Rousey vs Mayweather in MMA Fight

Training
101

[quote]Robert A wrote:
jbpick86,

Just so I am clear; how much of what you are writing is hyperbole and how much do you mean in a literal sense? I am fine with you using hyperbole to make your points, I am just having all kinds of trouble correlating some of the things you seem to feel are obvious truths with my experiences over the last 20 plus years.

For instance:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
You cannot cover and block effectively at all with those small mma gloves.
[/quote]

This seems to indicate that you would call bullshit on anyone claiming that they blocked a punch in an MMA match, in training with MMA or similar sized gloves, or perhaps by logic with no gloves at all.

I am pretty sure this forum is loaded with people who have blocked punches under those circumstances. I have used covers, angles, and blocks with small gloves and bare handed in training, and bare handed outside of training. Many of the folks who have done so train extensively, or nearly exclusively, in western boxing.

Regards,

Robert A [/quote]

I am not saying that punches cant be blocked. I should have put an “as effectively” because I meant that as a comparison to traditional boxing gloves. A female MMA caliber striker against and Elite male boxer simply cannot cover up enough to not allow one or two hard punches sneak through and then she will start to open up as he she gets wobbly and he will put her down then.

And to the magic boxing skills, can you tell me what magic judo skills will let grab hold of someone so much faster. If she does manage to grab one hand she is about to get rocked with the next then the one she grabbed is probably going to put her down as she is reeling.

I am fully aware that grappling is by far the more effective discipline to boxing in mma. Not arguing that point. But at some point, the sheer difference in strength, speed, and athleticism cannot be overcome simply by being an elite grappler vs an elite boxer.

102

I mean watch the Tate-Rousey fight. If she cant block any better than that against a charging flailing Tate, what would Mayweather do to her.

103

More of the same old nonsense.

Tate-Rousey was an MMA fight were two MMA gals fought under the pretext they can dominate the other in any MMA distance.
As of late, Rousey is pretty confident in her MMA hands vs other MMA fighters in MMA fights.
Also MMA.

For a blueprint, watch Shinya Aoki and extrapolate using UFC 1-3 tapes.
Old Gracie vids work, too. Supertechnical, not very explosive, skinny dudes vs all kinds of strikers.

whats next in the parrot rotation?
Ah, yes, the penis argument…

104

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Doesn’t have to be a powerlifter, most 15 year old football players will total elite in her division. It is only a 703lb total. Not exactly male powerlifting numbers. I don’t think you have even a basic understanding of the sheer strength difference in men and women. Especially when you factor in a size difference of 20lbs.[/quote]

As far as I am aware, 15 year old football players are not cutting 20-30lb down from their natural weight.

Again, you cannot make an assumption that Mayweather will just be incredibly stronger than Rousey, because “he’s a man dude!”

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
As you said, wouldn’t matter as much when it came to grappling, although it will matter some[/quote]

No, it won’t.

It really, really, won’t.

Unless you are SIGNIFICANTLY stronger and larger than the other fellow, strength is irrelevant.

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
She cannot block good enough to stop the barrage of punches that would come her way, she has almost certainly never felt a punch as strong as a hard jab from Mayweather and she would instantly be reeling. How is this even a discussion amongst otherwise reasonable people? She has absolutely no physical tools adequate enough to ever get close enough to him to make her judo and superior grappling even a factor because he is to fast and punches to hard. [/quote]

That could certainly be the case. Just, for the love of God, drop the whole "Oh, he cannot lose because he’s a man and going to be stronger than her, because he’s a man. It’s nonsensical and shows little understanding of both boxing and grappling.

105

Schwarzfahrer said:
Bottom line: As long as she doesn’t box with Floyd, she’ll be fine.
There are NO boxing techniques known that work well against a grappler coming in who wants to clinch or goes low.

Uppercut?

106

In theory, you could use almost any strike to stop someone from getting close.

The uppercut is a fine punch.
But its track record vs grapplers in serious MMA fights is miles behind solid sprawls, counter wrestling, clinchwork etc.
If it worked well, MMA-Strikers wouldn’t have to practise so hard on these.

As for someone who’s never even tried knocking out incoming grapplers…I’d say the chances of a lucky uppercut are rather low.

107

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:
jbpick86,

Just so I am clear; how much of what you are writing is hyperbole and how much do you mean in a literal sense? I am fine with you using hyperbole to make your points, I am just having all kinds of trouble correlating some of the things you seem to feel are obvious truths with my experiences over the last 20 plus years.

