Roots of Human Morality

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
481

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Saddam was a secularist he killed people because they were in his way or just annoying him.[/quote]

Yeah, I guess all that “Sunni” stuff was just B.S.

You’ve discredited yourself here. As weak as it is, there are some signs that Hitler drifted from Christianity near the end of his life, but this is clearly just a case of you passing the hot potato and it leads me to believe you were simply doing the same with Hitler. [/quote]

Hitler was not a Christian because he did not follow Christ. Someone can call themselves something, that doesn’t mean they are. It means their lying:

28 What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, Son, go and work today in the vineyard 29 ‘I will not’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. 30 Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will’, sir, but he did not go. 31 Which of the two did what his father wanted?
The first,they answered. Jesus said to them, Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. -Matthew 21:28-32

Hitler was the Son who said he would obey his Father, but didn’t.

482

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, BUT ONLY HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER IN HEAVEN”-Matthew 7:21-23

Just ask if Hitler did the will of his Father in heaven

483

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Yeah, I guess all that “Sunni” stuff was just B.S.

[/quote]

Pat is right. Saddam was a secularist to the bone as anyone who knows anything about him and the Ba’ath Party know.

[quote]
You’ve discredited yourself here. As weak as it is, there are some signs that Hitler drifted from Christianity near the end of his life, but this is clearly just a case of you passing the hot potato and it leads me to believe you were simply doing the same with Hitler. [/quote]

WTF? What are you talking about? Hitler “drifted from Christianity” in his early teens before he even became Hitler.

484

[quote]fibroblaster wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Saddam was a secularist he killed people because they were in his way or just annoying him.[/quote]

Yeah, I guess all that “Sunni” stuff was just B.S.

You’ve discredited yourself here. As weak as it is, there are some signs that Hitler drifted from Christianity near the end of his life, but this is clearly just a case of you passing the hot potato and it leads me to believe you were simply doing the same with Hitler. [/quote]

Hitler was not a Christian because he did not follow Christ. Someone can call themselves something, that doesn’t mean they are. It means their lying:

28 What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, Son, go and work today in the vineyard 29 ‘I will not’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. 30 Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will’, sir, but he did not go. 31 Which of the two did what his father wanted?
The first,they answered. Jesus said to them, Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. -Matthew 21:28-32

Hitler was the Son who said he would obey his Father, but didn’t. [/quote]

Aren’t we already having this discussion in your thread? Do you really want to double up like this?

485

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Yeah, I guess all that “Sunni” stuff was just B.S.

[/quote]

Pat is right. Saddam was a secularist to the bone as anyone who knows anything about him and the Ba’ath Party know.

[quote]
You’ve discredited yourself here. As weak as it is, there are some signs that Hitler drifted from Christianity near the end of his life, but this is clearly just a case of you passing the hot potato and it leads me to believe you were simply doing the same with Hitler. [/quote]

WTF? What are you talking about? Hitler “drifted from Christianity” in his early teens before he even became Hitler.[/quote]

On what do you base this claim that Saddam is secular?

Maybe Hitler was a secret atheist his entire life, but I doubt it.

“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

But, to humour you, even if Hitler was an atheist and Saddam a secularist, they still gained massive support through the use of religious moral teachings. Perhaps you haven’t read this thread in its entirety, but my point from the beginning (before Pat showed up and… Pat-ifyed this thread) is that the problem with a rigid objective moral system is that it can be twisted to justify cruelty.

If your “moral” behaviour stems from compassion and reason instead, then everything that follows will be, by its very nature, compassionate and reasonable. Do you disagree?

486

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

On what do you base this claim that Saddam is secular?

[/quote]

His party, his political creed, what he said and what he did. I don’t have time for this. Do you know anything about the Iraqi Ba’ath Party?

Note the words “secular” and “socialist.”

Really? What works have you read on Hitler and National Socialism? Nevermind.

[quote]
“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

But, to humour you, even if Hitler was an atheist and Saddam a secularist, they still gained massive support through the use of religious moral teachings.

Perhaps you haven’t read this thread in its entirety, but my point from the beginning (before Pat showed up and… Pat-ifyed this thread) is that the problem with a rigid objective moral system is that it can be twisted to justify cruelty.

If your “moral” behaviour stems from compassion and reason instead, then everything that follows will be, by its very nature, compassionate and reasonable. Do you disagree? [/quote]

No one’s behaviour can stem entirely or even largely from compassion and reason. In the Phaedrus Plato describes three constituent parts - logos(in this use meaning reason,) thumos(in this case meaning a kind of animal instinct/spiritedness) and eros(love, appetite.) He makes an analogy of logos as 'a charioteer driving the two horses eros and thumos (i.e. love and spiritedness are to be guided by rationality). He develops the theme later in The Republic. This is not an idea to which I subscribe but it’s a good starting point for what you asking.

