that way too- but more so her ability to hip heist
change postion and generate power and speed
wow.
she did a hip heist that was awesome in her first take down
She also needs to tuck her chin- and work on head movement

as for her topgame its kinda tip top, and her back door escape was pretty smooth too
her guard passing seemed excellent

cant agree more with DN
do not clinch wih a judoka- unless you do ALOT of thai work

I dont think cyborg has the head for grappling- defensively
she move forward forward forward she likes to bang.
and it works for her.

as for ‘juicing’ she is from brazil and for the most part not illegal
and widely available just saying.

while I like rounsey I can live with out the drama
she is a beat but not unbeatable, someone with precision striking and power
and a great ground game can do it.
[/quote]

Thing is, Tate did have a really good ground game. she trains at Alpha Male. thats uriah faber, chad mendes, joseph benevetez’ camp. All of them are incredible wrestlers. Tate has been wrestling since high school. yet, rousey, aside for 1 or 2 times, rousey dominated her on the ground. your not going to get much better than tate on the ground. [/quote]

My understanding is that Tate only trained with Alpha Male for the championship fight against Marlos. She hasn’t come back since.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say Cyborg has a better ground game than Tate. So that fight (w/ Ronda) should be fun.

76

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]roguevampire wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:
Well, now we know bullrushing Miss Rousey is probably not going to end well. We also know she has pretty good back defense. We know her top game is still 5-star for WMMA. We know she can take a couple of hard shots without crumbling.

So onto the Cyborg-Rousey matchup. What does everyone think?

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that Mrs. Santos’ grappling skills aren’t on that level just yet, and based on the standup exchanges in the Carano fight, I’d say Ronda will probably be able to throw or trip her.

So it comes down to:
the 10lbs or more of lean mass she has on Ronda.
how well she can avoid the clinch and strike
whether or not she can capitalize on the top position if and when Rousey fails an armbar.[/quote]

When Cyborg comes back, don’t expect the same dominant female as she once was. Shes going to be under fire now. Once you fail a drug test, all eyes are on you. She won’t be as strong as she once was. But, theres a video of her wrestling Tito ortiz, so its going to be very hard for Rousey to deal with cyborg’s strength. The big question is, how much weaker will cyborg be when she comes back, no longer juiced. [/quote]

There’s also a vid of Rousey wrestling Mousasi. They both did ok given the size and skill difference.

It’ll be interesting to see how much the juice factored into Cyborg’s dominance.[/quote]

There is also a video of her training with Nick Diaz. needless to say, Nick could and did submit her anytime he feels like it. but, im sure she will learn tons from the diaz brothers and at cesar gracies.
[/quote]

She did take Nick down a couple of times, hahah. Nick’s a legit Black Belt though, one of those guys that would do well at Worlds.

They should train together more. Now that Ronda’s single, Nick could totally tap dat.

77

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Did everyone catch her transition from back to armbar? Sweet…[/quote]

No, but these guys gave me a heads up.

Edit: lol, wrong video

78

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

Ah okay. I see.

Yeah, she could have used some hip thrusts, at least in an attempt to unbalance Rousey. But what if Rousey had then landed on Tate’s chest and gone for a choke? Another thing Tate could have done was to stick one of her knees out to push one of Rousey’s feet away, then throw her other leg across to trap Rousey’s foot, if that makes sense. Then she could have angled her body, without fully turning her back and roll away to get back onto guard. Argh! It’s too technical. I’m shit at explaining stuff like this.
[/quote]

There are a couple of problems with that sweep though
-You have to control the arm to prevent your dance partner posting.
-You mess up, and you could end up in a pretty bad position (side full mount, which is, IMO, the best position to pick off an armbar)

Come to think of it, I can’t remember the last time I saw a the basic mount escape in the UFC/SF. Huh. It’s usually wallwalks-backdoor escapes and hip-escapes to half guard… or the aforementioned giving-up-back.

I can understand why the last option is so popular. Sure, being faced with a barrage of punches can unnerve you, but if you do give up the back:
-Provided you don’t get flattened out on your belly, you won’t take the same punishment. The fight turns back into a ‘grappling match’.
-In no-gi, escaping the back is something a lot of people work on. Plus in MMA with the gloves, the threat of the RNC is decreased a little.

My guess is, when Meisha turned and got to her knees, she planned to fall to the side, and never got the chance to. To Ronda’s credit, that transition was beautiful and technically brilliant.

79

Ronda’s mother said it best :

People who were complaining for months that she had no prayer against ?an experienced mixed martial artist? and was only given the title fight because she was pretty and had a twitter account got to shut the hell up for five minutes. That?s good. Of course, after the five minutes were up, the same people who were commenting she couldn’t win this world title were saying well, yeah, but she couldn’t beat some other person.

It’s like Steve Seck told me years ago, even if you won the Olympics, those same people would be saying,

"Yeah, you won an Olympic gold medal, but could you do it again?"

The whole ?judo beats wrestling? or ?wrestling beats judo? argument was not settled, contrary to what some people might think. All this match means is that one person who was a very, very good judo player beat one person with a wrestling background.

80

Rundymc,

I think that you make a very valid point about using traditional escapes in a MMA situation. Perhaps someone
has done a detailed analysis of the number of times the mount has been escaped and how it was achieved.

You may well be right that escape by turtling or giving upo the back is the most successful option but it may also lead to a high number of quick finishes.

I am not so sure that Tate had the strategy you suggest or indeed had any strategy other than escaping punches to the face. Rousey’s finish was OK but an absolutely standard juji gatame entry and finish that an international level judoka could perform in their sleep.