Can Moral Education Be Grounded in Naturalism?

Atheists are, by definition, naturalists. This is taken from Gordon Clark’s book “A Christian Philosophy of Education:”

[quote]

Among moral prescriptions common opinion would include the Sixth, Seventh, and Eighth of the Ten Commandments. Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery, and thou shalt not steal, have usually been regarded as important moral laws. An orthodox Christian or an orthodox Jew can sincerely and consistently inculcate these laws because he believes them to be the laws of God. They are right because God has commanded them. And they are laws because God imposes penalties for their transgression. Thus moral education can consistently be grounded on Biblical religion.

Humanism, naturalism, or atheism obviously does not have this ground for morality, nor does it uniformly accept these laws. Professor Edwin A. Burtt, himself a humanist, in both editions of his Types of Religious Philosophy, indicates the repudiation of Biblical morality by reporting that the more radical Humanists regard “sex as an essentially harmless pleasure which should be regulated only by personal taste and preference.” Similarly the political radicalism of many naturalists in attacking private property and advocating confiscatory taxation and the redistribution of wealth is a thinly disguised defense of legalized theft. And it is not difficult to identify godless government which make constant use of murder. Naturalism therefore seems to be consistent with a repudiation of the Ten Commandments.

No doubt many Humanists in America disprove of the brutality and murder inherent in Communism. Some may even have a kind word for private property. And some would not condone adultery. But the the problem that naturalism must face is this: Can an empirical philosophy, a philosophy that repudiates revelation, an instrumentalist or descriptive philosophy provide a ground—I do not say for the Ten Commandments—but for any moral prescriptions whatever? Or do the Humanists’ arguments that place sexual relations in the sphere of purely personal preference also imply that all the choices of life are equally a matter of private taste?

The empirical method in axiology can only begin with the discovery in experience of so-called values. Art and friendship, health and material comfort, are frequently so identified. The precise identification, however, is not the crucial point. These so-called values are all descriptive facts. Burtt discovers in his experience a preference for art and friendship. Someone else may not value art at all. Similarly, personal preference varies between monogamy and adultery. And Stalin shows a preference for murder. As Gardner Williams of the University of Toledo, in his volume, Humanistic Ethics, says, “Selfish ambition, or the will to power, when successful, is intrinsically satisfactory” (6). Thus murder, as much as friendship, is a value because it has been discovered as a value in experience. How then can a theory which restricts itself to descriptive facts provide ground for normative prescriptions? If the premise of an argument is the descriptive fact that someone likes something, by what logic could one arrive at the conclusion that other people ought to like the same thing? Any syllogism with a normative conclusion requires a normative premise.

Some naturalists, perhaps most naturalists today, attempt to avoid this patent fallacy by speaking of obligation as a social demand. Instead of depending on Almighty God to impose sanctions, these naturalists depend on society. However, the attempt to base morality on society not only fails to avoid the fallacy, but it faces other difficulties as well. In the first place, if morality is a demand of society, one must indicate which society. Is it the demand of the family, the church, the nation, or all humanity? It can hardly be all humanity, for two reasons. There are no demands which are clearly demands of humanity. Humanity, if it speaks at all, speaks in such an indistinct and ambiguous language that no specific obligation can be proved. And second, if society is to take the place of God as the source of sanctions, then obviously humanity cannot be the basis of obligation, for humanity imposes no sanctions. Therefore an ethical theory based on social demand must appeal to family, church, or nation. Of these three the nation is most able to impose sanctions. Hence, morality becomes loyalty to the state, and murder, adultery, and theft become moral obligations when Nazism, Fascism, and Communism demand them.

In the next place, this appeal to society is itself without basis. Where is the argument to establish an individual’s obligation to any society? It may be prudent to act so as to avoid penalties, but even the most totalitarian state is not totally efficient. When possible, therefore, disobedience to social custom or even an attempt to overthrow the state may be justified. In any case, a man may commit suicide. How can any society obligate an individual to continue living? Dr. Jerome Nathanson, executive secretary of the Ethical Culture Society, seeing that not everyone will be converted to Christianity, asks orthodox Christians to submerge their faith and cooperate in a moral enterprise to salvage the world from its present plight. Whether one believes in God or not, still he must go on and try to make the world a fit place in which to live. This appeal grossly begs the question. Indeed it contains an obviously false statement. It is not true that we must go on and try to improve the world. We do not have to go on. We can quit the world. It is here that Dr. Nathanson shuts his eyes to the problem. Is life worth-while if there is no God? He thinks so, but Humanism seems to have no argument to support this belief. The question reappears, namely, If God be banished, how can society obligate anyone to keep on living? This question seems unanswerable, and instead of Christians being too polite to ask embarrassing questions, they should repeat this one insistently. Further, even if a person does not commit suicide, but prefers to live, how can society obligate him to sacrifice his ease for the improvement of the world? If naturalism can do no better than to call such people social sponges and other derogatory names, as W.H. Kilpatrick does, it has abandoned rational argument and can provide no basis for moral education.