487

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]fibroblaster wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Saddam was a secularist he killed people because they were in his way or just annoying him.[/quote]

Yeah, I guess all that “Sunni” stuff was just B.S.

You’ve discredited yourself here. As weak as it is, there are some signs that Hitler drifted from Christianity near the end of his life, but this is clearly just a case of you passing the hot potato and it leads me to believe you were simply doing the same with Hitler. [/quote]

Hitler was not a Christian because he did not follow Christ. Someone can call themselves something, that doesn’t mean they are. It means their lying:

28 What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, Son, go and work today in the vineyard 29 ‘I will not’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. 30 Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will’, sir, but he did not go. 31 Which of the two did what his father wanted?
The first,they answered. Jesus said to them, Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. -Matthew 21:28-32

Hitler was the Son who said he would obey his Father, but didn’t. [/quote]

Aren’t we already having this discussion in your thread? Do you really want to double up like this? [/quote]

I am commissioned to squash falsity where I see it. You spoke falsity so I squashed it. Hitler was not a Christian. It is like calling someone who does bicep curls in the squat rack a Bodybuilder. If someone called a squat rack bicep curler a bodybuilder, I would tell them they are wrong. What kind of person profanes the bodybuilding endeavor by calling a squat rack curler a bodybuilder? The answer is the person doing curls in the squat rack.

488

Saddam was a secularist who played a rather complex chess game with the religious factions of Irak. a bit like Tito with the various ethnies of Yugoslavia.

Hitler expressed a whole bunch of religious opinions, incoherently mixing pieces of christianism, positivism, theism, and neo-paganism together, with a “I have been chosen by Providence” leitmotiv and an occasional admiration for Islam.

in any case, this “deathcount by religion/philosophy” is a rather pointless exercise.

489

[quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< I am commissioned to squash falsity where I see it. >>>[/quote]Oh really? By who? Dare I ask?

490

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

It is fig season.

491

[quote]fibroblaster wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< I am commissioned to squash falsity where I see it. >>>[/quote]Oh really? By who? Dare I ask? [/quote]It is fig season.[/quote]I’m going to refrain from concluding that you are a dangerously unbalanced individual and simply ask for clarification first. If you would be so kind?

492

32?From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. -Matthew 24: 32-35

493

Yes, I know the passage, but how do you from this derive a personal commission to “squash falsity”? Or are you talking about general commands like Jude: 3-4?

494

When the Paraclete came to the Apostles they were commissioned and received the fruits. The mustard seed spread and became large. Now it is the season for figs, so those who are commissioned need to be even more zealous. We are competing with the growth of the Fig Tree, the same tree Adam and Eve ate from. YOU were confirmed therefore YOU were ALSO commissioned.

495

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
False. Saul did not kill an entire race or genus of people, nor did God tell him to.
[/quote]

First off, I’m cutting all your obfuscation bullshit out. I don’t have the time to join in on the semantics circle-jerk you’re trying to start.

Second, WTF? Okay, what exactly DID God tell Saul to do? Tickle them? I suppose they all just fell on Saul’s sword then…

EDIT* Oh, I see what game you’re playing. God only says to kill all the Amalekites in the Mitzvah, he didn’t say it to Saul personally. Also, Saul DIDN’T kill an entire genus of people, but only because, as I stated, he left the king alive, or maybe you’re referring to the few Amalekites who escaped? << These are the sort of loopholes only a true weasel could think of. Congratulations. It changes nothing, but congratulations nonetheless.

I doubt it. Since post #1 you haven’t stfu about how “pointless” you think this conversation is, yet you haven’t left.

You’re going to respond to this. You know it. I know it. Don’t bullshit me. [/quote]

LOL! K, let me ask you this. Do you believe in God?

496

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Yeah, I guess all that “Sunni” stuff was just B.S.

[/quote]

Pat is right. Saddam was a secularist to the bone as anyone who knows anything about him and the Ba’ath Party know.

[quote]
You’ve discredited yourself here. As weak as it is, there are some signs that Hitler drifted from Christianity near the end of his life, but this is clearly just a case of you passing the hot potato and it leads me to believe you were simply doing the same with Hitler. [/quote]

WTF? What are you talking about? Hitler “drifted from Christianity” in his early teens before he even became Hitler.[/quote]

On what do you base this claim that Saddam is secular?

Maybe Hitler was a secret atheist his entire life, but I doubt it.

