[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Oh, and by the way, the strength mattering a little, the fact that his higher strength (combined with technique) will lead to a much stronger punch makes it matter a little.
[/quote]
Holy crap.
You really do have no idea what you’re writing.
I give up.[/quote]
And you responded to nothing I wrote and are ducking most of what I said.
So it seems like everyone is in agreement that if rhonda gets punched it’s going to be lights out for her? but then that point gets immediately overlooked as if it’s a wrestling match.
[quote]Aggv wrote:
So it seems like everyone is in agreement that if rhonda gets punched it’s going to be lights out for her? but then that point gets immediately overlooked as if it’s a wrestling match. [/quote]
Um…no.
What is agreed upon is that if Floyd lands a flush power shot on the button Ronda is going down, or at least going to get hit a bunch more till she is finally KO’d or TKO’d. Whether or not she can implement an intelligent game plan that prevents Floyd from landing that punch is what is being debated. Nobody is saying that this is a pure grappling/wrestling match. You might want to actually read through the thread.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Listening to Rhonda in that interview, I am decently sure that Rhonda doesn’t even truly believe that she would win. If she stays on her feet enough to try to through a leg kick or two I truly believe the fight would be over within the first minute with Floyd planting a KO punch. If she is in range for an effective look kick she is almost in Floyd punching range and that in and out speed of his would let him tag her hard. [/quote]
You do realize that
A. Floyd has never been kicked in his life
B. Never defended a takedown
C. Has zero experience in any form of combat other than boxing
D. Has no idea how a grappler/mma fighter would approach a fight
E. Literally one solid leg kick and he’d be down
F. This only changes a little bit if he trains for lets say one full camp[/quote]
One solid leg kick?? I kind of doubt that. But also, Rhonda also has seen anyone with a tenth of the boxing ability as Floyd and would really have no way to prepare for it. Rhonda has never been on the receiving end of a truly bad-intentioned punch from a man, not to mention an elite pro boxer.
The saying “Everyone has a plan till they are punched in the mouth” holds true here. Yall are saying Floyd getting kicked or rushed is going to be that “punch in the mouth” that lets Rhonda take him out, I am saying that a literal punch in the mouth would be the pivotal moment that sent Rhonda reeling before she ever got anything going.[/quote]
A. You’ve obviously never been kicked in the leg before.
B. Ronda isn’t going to get hit, start crying and die. Floyd doesn’t have bazookas for fists.
C. Floyd doesn’t even have a good stance to avoid being taken down.
D. This is literally the exact argument all dumb boxing fans use for all of their theoretical fights. Ah naw man no way would GSP beat Sergio Martinez, he’d get lit up before ever getting the Takedown, if he shot in Sergio would punch him like 100 times, GSP has never faced a high level boxer, bla blah blah it’s all bull and you know it.[/quote]
Man vs man is different. Womens chins are not as good when they are tested by a males fist, especially when that fist is from a trained fighter. One or two punches and he will have her totally off her kilter. I have been hit in the leg by a cattle brander before, does that count?? And yes I have also been kicked in the leg but not from anyone overly experienced. How hard do you think Rhonda can kick? I don’t think she is just going to kick his legs totally out from under him with one swoop. That is far more ludicrous than me saying he would knock her out with one punch.[/quote]
I agree that her taking out his leg with a single kick is unlikely, and honestly it would likely not be the best strategy anyhow as a really hard kick would likely be too telegraphic and slow and allow Floyd to avoid it or counter it. But a quick accurate lead leg inside round kick to Floyd’s lead leg would likely land and not open Ronda up to a counter (her left leg is almost certainly longer than Mayweather’s left arm and even if it wasn’t the fact that she should be leaning back and rolling her left shoulder in front of her chin would mean that she would be out of range of Floyd’s counters. Lead leg side kicks to his lead knee would be another very safe and effective strike to use.
If I were game planning as Ronda’s coach I would not be having her seek to take Floyd out with leg kicks. She is not a Muay Thai specialist and the longer she keeps the fight on the feet where Floyd can use his strength (boxing skills, not physical strength), the greater the chances that Floyd can win. Instead I would have her simply use them to spread Floyd’s attention beyond his usual (from the “belt” up target area), frustrate him, slow down his feet (either by causing accumulated damage or by trying to get him to start checking them), and take him out of his comfort zone. Even a couple of quick accurate lead leg round kicks with the top of the foot thrown to the exact same right spot will start to really wear on you and get you thinking about that target. They are also much harder to catch than rear leg power round kicks and don’t force you to square your body to the target at any time.
