you’re fucking stupid if you think rhonda would be beat floyd in a fight. Any type of fight, unless she uses a gun.
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
Uhhh no, it’s the same shit every boxer says, "before he (in this case she) gets me down I’ll have lit them up with my super fast hands. [/quote]
In this case “she” is the most relevant variable. If it were “he” then it’s a different story.
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]Aggv wrote:
If serena williams could avoid Nadal’s serve she might be able to beat him in a tennis match. Unfortunately for her, serving is part of the game… [/quote]
Terrible comparison as Nadal and Serna you know compete in the same sport. This isn’t Rhonda vs Urijah Faber or Jose Aldo, it’s Rhonda against a boxer who has zero grappling experience or ability.[/quote]
And mma starts on the feet and striking is allowed.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
Uhhh no, it’s the same shit every boxer says, "before he (in this case she) gets me down I’ll have lit them up with my super fast hands. [/quote]
In this case “she” is the most relevant variable. If it were “he” then it’s a different story. [/quote]
So the simple fact that she’s a woman is why she’s going to lose?
The sheer difference in strength will be such that Mayweather can knock Rousey out with a single blow even if Rousey covers her face with her arms?
Even though Rousey literally just having to get near Mayweather is enough to beat him, simply because Mayweather has no grappling experience while Rousey is a Olympic level judoka?
Oh man.
[quote]Aggv wrote:
you’re fucking stupid if you think rhonda would be beat floyd in a fight. Any type of fight, unless she uses a gun. [/quote]
you’re fucking stupid if you don’t understand the advantage a grappler has over a striker with zero grappling experience
[quote]dronesjr wrote:
I think a large proportion MMA fans seriously underestimate the striking ability of pro boxers, the degree to which Mayweather has achieved mastery of striking and in my opinion the degree to which absolute excellence in striking will in 99% of possible outcomes totally and unequivocally overrule Roussey’s advantage in other areas [/quote]
I don’t think people are underestimating Mayweather’s boxing skills. If we were talking about a boxing or even Muay Thai fight Floyd wins pretty much every time as then the winner will always be decided on who can out strike who. But we’re talking about MMA where grappling plays a large part in who wins.
To the degree that Floyd is a better boxer than Ronda, he is at an even greater disadvantage when it comes to grappling skill (zero in fact). Roussey at least trains boxing while Floyd doesn’t train grappling AT ALL. Nor does he train kicking or defending kicks, nor does he train clinch fighting.
Nobody is arguing that if Ronda is stupid enough to try to KO or out strike Floyd that she will lose, big time! People are simply pointing out that if she can close the distance, Floyd is done. Of course all fights come down to who can better execute a solid game plan come fight night.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
You aren’t giving enough credit to Ronda’s Judo skills. She is an Olympic Bronze medalist, and Silver medalist in the World Championships, that means that out of all of the women in the entire world (many of whom have been doing Judo everyday for their entire lives, only 1-2 could beat her. She also won the Gold in several other highly competitive Judo competitions. Floyd is a white belt at grappling, I guarantee that Ronda wipes the floor with him and armbars him every time they grapple. Saying that bigger stronger trained grapplers get the better of her is a moot point.[/quote]
Her Judo skills and athleticism are measured against women. Her Judo training was geared toward Judo, not a anything resembling a real fight. And it is quite possible that even if it ended up on the ground he could hurt her with punches. Also, if she leads with a leg kick she will definitely get KOed. She is not Hoost or Aerts. One more thing, it’s not bigger, stronger trained grapplers that beat her but simply male grapplers. I can say with 100% assuredness that men lighter than she is beat her on the mat. I would put a male purple belt mundial champ at 125 pounds against her and not be surprised when he wins. [/quote]
Seriously? You are comparing a pure boxer with absolutely zero grappling experience or knowledge to a purple belt Mundial champ? You must think that winning the Mundials at purple belt requires zero skill or deserves zero respect if you are comparing Floyd’s chances of beating Ronda in a grappling match to a purple belt Mundial champ’s chances of beating Ronda in a grappling match.