For instance:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
You cannot cover and block effectively at all with those small mma gloves.
[/quote]

This seems to indicate that you would call bullshit on anyone claiming that they blocked a punch in an MMA match, in training with MMA or similar sized gloves, or perhaps by logic with no gloves at all.

I am pretty sure this forum is loaded with people who have blocked punches under those circumstances. I have used covers, angles, and blocks with small gloves and bare handed in training, and bare handed outside of training. Many of the folks who have done so train extensively, or nearly exclusively, in western boxing.

Regards,

Robert A [/quote]

I am not saying that punches cant be blocked. I should have put an “as effectively” because I meant that as a comparison to traditional boxing gloves. A female MMA caliber striker against and Elite male boxer simply cannot cover up enough to not allow one or two hard punches sneak through and then she will start to open up as he she gets wobbly and he will put her down then.
[/quote]

Well, I have personally witnessed a zero level “MMA”/combatives/martial artist manage to clinch with Golden Gloves level amateur boxers repeatedly. I was the one doing it. I was also working with a disadvantage in reach, weight, and total training time in martial arts. I was not always successful, but I have done it enough to say chances of success are statistically significant.

I don’t believe I referenced magic anything so I am at a bit of a loss here. If you are responding to the “handfighting” comment by Scharzfahrer I cannot answer for him, but I will tell you how I read his comment. I took the “handfighting”/grab the lead to be any type of contact/slap/clear/grab that moves the guard. There are a bunch of striking/“hand fighting” entries into established clinches that work pretty damn well.

I will also state that much of what makes an elite boxer so damn impressive and dangerous is their ability to shift their weight and momentum into accurate punches and to deliver those punches at the best angles. Even a half assed clinch can turn sharp strikes into arm punches if the striker isn’t familiar with how to break and hit or with striking from a clinch.

[quote]
I am fully aware that grappling is by far the more effective discipline to boxing in mma. Not arguing that point. But at some point, the sheer difference in strength, speed, and athleticism cannot be overcome simply by being an elite grappler vs an elite boxer. [/quote]
I would not really say that. At this point one dimensional fighters do not last long. The strikers need enough grappling to avoid getting floored and to not get killed if they go down and the grapplers need enough striking to survive missing takedown attempts and to not get plunked in a clinch or when not actively going for a takedown.

In absolute terms size and strength can and do compensate for technical ability. The reverse is also true. I am not calling it either way, I am stating that both have ways to win that are plausible. I think Mayweather has such a command of angles and hitting that if an MMA fighter spots him a considerable amount of size/strength he could be devastating even fighting under MMA rules. I also think that a much smaller/weaker grappler with some MMA cross training in striking, but with legit international judo, has a fair chance of getting it to the floor.

In either a clinch or on the ground someone with damn little training can be a fish against a much smaller, but prepared, fighter. Of course if it is a boxing match and a ref is enforcing the rules a literal boy who is trained can absolutely mug a much bigger fighter who can’t box. Stories about accomplished 12 year olds completely owning novice teenagers new to sparring are common for a reason.

Regards,

Robert A

108

[quote]Bod-of-Phwoar wrote:
Schwarzfahrer said:
Bottom line: As long as she doesn’t box with Floyd, she’ll be fine.
There are NO boxing techniques known that work well against a grappler coming in who wants to clinch or goes low.

Uppercut?[/quote]

Footwork and angles is my suggestion. IF you can own the angle and not be in front of your man you can take opportunities to land shots as they come. I am not talking about circling away and flicking jabs, but being able to so control space that you are not in front of the grappler.

Most of the ways to get someone to the ground involve entries that move straight forward. Stepping off that line, scoring, and cutting another angle away work even better against someone who can’t box/kickbox than against someone who can. A good stiff jab, and the ability to crack with either hand can allow you to take someone apart. If you add low kicks, like Sento has mentioned, than you are even more of a buzz saw.

It isn’t just uppercut. It is; if he moves into you slide off line to the right or left and hit with a 1, 2, or 3. Throw another jab and get offline again, repeat. If he stands still, circle or jolt him with a hard jab. If he backs up punish his legs with a kick (or if he backs up while you are landing punches). Let him get frustrated and hurt. Every time he moves, he pays for it, on the chin, the temple, the nose, the liver, or under the sternum. 'Course if you fuck that up than maybe he (or she) catches you coming in and either level changes and gets a leg(s) or can crash through your guard and get a clinch. Now you can’t get your weight into a strike, and the floor is coming up at you.