Once she has him frustrated and either reaching to try to catch the kick, trying to check it, or lunging in to try to hit her with a leaping left hook, then she should jam her way in, get the clinch and do her thing.
Her strategy of trying to crawl at him I think was more of a tongue in cheek comment, but I think would be a bad one and simply shows that she is not much of a strategist and needs a good coach to game plan for her (which isn’t a knock on her, she gets paid to fight after all, not strategize, but it’s also probably why she lost to decidedly in the TUF season against Meisha). If she tried to do that she would likely never catch Floyd before he held her head and punched her silly or at least just cut up her face till the ref stopped it or she lost a lopsided decision.[/quote]
That is a very plausible strategy for Rhonda. And you insinuating at something similar earlier is what swayed my thinking on the likely hood of Rhonda getting a win. With that said, I still think, more often than not, Floyd gets in and counters a leg kick (or Rhonda misses and ends up really open before getting clobbered) with a combo then gets out before getting grabbed (he may do this a couple times), leading to her getting KO’d before she can chop his legs out from under him enough to sufficiently slow him down.
[/quote]
That’s fair. I’d personally say that it’s about even in terms of likely winning percentage, but I don’t object to you saying that Floyd wins more hypothetical matches than Ronda. As long as we can all agree that they both have legitimate chances of winning and aren’t automatically writing Ronda off because she is a female (without taking into account her athletic accomplishments and the stylistic match-up) I don’t have any objections to people picking one fighter as the favorite over the other, regardless of whether that is my pick or not.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Aggv wrote:
So it seems like everyone is in agreement that if rhonda gets punched it’s going to be lights out for her? but then that point gets immediately overlooked as if it’s a wrestling match. [/quote]
Um…no.
What is agreed upon is that if Floyd lands a flush power shot on the button Ronda is going down, or at least going to get hit a bunch more till she is finally KO’d or TKO’d. Whether or not she can implement an intelligent game plan that prevents Floyd from landing that punch is what is being debated. Nobody is saying that this is a pure grappling/wrestling match. You might want to actually read through the thread.[/quote]
To be fair, a lot of peoples arguments, yours and RobertA’s being well thought out exceptions from experienced individuals, have started with “she is just going to grab him because a boxer cant keep from getting grabbed in an MMA fight” with no ponderance of how she would go about getting close enough to grab him without getting lit up by a much faster opponent with exceptional footwork. The hit the ground and crawl over there and grab his leg strategy was one of the more ludicrous things I have ever heard as she would essentially be putting her chin on a tee for him.
Sento, what odds do you give Rhonda of winning (ie X out of 100). I have her at 1 to 5 after reading your gameplan, if she chose to go about it that way.
Edit: Typed this before you responded to my last message.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Aggv wrote:
So it seems like everyone is in agreement that if rhonda gets punched it’s going to be lights out for her? but then that point gets immediately overlooked as if it’s a wrestling match. [/quote]
Um…no.
What is agreed upon is that if Floyd lands a flush power shot on the button Ronda is going down, or at least going to get hit a bunch more till she is finally KO’d or TKO’d. Whether or not she can implement an intelligent game plan that prevents Floyd from landing that punch is what is being debated. Nobody is saying that this is a pure grappling/wrestling match. You might want to actually read through the thread.[/quote]
45 world class fighters have attempted to implement an intelligent game that prevents Floyd from landing punches, i doubt some attention whore with grappling skills is going to be the one to figure it out.
[quote]Aggv wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Aggv wrote:
So it seems like everyone is in agreement that if rhonda gets punched it’s going to be lights out for her? but then that point gets immediately overlooked as if it’s a wrestling match. [/quote]
Um…no.