Explain how leading with a leg kick equals sure fire KO. I think we’d both agree that in such a fight Floyd is going to want to keep Ronda at the end of his punches to avoid getting clinched, right? That is going to mean that Ronda will be in range to kick Floyd in the legs (especially lead leg/inside leg kick to Floyd’s lead leg). Sure, that is not a KO strike, but seeing as Mayweather is completely unaccustomed to being kicked in the legs it’s only going to take a couple before he’s going to start trying to shin block them (which again puts him on one foot and nullifies his punching power and footwork speed. Once she can get him to do that, just fake it and jam her way into the clinch.[/quote]
What I’m saying is that everyone talks up her bronze medal and athleticism but that was all measured against other women. No matter how fast she tries to close the distance it will still be slower than a man doing the same and, it will be slower than a man who wouldn’t even be considered a great athlete. The gap between great female athlete and great male athlete is big. It’s not like she is almost as fast as her male equivalent but rather she isn’t even close. Ronda will appear to be moving in slow motion to PBF.
Her leg kick will be so slow relative to PBF’s punching speed, reaction time and reflexes that he will KO her before her kick is half way there. Remember, this is an mma match so even if he doesn’t have a lot of time to train for specific techniques he would know what his opponent is allowed to do so it’s not like she has the element of surprise. He also has a reach advantage so it’s not like she is going to be that far away when she kicks. [/quote]
We are talking about someone who has never dealt with leg kicks, meaning that:
- he won’t recognize the kick until late in the execution (if at all before it hits him)
- his legs will be totally unconditioned to taking such kicks
- he will not have developed the proper neuromuscular reactions to allow him to defend against leg kicks
What this means is that although Ronda may not be Buakaw or Bill Wallace, her kicks will likely still be fast enough to land on Floyd. Also a lead leg round kick to the inner thigh is going to give Ronda a reach advantage over Floyd, especially if she lands it with the top of the foot (which would be a bad idea against a good Thai fighter, but is relatively safe against a boxer). It will also put her head out of harm’s way from his hands. Sure he might start lifting his leg to check them eventually, but again that puts him on one foot which is going to take the power out of his punches and make using his footwork to avoid an aggressive covered close (jam) by Ronda much more difficult.
She would likely also study his fights and notice that he likes to shoulder roll straight rights and then come back with a counter. So she could throw a right hand directly into a rear leg round kick (purposely coming short on the right hand) which is going to result in the leg kick landing solid without any chance for Floyd to check it and again keeping Ronda out of reach of Floyd’s counter (if he even throws it). The thing you have to remember is that defensive techniques must be executed in the correct timing relative to the speed the oncoming strike is thrown. So even if Ronda’s punches don’t come as fast as the ones Floyd is used to he still has to correctly time his defensive maneuvers.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]dronesjr wrote:
I think a large proportion MMA fans seriously underestimate the striking ability of pro boxers, the degree to which Mayweather has achieved mastery of striking and in my opinion the degree to which absolute excellence in striking will in 99% of possible outcomes totally and unequivocally overrule Roussey’s advantage in other areas [/quote]
I don’t think people are underestimating Mayweather’s boxing skills. If we were talking about a boxing or even Muay Thai fight Floyd wins pretty much every time as then the winner will always be decided on who can out strike who. But we’re talking about MMA where grappling plays a large part in who wins.
To the degree that Floyd is a better boxer than Ronda, he is at an even greater disadvantage when it comes to grappling skill (zero in fact). Roussey at least trains boxing while Floyd doesn’t train grappling AT ALL. Nor does he train kicking or defending kicks, nor does he train clinch fighting.