In spite of the ethical speculation of the last hundred years, the best attempt to base ethics on empiricism, social demands, individual goods, and all without benefit of revelation, is still Jeremy Bentham’s utilitarianism. Bentham thought that all men universally desire pleasure. This assertion of a single common end supposedly puts all men under a common obligation. On this general basis the right and wrong in specific instances is to be determined by calculating consequences. Murder, adultery, and theft would presumaly be means to pain, and thus moral education would be possible.

Unfortunately for naturalism, all such attempts are failures because there is no empirical knowledge sufficient to brand murder as wrong and private property as right. Any empirical calculation to foster the good life in all persons affected by one’s conduct is a vain dream. Even if it were true that murder and theft frequently result in pain to the perpetuator, it is clear that this is not universally true. Hitler may have suffered for his murders and confiscations; but Stalin lived to a ripe old age, enjoying the almost perfect fruition of his vengeful plans. Few adherents of Biblical morality can boast of such empirical succcess. Indeed, even in the case of Hitler, his final catastrophe included, what purely naturalistic argument could show that his life was not better than the lives of the six million Jews he murdered? He enjoyed excitement, wealth, and power for several years, and suffered only a few moments. Is not this a better life than that of his pitiful victims? Unless there is an Almighty God to impose inescapable penalties on transgressors, why should we not praise the rich, full, stimulating, dangerous life of a dictator?

Any theory therefore which denies divine sanctions for violation of divine law not only fails to condemn murder, adultery, and theft, but in addition fails to establish any universal or common distinction between right and wrong. Naturalism therefore cannot serve as a ground for Christian morals, nor can it serve as a ground even for the inculcation of the personal preferences of its exponents. In an empirical, descriptive philosophy, one may find the verb is; but the verb ought has no logical standing. [/quote]

Simple answer: YES! BTW: Good read.

If you really think that Morality comes from Religion then you are saying that every religious person holds back from murdering, raping and stealing only because of their religion. Clearly this is ridiculous and humans have an innate sense of morality. This makes sense in evolutionary terms as groups of people living together will historically have tended to be genetically linked therefore genes that select for some form of morality will increase their chances of being propagated.

Incidentally studies have been done that show no greater tendency to morality in strongly religious people than in people who claim no religion.

  • His rather crude presentation of utilitarianism left aside, can we not have a deontological ethic on utilitarian grounds?

I think we can.

  • Just because he thinks that without God there is no final source of authority does

a) in no way show that there actually is a God to derive any laws from.

b) also not mean that we have the moral obligation to follow the laws of a God that gave laws.

  • So all in all he is right and yet his alternative is not really better.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
If you really think that Morality comes from Religion then you are saying that every religious person holds back from murdering, raping and stealing only because of their religion. Clearly this is ridiculous and humans have an innate sense of morality. This makes sense in evolutionary terms as groups of people living together will historically have tended to be genetically linked therefore genes that select for some form of morality will increase their chances of being propagated.
[/quote]

The morality will change based on environmental conditions or the genes selected for. Such a morality isn’t normative at all, but merely descriptive.

[quote]orion wrote:

  • His rather crude presentation of utilitarianism left aside, can we not have a deontological ethic on utilitarian grounds?

I think we can.
[/quote]
I think we can’t. “Utility” itself means different things to different people, which is why it failed.

Agreed. But a corollary to that statement is, “If there is no God from which laws come, there is no law at all.”

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
orion wrote:

  • His rather crude presentation of utilitarianism left aside, can we not have a deontological ethic on utilitarian grounds?

I think we can.

I think we can’t. “Utility” itself means different things to different people, which is why it failed.

[/quote]

That is not really true.

The idea was that utility could mean different things for different people and yet be objectively quantifiable.

That way we could both have different ideas of utility and yet receive the exact same amount of it, thereby increasing overall utility.