For the grappler it reads like; if he comes straight in level change to a single or double. If he backs up you can tackle/bull in, crash and try to clinch, or circle and cut off the ring. If your man is moving backwards his ability to injure you when he lands is reduced. Any time you clinch, keep him off balance so he can’t get his bodyweight into strikes. IF he does manage a big shift, feel it and use it to take him off balance or to the ground. Keep your chin and temples covered and stay conscious. You only need to attach and then grind your way to improved positions. Of course, if you fuck this up you get hurt. Which isn’t so bad, but the pain makes you a little less sharp, and now you’re injured. Soon it seems natural to shoot from too far out, or charge in reaching with your arms like a second best Borris Karlof. Then your legs buckle, and things blur…

Regards,

Robert A

109

I just realized this is a wonderful thread- what would my old religion teacher tell us boys?
“Christians can only win: Either there’s a heaven, so that’s a win. Or there is no god- no harm done believing.”

If Ronda rips off Mayweather’s arm- told you suckers!
If Mayweather miraculously lights up Rousey (using the secret strike that’s too lethal for championship boxing, no doubt)- it might dawn on me:
Holy Fuck, I, too, am a penis bearer, I’m awesome by default!

110

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
I just realized this is a wonderful thread- what would my old religion teacher tell us boys?
“Christians can only win: Either there’s a heaven, so that’s a win. Or there is no god- no harm done believing.”

If Ronda rips off Mayweather’s arm- told you suckers!
If Mayweather miraculously lights up Rousey (using the secret strike that’s too lethal for championship boxing, no doubt)- it might dawn on me:
Holy Fuck, I, too, am a penis bearer, I’m awesome by default!

[/quote]

I feel like I may have been contributing to the noise rather than good signal in my posts and really I should try for better. I think my hang up with this isn’t the actual proposed fight, but the idea that size/gender is so damning. I simply don’t agree that the implications of that are true.

Side note: Do you remember that German mare nipping at other mares term you said described Rousey? I liked it, but I forgot.

Regards,

Robert A

111

Nah, reading you horsing around is always a pleasure.
Maybe I come off as mule-stubborn, I actually love it when I’m proven wrong- but I need arguments with some horse power.

Imagine the nickering if someone wrote that a Tae Kwon Do Master will surely knock out Floyd, after all, he has longer range and kicks like a horse. Reality has thankfully closed that stable door.

The word you’re searching for is “Stuttenbissigkeit” [noun], as in “she is stutenbissig” [adj. “Shtoo-ten-bee-sig”]
A snappy mare, basically.

112

Btw, Robert, could you expand on your tussle with that Golden GLoves guy?
Such cross sparring experiences are always interesting to read.

An older guy I know recently told me how back in his day, a local boxing club challenged the local wrestlers behind a disco.
This was done in a more or less orderly fashion, no knives, deaththreats, just a few pairings dishing it out. (it was in 70s Germany after all)
It went like this:
The wrestler landed on top, then some humping occured.
The boxers yapped afterwards of course, they were kinda holding back, but generally accepted they were being dominated.

[sidenote: What is, from a psycho-sociological pov, interesting about submission fighting is that it added -fucking late btw, catch wrestling don’t count- another compley layer of nonlethal duel that is becoming generally accepted.
Back then, just holding was enough -as it is with all kinds of animals, dogs for instance.
This is some major martial evolution, effectivness or not.]

113

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
She would never lay a hand on him before he rolled her eyes back. I cant feature any approach that she makes that doesn’t get skirted and counterpunched. God forbid you give him 6 months to train. Can someone give me a plausible explanation of how she would actually get to one of his legs, proceed to eat punches harder than any she has ever felt from an elite boxer while trying to take him down if she does get there, and not end up crumpling under the barrage that would ensue as she tried to grapple him?[/quote]
Roy Jones vs Royce Gracie? Similar idea and we all know what the result would be. Roy would be vastly more athletic but he’d still lose. You dorks sound like people trying to argue that batman would beat superman.[/quote]
Not similar at all. Royce trained his entire life for a moment like that whereas Rousey NEVER has. She has never trained to close the distance, clinch and take down a man anywhere near Floyd’s ability or even a man in general under mma-like circumstances.

People keep talking about Floyd’s nonexistent grappling but this is mma, not a Judo match. It starts out exactly where Floyd wants, not Rousey.