Nobody is arguing that if Ronda is stupid enough to try to KO or out strike Floyd that she will lose, big time! People are simply pointing out that if she can close the distance, Floyd is done. Of course all fights come down to who can better execute a solid game plan come fight night.[/quote]
I respect what you’re saying and appreciate that you probably are definitely more qualified to give an accurate opinion but I don’t see mayweather’s incredible boxing IQ being totally redundant here, I imagine that he would be able to keep distance more effectively and work towards a KO more effectively than a lot of people here seem to be assuming, especially being the incredibly smart fighter that he his. (Maybe as a boxer myself I’m just being optimistic haha)
Did any of you even consider reading Rousey’s quote on this? I read it a week ago so I don’t remember exactly but basically she said she would lunge down and crawl at him really fast to get a hold. She would never be on her feet for him to hit.
Also, she wasn’t exactly calling out FM. She was asked what she would do against him and she said she would hit the ground and crawl at him. What’s wrong with that?
[quote]dronesjr wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]dronesjr wrote:
I think a large proportion MMA fans seriously underestimate the striking ability of pro boxers, the degree to which Mayweather has achieved mastery of striking and in my opinion the degree to which absolute excellence in striking will in 99% of possible outcomes totally and unequivocally overrule Roussey’s advantage in other areas [/quote]
I don’t think people are underestimating Mayweather’s boxing skills. If we were talking about a boxing or even Muay Thai fight Floyd wins pretty much every time as then the winner will always be decided on who can out strike who. But we’re talking about MMA where grappling plays a large part in who wins.
To the degree that Floyd is a better boxer than Ronda, he is at an even greater disadvantage when it comes to grappling skill (zero in fact). Roussey at least trains boxing while Floyd doesn’t train grappling AT ALL. Nor does he train kicking or defending kicks, nor does he train clinch fighting.
Nobody is arguing that if Ronda is stupid enough to try to KO or out strike Floyd that she will lose, big time! People are simply pointing out that if she can close the distance, Floyd is done. Of course all fights come down to who can better execute a solid game plan come fight night.[/quote]
I respect what you’re saying and appreciate that you probably are definitely more qualified to give an accurate opinion but I don’t see mayweather’s incredible boxing IQ being totally redundant here, I imagine that he would be able to keep distance more effectively and work towards a KO more effectively than a lot of people here seem to be assuming, especially being the incredibly smart fighter that he his. (Maybe as a boxer myself I’m just being optimistic haha)[/quote]
It’s not redundant, it’s just not going to save him if Roussey can get a hold of him.
[quote]on edge wrote:
Did any of you even consider reading Rousey’s quote on this? I read it a week ago so I don’t remember exactly but basically she said she would lunge down and crawl at him really fast to get a hold. She would never be on her feet for him to hit.
Also, she wasn’t exactly calling out FM. She was asked what she would do against him and she said she would hit the ground and crawl at him. What’s wrong with that?
[/quote]
Exactly take away his biggest strength she wins
[quote]on edge wrote:
Did any of you even consider reading Rousey’s quote on this? I read it a week ago so I don’t remember exactly but basically she said she would lunge down and crawl at him really fast to get a hold. She would never be on her feet for him to hit.
Also, she wasn’t exactly calling out FM. She was asked what she would do against him and she said she would hit the ground and crawl at him. What’s wrong with that?
[/quote]
In mma she would be forced to stand up by the ref, that’s what’s wrong with it.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Let’s not forget that Floyd is already like 3-0 against women.
Or so the courts say.
[/quote]
Touch�© [/quote]
Yup. Irish wins the thread.
I will also note that this would be a Floyd beats her ass, but she gets paid situation.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]on edge wrote:
Did any of you even consider reading Rousey’s quote on this? I read it a week ago so I don’t remember exactly but basically she said she would lunge down and crawl at him really fast to get a hold. She would never be on her feet for him to hit.
Also, she wasn’t exactly calling out FM. She was asked what she would do against him and she said she would hit the ground and crawl at him. What’s wrong with that?
[/quote]
In mma she would be forced to stand up by the ref, that’s what’s wrong with it. [/quote]
Ronda’s not dumb. No matter what some ref says, she’s not going to stand in front of Floyd.