What is agreed upon is that if Floyd lands a flush power shot on the button Ronda is going down, or at least going to get hit a bunch more till she is finally KO’d or TKO’d. Whether or not she can implement an intelligent game plan that prevents Floyd from landing that punch is what is being debated. Nobody is saying that this is a pure grappling/wrestling match. You might want to actually read through the thread.[/quote]
45 world class fighters have attempted to implement an intelligent game that prevents Floyd from landing punches, i doubt some attention whore with grappling skills is going to be the one to figure it out. [/quote]
again boxing, you see boxing is different than grappling and mma, I know it all looks the same to you or like they’re just hugging each other but I assure you it’s a real thing
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Aggv wrote:
So it seems like everyone is in agreement that if rhonda gets punched it’s going to be lights out for her? but then that point gets immediately overlooked as if it’s a wrestling match. [/quote]
Um…no.
What is agreed upon is that if Floyd lands a flush power shot on the button Ronda is going down, or at least going to get hit a bunch more till she is finally KO’d or TKO’d. Whether or not she can implement an intelligent game plan that prevents Floyd from landing that punch is what is being debated. Nobody is saying that this is a pure grappling/wrestling match. You might want to actually read through the thread.[/quote]
To be fair, a lot of peoples arguments, yours and RobertA’s being well thought out exceptions from experienced individuals, have started with “she is just going to grab him because a boxer cant keep from getting grabbed in an MMA fight” with no ponderance of how she would go about getting close enough to grab him without getting lit up by a much faster opponent with exceptional footwork. The hit the ground and crawl over there and grab his leg strategy was one of the more ludicrous things I have ever heard as she would essentially be putting her chin on a tee for him.
Sento, what odds do you give Rhonda of winning (ie X out of 100). I have her at 1 to 5 after reading your gameplan, if she chose to go about it that way.
Edit: Typed this before you responded to my last message. [/quote]
Yeah, I’d definitely give her better than 1 in 5 chances. I’d honestly say anywhere from 2 to 3 in 5 (so somewhere between 40-60% chances if she implemented a good game plan). She really just has to stay out of boxing range with Floyd to win. If she can keep it in kicking range or get to grappling range she’ll have the advantage, but Floyd is phenomenally good with his hands, so I think he’s also got a good chance at getting the fight to boxing range and winning.
[quote]Aggv wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Aggv wrote:
So it seems like everyone is in agreement that if rhonda gets punched it’s going to be lights out for her? but then that point gets immediately overlooked as if it’s a wrestling match. [/quote]
Um…no.
What is agreed upon is that if Floyd lands a flush power shot on the button Ronda is going down, or at least going to get hit a bunch more till she is finally KO’d or TKO’d. Whether or not she can implement an intelligent game plan that prevents Floyd from landing that punch is what is being debated. Nobody is saying that this is a pure grappling/wrestling match. You might want to actually read through the thread.[/quote]
45 world class fighters have attempted to implement an intelligent game that prevents Floyd from landing punches, i doubt some attention whore with grappling skills is going to be the one to figure it out. [/quote]
And out of those 45 fighters, how many have wound up in clinches with Floyd at some point in their fights or at least in range where they could have clinched with him? Pretty much all of them. So…yeah.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Oh, and by the way, the strength mattering a little, the fact that his higher strength (combined with technique) will lead to a much stronger punch makes it matter a little.
[/quote]
Holy crap.
You really do have no idea what you’re writing.
I give up.[/quote]
And you responded to nothing I wrote and are ducking most of what I said.[/quote]
You- Mayweather is a man and just going to be stronger than Rousey because he’s a man.
Me- He is 20-30lb below “optimal” weight for a man of his height, and besides the difference between Rousey and Mayweather in both weight and height isn’t all that much.
Besides, strength is not relevant to both boxing and grappling, especially when you have two people who are FAR better than one another in their respective talents.
You- 15 year old football players who weigh around 155 are strong. Plus Maweather is a man and just going to be stronger than Rousey because he’s a man.
Me- The 15 year old football players aren’t cutting weight far below their “optimal” weight.
You- Mayweather is a man and just going to be stronger than Rousey because he’s a man.
Me- Fine. Men are generally stronger than women because. However, just because a general principle exists doesn’t mean that it applies to every single example. We have no idea how strong Mayweather really is, and how strong Rousey really is. We cannot merely assume out of hand that Mayweather will be stronger than Rousey.
Am I missing anything?