There is video of her training with Mousasi and it looks like he finds her attempts at fighting him amusing and even boring. Rousey does look frustrated though. Sure, he is bigger than Floyd, and Rousey, but she is an Olympic Judoka should it really have been that easy? [/quote]
Mousasi is a trained grappler and even outgrappled Hector Lombard (he was an olympic judoka) horrible comparison. And no Royce Gracie wasn’t training his entire life to close the distance and take guys down. The Gracie clan doesn’t include much in the way of takedowns unless we’re counting Rener and that bunch (I think they were state champs in HS) Royce had awful TD’s.[/quote]
Did Royce tell you that? You do know his father challenged Joe Louis? You do know that Carlson trained with boxers? You do know that Royce was doing challenge matches as a teen? You do know that the Gracies’ original intent with BJJ was to win a real fight, you know, with punches, and not a grappling match? So the idea that Royce’s training was not directed at the idea of overcoming an opponent who is trying to punch your face is pure ignorance.

BTW, I know Royce and I know how he expects his students to train. There is a heavy emphasis on closing the distance and clinching.

The Mousasi/Lombard comparison is irrelevant as that was an mma match, not grappling as it was with Rousey and Mousasi. Had the male bronze medal winner at a similar weight from the same Olympics as Rousey grappled with Mousasi the same way she was then Mousasi would have been thrown with ease.

114

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Rousey is skilled at taking women down. Women who have nowhere the ability of Floyd. I don’t see how what men can do and have done in the UFC somehow translates to a woman. [/quote]

More like women who have light years more grappling skill, and takedown defense than Floyd. You are either trolling or suffering from severe delusions of chauvinism if you think that Ronda wouldn’t tool Floyd if she got a hold of him. [/quote]
That isn’t what we are arguing about; it’s a question of will she even get the opportunity to get a hold of him.

115

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
OK, let me rejoin the thread because of the children.

what have:
Chuck vs Tito (thank you jpick)
Mousasi vs Ronda (thank you zecarlo)

in common with:
Ronda vs Mayweather
?

Nothing.
the above feature all ELITE MMA fighters, while Mayweather might be the world’s most untalented grappler.

Anybody who has grappled in his life before knows that a complete novice has no clue how to apply his strength.
There must be a HUGE gap in physical power -bigger than in Mayweather-Rousey btw- for a big, muscular novice to hold his own for a minute or two against an experienced grappler.
On the other side, an expert sometimes doesn’t feel particularly strong outside the mat. But when rolling, his use of leverage and position will make him comfortably manipulate bigger opponents.

So it all comes down to wether Mayweather can knock Ronda out as she comes in- as some here claim
eyeroll

scenario 1
Mayweather attacks aggressively
a thankful Ronda shoots, its over in 15 seconds max.

scenario 2
Mayweather is defensive, feints, does some airjabs etc.
Ronda has to close the gap using one of ~1.2 Mio techniques that have proven to be effective.
She can use kicks, as Sento wrote.
She can pretty much lower her head and charge and comfortably take a dive if it gets tricky. Mayweather cannot follow up. This is time tested.
She can set up fake punches which will make Mayweather’s brain work-it’s his specialty after all, grab his lead hand- he’s not used to this, she’s handfighting for 20 years…etc …then go for the clinch.
…

Bottom line: As long as she doesn’t box with Floyd, she’ll be fine.
There are NO boxing techniques known that work well against a grappler coming in who wants to clinch or goes low.
90% of takedown and clinch defense involves some kind of knowledge of Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, if it’s not an outright dodge.
The rest is a mixup that still requires knowhow.
A pure boxer not only has zero knowledge about all that, Floyd’s clinching (“Ronda, here, have some double underhooks”) and evasive go-to-movements (“I’ll lean back so you can grab my skinny legs better”) would work wonderfully against him.

[b]If you know these secret boxing techniques, please let us know. You’d change martial arts!

PLEASE, TELL US![/b][/quote]
A. Tell us how good a female Judoka’s double leg TD is. I’m sure she practiced it for years. Combine that with the fact that women are faster and more powerful than men and I’m sure she could take down Ben Askren…oh wait.
B. Tell us how all of the anecdotal evidence you provide, which may be true, applies to women vs men since everything you mentioned was man vs man?

116

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Doesn’t have to be a powerlifter, most 15 year old football players will total elite in her division. It is only a 703lb total. Not exactly male powerlifting numbers. I don’t think you have even a basic understanding of the sheer strength difference in men and women. Especially when you factor in a size difference of 20lbs.[/quote]

As far as I am aware, 15 year old football players are not cutting 20-30lb down from their natural weight.

Again, you cannot make an assumption that Mayweather will just be incredibly stronger than Rousey, because “he’s a man dude!”
[/quote]

So you are really going to hold on to the just because she is a woman she isn’t weaker argument. Dude, believe what you want about who would win, I still say that the colossal difference in foot work and the speed to work those angles dominantly will keep Mayweather away from her takedowns and the slim margin of error for her(she eats one semi-solid punch and she is going to have the fireworks going off in her eyes) creates a situation where she almost can’t win. With that said, "Because he is a man dude, that by the way weighs 20lbs heavier, does more than likely make him signigicantly stronger as most untrained 155lb males would be as strong if not stronger than Rhonda. That’s not really my opinion, its the reason why elite womens powerlifters would only be lower middle of the pack compared to male lifters. It is not sexist to state a simple fact of nature.