Sentoguy,
Thank you for typing all of that out. I think I am on the same page as you, but I don’t want to assume too much.
Everyone,
I am not calling either as a “sure thing”.
What I am saying is that repeatedly grapplers have managed to stay off queer street long enough to drag a much, much more impressive striker to the floor and than things have got ugly for the striker.
I generally toe the “stay off the floor” line in these forums, but an MMA match gives a padded surface and eliminates weapons and multiple attackers, so the drag them to the floor and finish strategy seems more workable to me. This isn’t so much a question, in my mind at least, of “who wins in a fight” but " can a smaller, weaker person beat a bigger, stronger person in the smaller person’s sport of choice". The answer is “yes” often enough to warrant consideration.
I cede that the male vs female strength difference is usually very big, but there is plenty of tape of male grapplers making due when they are at a 30 plus percent bodyweight disadvantage. I think that is somewhat similar.
“Reaction time” and “Athleticism” are being brought up, but a huge part of making the “reaction” worth while is training/conditioning an appropriate response. As far as I know Floyd has never set foot in a wrestling room, so I am seeing him as being “untrained” as far as grappling/takedown defense goes. You don’t need to have Div 1 cred to take down someone who has never wrestled, even when they are a third again your own weight. The question is also not “lay a glove on” in the boxing sense of land telling blows, but simply to clinch/attach. I have seen plenty of cans manage to clinch there way to the end of a round against much, much better boxers, and that is with a ref breaking them up.
As a general rule the striker would try to keep distance and back up, this usually blunts the effect of any strikes they throw. It also makes throwing low kicks, like Sento suggested, way WAY less risky. Granted if the striker is Money May his ability to stop and counter with a right may negate a lot of that safety.
It does not take a shit ton of training hours to submit or smash someone untrained, even if they are much, much bigger than you. I will also say that someone who is an expert at punching from their feet does not often figure out how to strike from downed positions without some work. IF the boxer hasn’t put in that work than even being underneath them is relatively safe.
I have seen ALL of the above play out personally. In many cases I was the little guy, and I do not consider myself skilled in any respect.
At the end of it I think there are fairly obvious ways either a much smaller, but skilled grappler or a larger and highly skilled boxer could win in an MMA fight. I am not tracking the “could never happen” posts at all. Mostly because I have been around when much smaller people have made it happen.
Regards,
Robert A
Yup, we’re pretty much in agreement Robert.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Yup, we’re pretty much in agreement Robert.[/quote]
Glad to know it.
The problem with a smaller grappler beating a larger opponent, even a larger grappler, is that it is still man vs man. A woman who is doing BJJ is not tapping out men who are bigger unless there is a big gap in skill. Then there is the fact that most guys will ease up when rolling with a woman. Personally, when I roll with a woman who is smaller I don’t go as hard as with a man who is smaller.
I don’t know how much of what is attributed to Rousey actually has come from her mouth but I wouldn’t be surprised if she overestimates her abilities based on how she performs against men who are holding back.
Regardless of whether that may or may not be the case (I tend to agree with some of what you say, but also feel that your sexist attitude towards women is clouding your over all judgement), the fact remains that there is a HUGE gap in grappling skills between an Olympic medalist Judoka (male or female) and someone who has never grappled a day in their life (like Mayweather). And again, we aren’t talking about a situation where the man outweighs the woman by 100+ lbs of muscle, but two relatively equally sized individuals.
It would be one thing if we were talking about Roussey pulling/jumping guard, in which case Floyd may very well be able to land some effective punches and mess up her game. But we are talking about someone who excels at taking people down and submitting them from the top. Mayweather isn’t going to be landing anything resembling a KO punch off his back, and any attempt to push/muscle Ronda off will result in a one way trip to armbar city.
Rousey is skilled at taking women down. Women who have nowhere the ability of Floyd. I don’t see how what men can do and have done in the UFC somehow translates to a woman.