You are right, Rhonda is probably stronger than some men. Very, very few but some. A man that actually is athletic and trains, not going to happen. Lets just say that FM can bench 135, squat and dead 225. Not much for an elite athlete that trains every day to accomplish. Rhonda would have to be a Master level powerlifter in her division to equal that. I am going to say it is safe to assume that Rhonda has not put the time into becoming a master level powerlifter on top of her MMA training, so I am going to say it is very very very safe to assume that there will be a strength discrepancy in favor of Floyd, and despite protests from several in here which don’t make a lot of sense to me, a lot of that is due solely to being born male and the advantages in muscle mass and skeletal structure that gives us.
So to summarize, both probably train strength about the same amount, Rhonda possibly a little more, however, it is a very safe bet to assume that FM is the stronger of the two because he is a man. You can not like the fact that being a man gives you a huge advantage in strength in 99% of cases when talking about a woman you outweigh by 20lbs, but that doesn’t make it less true. Maybe not PC but not untrue.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
You are right, Rhonda is probably stronger than some men. Very, very few but some. A man that actually is athletic and trains, not going to happen. Lets just say that FM can bench 135, squat and dead 225. Not much for an elite athlete that trains every day to accomplish. Rhonda would have to be a Master level powerlifter in her division to equal that. I am going to say it is safe to assume that Rhonda has not put the time into becoming a master level powerlifter on top of her MMA training, so I am going to say it is very very very safe to assume that there will be a strength discrepancy in favor of Floyd, and despite protests from several in here which don’t make a lot of sense to me, a lot of that is due solely to being born male and the advantages in muscle mass and skeletal structure that gives us.
So to summarize, both probably train strength about the same amount, Rhonda possibly a little more, however, it is a very safe bet to assume that FM is the stronger of the two because he is a man. You can not like the fact that being a man gives you a huge advantage in strength in 99% of cases when talking about a woman you outweigh by 20lbs, but that doesn’t make it less true. Maybe not PC but not untrue. [/quote]
You’re so ignorant it’s just scary. In high school I could outbench my way smaller friend who was a top wrestler, he had mats in his house so we decided to wrestle just for fun and within 30 seconds I was pinned. Weight room strength means dick here. And I think Floyd could maybe bench 135 but I doubt he could squat or dead 225. Another example is BJ Penn. Dudes max is something like 165 on the bench press yet he was able to outgrapple Matt Hughes easily. Matt Hughes is insanely physically strong compared to BJ Penn, he probably can double BJ’s lifts. If powerlifting numbers mattered in grappling nobody would train, they’d just lift weights.
I’m just repeating myself and others, but still:
At no point under any circumstance will Mayweather’s potentially bigger “armwrestle” strength be of ANY use to him.
The moment she has a leg, they clinch etc- it is over.
Quicksand washes over the eagle, the net drags the shark on deck or rather: The bear is being hit by a speeding bulldozer.
Repeat with me:
Strength disparity will play no part in this bout.
His only chance would be to hit her, pref. in the jaw, before she can grab a hold of him.
Even our Penis Prophet doesn’t dispute that.
Facts are:
-Floyd, while quick, is not known for punching power
-his hands are fast, but fast, pure boxing does not work against incoming grapplers. Especially against those who have undergone extensive training in how to close the gap.
-any gender specific disparity in punching power will not be greater than already observed in hundreds of BJJ challenge & early MMA fights
What you guys are saying is that Royce & friends basically were juuust lucky to not meet a more speedy standup fighter during their challenges.
The Gracies have faced not only blackbelts and badassses who were vastly stronger and better trained in striking (by a greater margin than Ronda might suffer vs Floyd!) - these opponents KNEW the BJJ specialists would try to strangle them and had some time to prepare. And they still got choked out.
Not bitter, but sweet:
Grapplers beat boxers who don’t know shit about grappling
Actually, I was trying to argue against the point that Mayweather being stronger than Rousey is of any importance at all.
But I got sucked into a meaningless argument, and one where you are probably right. Yes, Mayweather is probably stronger than Rousey.
So let me return to the point that I wanted to make in the first place.
Why does Mayweather being stronger than Rousey matter at all? Why is it that you and Zecarlo seem to be saying that Mayweather being stronger than Rousey, or more accurately in Zecarlo’s case the fact that Rousey is a woman, going to be the deciding factor in the fight?
I know you didn’t say that it will be the deciding factor, but you bring it up so many times that I can’t help but think that you think it matters to a great degree. Having grappled against brown-belt female judokas who were a good 30lb lighter than me and getting my ass kicked, and knowing that physical strength is not very relevant to boxing, I just cannot understand why you think strength matters, at all.