“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

But, to humour you, even if Hitler was an atheist and Saddam a secularist, they still gained massive support through the use of religious moral teachings. Perhaps you haven’t read this thread in its entirety, but my point from the beginning (before Pat showed up and… Pat-ifyed this thread) is that the problem with a rigid objective moral system is that it can be twisted to justify cruelty.

If your “moral” behaviour stems from compassion and reason instead, then everything that follows will be, by its very nature, compassionate and reasonable. Do you disagree? [/quote]

I have pull… And you suck at history.

497

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
His party, his political creed, what he said and what he did. I don’t have time for this. Do you know anything about the Iraqi Ba’ath Party?

Note the words “secular” and “socialist.”
[/quote]

So what if Ba’athism is secular? That doesn’t make Saddam an atheist.

“National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a Ã?¢??volkicÃ?¢?? political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship… We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the LordÃ?¢?Ã?¦ Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.” -Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept.1938.
“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

… Sorry, just so I’m clear, you’re saying that no one’s behaviour can stem largely from compassion and reason based on something Plato said (his word is law, now?). Something you, yourself don’t agree with.

Yeah, I’m just gunna leave it at that.

498

[quote]fibroblaster wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]fibroblaster wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Saddam was a secularist he killed people because they were in his way or just annoying him.[/quote]

Yeah, I guess all that “Sunni” stuff was just B.S.

You’ve discredited yourself here. As weak as it is, there are some signs that Hitler drifted from Christianity near the end of his life, but this is clearly just a case of you passing the hot potato and it leads me to believe you were simply doing the same with Hitler. [/quote]

Hitler was not a Christian because he did not follow Christ. Someone can call themselves something, that doesn’t mean they are. It means their lying:

28 What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, Son, go and work today in the vineyard 29 ‘I will not’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. 30 Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will’, sir, but he did not go. 31 Which of the two did what his father wanted?
The first,they answered. Jesus said to them, Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. -Matthew 21:28-32

Hitler was the Son who said he would obey his Father, but didn’t. [/quote]

Aren’t we already having this discussion in your thread? Do you really want to double up like this? [/quote]

I am commissioned to squash falsity where I see it. You spoke falsity so I squashed it. Hitler was not a Christian. It is like calling someone who does bicep curls in the squat rack a Bodybuilder. If someone called a squat rack bicep curler a bodybuilder, I would tell them they are wrong. What kind of person profanes the bodybuilding endeavor by calling a squat rack curler a bodybuilder? The answer is the person doing curls in the squat rack.[/quote]

Your analogy only works under the assumption that what you’re trying to prove is already true.

But, since you’re here to spread truth and all, I have a question for you. Perhaps you have enough courage to answer. If God, himself, commanded you to kill Hitler, would you?

499

[quote]kamui wrote:
Saddam was a secularist who played a rather complex chess game with the religious factions of Irak. a bit like Tito with the various ethnies of Yugoslavia.

Hitler expressed a whole bunch of religious opinions, incoherently mixing pieces of christianism, positivism, theism, and neo-paganism together, with a “I have been chosen by Providence” leitmotiv and an occasional admiration for Islam.

in any case, this “deathcount by religion/philosophy” is a rather pointless exercise.

[/quote]

Christianity, positive Christianity and theism are not mutually exclusive terms. Also, admiring another religion doesn’t make you non-Christian.

I agree that the death count argument is, ultimately, pointless, but at the same time, I’m not the one arguing for the guy who once flooded the earth, killing every living thing except for a pair of each animal and one family. What does that bring the death count up to?

500

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
False. Saul did not kill an entire race or genus of people, nor did God tell him to.
[/quote]

First off, I’m cutting all your obfuscation bullshit out. I don’t have the time to join in on the semantics circle-jerk you’re trying to start.

Second, WTF? Okay, what exactly DID God tell Saul to do? Tickle them? I suppose they all just fell on Saul’s sword then…

EDIT* Oh, I see what game you’re playing. God only says to kill all the Amalekites in the Mitzvah, he didn’t say it to Saul personally. Also, Saul DIDN’T kill an entire genus of people, but only because, as I stated, he left the king alive, or maybe you’re referring to the few Amalekites who escaped? << These are the sort of loopholes only a true weasel could think of. Congratulations. It changes nothing, but congratulations nonetheless.

I doubt it. Since post #1 you haven’t stfu about how “pointless” you think this conversation is, yet you haven’t left.

You’re going to respond to this. You know it. I know it. Don’t bullshit me. [/quote]

LOL! K, let me ask you this. Do you believe in God?[/quote]

Called it!

Also, good job dodging the issue again.

Do I believe in God? Well I suppose that depends on how you define God. Given what I know about you, compared to you, I am an atheist.

But just to be sure, you should define God.