The problem is that you cannot really measure utility in any meaningful way which is why it failed.

Modern welfare theory tries to work around that by measuring utility in money which is a serious economic theory fail and pretty ironic considering that they usually accuse their critics of being materialistic.

Point is, it does not work but for pretty complicated reasons that Bentham could not foresee because Pareto was not even born then.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
If you really think that Morality comes from Religion then you are saying that every religious person holds back from murdering, raping and stealing only because of their religion. Clearly this is ridiculous and humans have an innate sense of morality. This makes sense in evolutionary terms as groups of people living together will historically have tended to be genetically linked therefore genes that select for some form of morality will increase their chances of being propagated.

The morality will change based on environmental conditions or the genes selected for. Such a morality isn’t normative at all, but merely descriptive. [/quote]

Of course it is normative, it might also be subjective but so is any religious based morality due to the fact that it is applied by humans and humans are highly subjective.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
If you really think that Morality comes from Religion then you are saying that every religious person holds back from murdering, raping and stealing only because of their religion. Clearly this is ridiculous and humans have an innate sense of morality. This makes sense in evolutionary terms as groups of people living together will historically have tended to be genetically linked therefore genes that select for some form of morality will increase their chances of being propagated.

The morality will change based on environmental conditions or the genes selected for. Such a morality isn’t normative at all, but merely descriptive.

Of course it is normative[/quote]

Things that “change over time” are not a normative standard. If one group of people decides wiping out another group will help them produce more offspring, their genes will propagate and so will their system of morality.

You either don’t know what “normative” means or you don’t know how evolution works, or both.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
If you really think that Morality comes from Religion then you are saying that every religious person holds back from murdering, raping and stealing only because of their religion. Clearly this is ridiculous and humans have an innate sense of morality. This makes sense in evolutionary terms as groups of people living together will historically have tended to be genetically linked therefore genes that select for some form of morality will increase their chances of being propagated.

Incidentally studies have been done that show no greater tendency to morality in strongly religious people than in people who claim no religion.[/quote]

Maybe it is because God wrote on all our hearts the law. Maybe that is were you get your morality, it is a better explanation then it came from no where.

Without some leap of faith, there is no grounds for any morality. I would even go as far as to say, without some sort of spiritual significance words like self, or ownership, or beauty, or even pleasure and pain become nonsensical. There is not and can not be any empirical definition of those words. Any assignment of value holds a foundation in mysticism of sorts. Value itself is a religious concept.

I think religion can come into play in aligning peopleâ??s beliefs to like morals. Kind of a grease of societal morals.

I think itâ??s also interesting to note that people trying to empirically derive the 10 commandments are actually attempting to empirically prove the Christian god correct.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
If you really think that Morality comes from Religion then you are saying that every religious person holds back from murdering, raping and stealing only because of their religion. Clearly this is ridiculous and humans have an innate sense of morality. This makes sense in evolutionary terms as groups of people living together will historically have tended to be genetically linked therefore genes that select for some form of morality will increase their chances of being propagated.

The morality will change based on environmental conditions or the genes selected for. Such a morality isn’t normative at all, but merely descriptive. [/quote]

or maybe because bad people turn to god?

…altough i haven’t read that wall of text, i do like to chime in and say; be a moral person because you want to be, not because you are commanded to…

…as a starting point, I suggest you read Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…altough i haven’t read that wall of text, i do like to chime in and say; be a moral person because you want to be, not because you are commanded to…[/quote]

Obviously you do not see the emotional core of this.

The author wants to know why the fuck he should be a good boy when all the bad ones are driving Ferraris and fucking models.

He is wrestling with his soul.

There being a God that kicks him in the nads for eternity if he does not behave would help immensely.

I think his need for a dominant male as a herd animal is somewhat at odds which his philosophical insights.

I recommend pot.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…altough i haven’t read that wall of text, i do like to chime in and say; be a moral person because you want to be, not because you are commanded to…[/quote]

WHY would you want to be a moral person? :wink:

I only see morals as a way for many individuals to function as a larger group. Killin’ people in your own group isn’t gonna do much good in the long run.

Saying this without reading the wall as well.

[quote]orion wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…altough i haven’t read that wall of text, i do like to chime in and say; be a moral person because you want to be, not because you are commanded to…

Obviously you do not see the emotional core of this.

The author wants to know why the fuck he should be a good boy when all the bad ones are driving Ferraris and fucking models.