117

I mean think what you want about technique vs technique and who will win. You may be right. But the fact that you will even question whether or not there will be a significant strength difference between a 155lb trained male boxer and a 135lb trained female mma fighter makes me question your insight on most things regarding this issue.

118

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
A. Tell us how good a female Judoka’s double leg TD is. I’m sure she practiced it for years. Combine that with the fact that women are faster and more powerful than men and I’m sure she could take down Ben Askren…oh wait.
B. Tell us how all of the anecdotal evidence you provide, which may be true, applies to women vs men since everything you mentioned was man vs man? [/quote]

A. Given that she’s doing MMA professionally for a few years now, yes, I’d bet her double leg is pretty good?

Ben Akren is AN ELITE WRESTLER AND ELITE MMA ATHLETE

How good is Floyd’s TDD? - Right, its N O N E X I S T A N T

B: Funny anecdote from yesterday.
I was talking to a friend who participated in a grappling tourney just this weekend. he told me how impressed he was with a female member of his gym, a former (pro? i dunno) judoka, who won her class.
She recently even legitimitely submitted his trainer (a heavier, pro MMA athlete, not unknown in Germany).

A penis may be awesome, but Floyd vs Ronda is not a man vs a woman.
It is a dilletant vs a woman.

119

I’m totally gonna use “stuttenbissigkeit” next time my old lady is nagging. If you could give me a new German word for every time she nags I’ll be fluent in no time.

This thread is awesome lol

120

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
She would never lay a hand on him before he rolled her eyes back. I cant feature any approach that she makes that doesn’t get skirted and counterpunched. God forbid you give him 6 months to train. Can someone give me a plausible explanation of how she would actually get to one of his legs, proceed to eat punches harder than any she has ever felt from an elite boxer while trying to take him down if she does get there, and not end up crumpling under the barrage that would ensue as she tried to grapple him?[/quote]
Roy Jones vs Royce Gracie? Similar idea and we all know what the result would be. Roy would be vastly more athletic but he’d still lose. You dorks sound like people trying to argue that batman would beat superman.[/quote]
Not similar at all. Royce trained his entire life for a moment like that whereas Rousey NEVER has. She has never trained to close the distance, clinch and take down a man anywhere near Floyd’s ability or even a man in general under mma-like circumstances.

People keep talking about Floyd’s nonexistent grappling but this is mma, not a Judo match. It starts out exactly where Floyd wants, not Rousey.

There is video of her training with Mousasi and it looks like he finds her attempts at fighting him amusing and even boring. Rousey does look frustrated though. Sure, he is bigger than Floyd, and Rousey, but she is an Olympic Judoka should it really have been that easy? [/quote]
Mousasi is a trained grappler and even outgrappled Hector Lombard (he was an olympic judoka) horrible comparison. And no Royce Gracie wasn’t training his entire life to close the distance and take guys down. The Gracie clan doesn’t include much in the way of takedowns unless we’re counting Rener and that bunch (I think they were state champs in HS) Royce had awful TD’s.[/quote]
Did Royce tell you that? You do know his father challenged Joe Louis? You do know that Carlson trained with boxers? You do know that Royce was doing challenge matches as a teen? You do know that the Gracies’ original intent with BJJ was to win a real fight, you know, with punches, and not a grappling match? So the idea that Royce’s training was not directed at the idea of overcoming an opponent who is trying to punch your face is pure ignorance.

BTW, I know Royce and I know how he expects his students to train. There is a heavy emphasis on closing the distance and clinching.

The Mousasi/Lombard comparison is irrelevant as that was an mma match, not grappling as it was with Rousey and Mousasi. Had the male bronze medal winner at a similar weight from the same Olympics as Rousey grappled with Mousasi the same way she was then Mousasi would have been thrown with ease. [/quote]
Yes I know but they weren’t working on super secret boxing takedown techniques, have you ever even watched a gracie fight? I don’t think you have, It’s usually hands at waist, karate front kick, repeat repeat duck and dive, pull guard or get a single leg, submit. You nerds act like Floyd is sonic the hedgegog or something or Goku and Ronda would be running after air the whole time. Floyd doesn’t move at the speed of light and she could and more than likely would get a hold of him.