Some of the replys to this thread are so fucking ignorant its actually unreal. Lets take a guy with more ko power than FM, a lot stronger than FM and lets also add the fact that he actually knows how to grapple, lets see ronda vs him on the ground… - YouTube. FM wouldnt stand a chance in MMA rules, thats a fact, not an opinion, Ronda would be stronger than him in the grappling muscles and flexibility because he doesn’t know what hes doing, also good grappling is all about technique anyway.
[quote]Amiright wrote:
it comes down to who implements their game plan better
[/quote]
Of all the comedy in this thread this has to be the best.
Ronda said her game plan would be to crawl really fast at Floyd (excuse me while I take a moment to chuckle to myself). What’s Floyd’s game plan going to be? To back-peddle around the octagon taking swings at her down around his ankles and shouting “Bitch, I’m a Cupcake fan”?
After going back and watching Mayweather’s fights on youtube I’ve honestly gotta say that those of you who think that Floyd can keep Ronda from getting him in the clinch more times than not are not thinking rationally. Of all the fights that I watched, there wasn’t a single one where Floud didn’t end up in a clinch within the first round. Against Mosely he got clinched 7 times and there were two more opportunities where he could have been clinched (proximity wise) on top of that. And that is the first round! Not well into the fight when both fighters are tired.
He also pretty much always stands at a range where his lead leg could be kicked simply by Ronda just picking up her leg and kicking it (she wouldn’t even need to slide up her rear leg or step and slide to be in range). She could kick his lead leg all night long and he would be unable to do anything about it. That is the range boxing generally occurs in though and like I said before, Floyd’s sense of distance is boxing specific. Against kicks the “safe” range is further than he would be comfortable being at, and he would have no effective weapons if he stayed out of range of Ronda’s kicks.
13 times in round 1 vs Hatton. 13! In round 1! But some of you guys think that Ronda won’t be able to get in even once.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
13 times in round 1 vs Hatton. 13! In round 1! But some of you guys think that Ronda won’t be able to get in even once. [/quote]
In fairness though, he knows he doesn’t need to avoid a takedown. So getting tangled up in boxing isn’t really comparable. And of course his lead leg is in kicking range, cos there is no kicking to worry about.
I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you in general on this topic. I just think true comparison to him getting caught in a boxing clinch isn’t really fair, cos he doesn’t have any real reason to avoid a boxin clinch.
[quote]Kirks wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
13 times in round 1 vs Hatton. 13! In round 1! But some of you guys think that Ronda won’t be able to get in even once. [/quote]
In fairness though, he knows he doesn’t need to avoid a takedown. So getting tangled up in boxing isn’t really comparable. And of course his lead leg is in kicking range, cos there is no kicking to worry about.
I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you in general on this topic. I just think true comparison to him getting caught in a boxing clinch isn’t really fair, cos he doesn’t have any real reason to avoid a boxin clinch. [/quote]
True, but what makes anyone think then that he could figure out how to defend getting clinched on the spot in a MMA fight? His entire life he has never had to learn to avoid or defend against the clinch because his sport has desensitized him of the notion that clinching is a dangerous position. It takes many intensive hours of training to learn clinch defense and takedown defense, yet people think purely because he’s a good boxer and has fast hands that this means he’ll just magically be able to pull solid clinch defense out of a hat and be able to override his boxing conditioning (his habits, not his cardio).
Don’t you think he didn’t want to get into that close range against Hatton? Knowing that Hatton had a shorter reach and likes to pound the body? Yet he got clinched 13 times in the first round. And that was dealing with strikes that he is used to seeing and defending. What’s he gonna do against kicks, which he has never seen before, will attack him in targets that he is totally unaccustomed to protecting, and will hit him where he is used to being at a safe range? What’s he going to do if Ronda just jams in (arms protecting her chin so she can’t get effectively hit in the head) and just smashes him up against the fence (which is quite different from the ropes if you’ve ever been against both)?
My prediction is that he would get frustrated and start to go into survival mode fairly quickly. Hmmm, and what do boxers do when they are getting overwhelmed/in trouble and need to stop getting hit? Oh, that’s right, they tie up the opponent’s limbs/clinch. Guess what that’s going to lead to.