He is wrestling with his soul.

[/quote]

Somebody’s projecting here.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
If you really think that Morality comes from Religion then you are saying that every religious person holds back from murdering, raping and stealing only because of their religion. Clearly this is ridiculous and humans have an innate sense of morality. This makes sense in evolutionary terms as groups of people living together will historically have tended to be genetically linked therefore genes that select for some form of morality will increase their chances of being propagated.

The morality will change based on environmental conditions or the genes selected for. Such a morality isn’t normative at all, but merely descriptive.

Of course it is normative

Things that “change over time” are not a normative standard. If one group of people decides wiping out another group will help them produce more offspring, their genes will propagate and so will their system of morality.

You either don’t know what “normative” means or you don’t know how evolution works, or both. [/quote]

OK a group doesn’t decide to propagate their genes by wiping out another group therefore it is clearly you that struggles with the concept of evolution.

Normative just means tending to an ideal standard, that standard can change as conditions change so it would appear you also struggle with your understanding of Normative.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
If you really think that Morality comes from Religion then you are saying that every religious person holds back from murdering, raping and stealing only because of their religion. Clearly this is ridiculous and humans have an innate sense of morality. This makes sense in evolutionary terms as groups of people living together will historically have tended to be genetically linked therefore genes that select for some form of morality will increase their chances of being propagated.

The morality will change based on environmental conditions or the genes selected for. Such a morality isn’t normative at all, but merely descriptive.

Of course it is normative

Things that “change over time” are not a normative standard. If one group of people decides wiping out another group will help them produce more offspring, their genes will propagate and so will their system of morality.

You either don’t know what “normative” means or you don’t know how evolution works, or both.

OK a group doesn’t decide to propagate their genes by wiping out another group therefore it is clearly you that struggles with the concept of evolution.

Normative just means tending to an ideal standard, that standard can change as conditions change so it would appear you also struggle with your understanding of Normative.[/quote]

LOL. Wut?

Genes such as lactose tolerance propagated because they allowed nomads on the Asian steppe to wipe out neighboring groups because their warriors could bring more food with them on long campaigns. Their genes propagated. From the standpoint of natural selection, they were selected. They were also brutal with their neighbors.

I’m starting to wish you were as smart as you think you are, C_B. A standard that “changes with conditions” really isn’t any standard at all. “Today, I’m hungry. I think I’ll go out and take food from someone else by force. Yesterday, I was full, so I didn’t.”

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
If you really think that Morality comes from Religion then you are saying that every religious person holds back from murdering, raping and stealing only because of their religion. Clearly this is ridiculous and humans have an innate sense of morality. This makes sense in evolutionary terms as groups of people living together will historically have tended to be genetically linked therefore genes that select for some form of morality will increase their chances of being propagated.

The morality will change based on environmental conditions or the genes selected for. Such a morality isn’t normative at all, but merely descriptive.

Of course it is normative

Things that “change over time” are not a normative standard. If one group of people decides wiping out another group will help them produce more offspring, their genes will propagate and so will their system of morality.

You either don’t know what “normative” means or you don’t know how evolution works, or both.

OK a group doesn’t decide to propagate their genes by wiping out another group therefore it is clearly you that struggles with the concept of evolution.

Normative just means tending to an ideal standard, that standard can change as conditions change so it would appear you also struggle with your understanding of Normative.

LOL. Wut?

Genes such as lactose tolerance propagated because they allowed nomads on the Asian steppe to wipe out neighboring groups because their warriors could bring more food with them on long campaigns. Their genes propagated. From the standpoint of natural selection, they were selected. They were also brutal with their neighbors.

I’m starting to wish you were as smart as you think you are, C_B. A standard that “changes with conditions” really isn’t any standard at all. “Today, I’m hungry. I think I’ll go out and take food from someone else by force. Yesterday, I was full, so I didn’t.”

[/quote]

You stated ’ If one group of people decides wiping out another group will help them produce more offspring, their genes will propagate and so will their system of morality.’ as an example of evolution by natural selection. This implies to me that you have a shaky hold on Evolution by Natural Selection.

And of course a standard can change with conditions. The safe driving speed and therefore the speed limit on certain UK highway’s changes depending on the weather, the traffic levels and the level of light, it doesn’t mean that the speed limit isn’t a normative standard.

Not too long ago, to see a woman in trousers would be considered immoral, these days we have no issue with it. Our moral standards here have changed over time.