Roadblock at 165 Bench Press

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]Jarvan wrote:
can’t really see your shoulders from this angle, as well as your elbow positioning.

Granted that is fine, the biggest drawback to your form, is how you actually lift.

Your eccentric looks rushed and sloppy, as well as your push.

Try rest-pause reps

And your ‘leg drive’, shouldn’t end after your first rep.
[/quote]Sorry, there’s walls on three sides of this particular bench. What angle would be best to judge the bench from?

It definitely feels rushed and sloppy. With deadlift and squat, I feel like I’m in control even with heavy weights, whether I lift slow of fast. With bench, it feels like I want to get the damn bar off as quick as possible. I have tried dropping to a lower weight and taking it slow, but the problem comes back around that same 150-170 area.

Are rest pauses basically breaking a set into singles with short rests? I can try that.

The issue with my legs sometimes is that holding tension against the floor causes discomfit in my right hip, sometimes like a small spasm. I’ve never had an injury there or noticed any issues with another lift. I have tried foam rolling and it helps a little but I think I need to start doing it every night before bench day. I can’t find the right foot position that doesn’t bother me hip.

[quote]BillyHayes wrote:
Can you do 25 pushups(full range of motion, solid plank position) in a row without losing form? If you can’t then that tells you what your problem is.[/quote]
I can do 25 push-ups without any issue. What would that signify?

I ordered the 531 2nd edition and 531 for PL books so I’ll read more about the program and maybe make the switch, adding another bench and squat somewhere.

22

[quote]BillyHayes wrote:
Can you do 25 pushups(full range of motion, solid plank position) in a row without losing form? If you can’t then that tells you what your problem is.[/quote]

I would like to know what problem this signifies as well.

23

Unless you have mobility issues, get your knees lower than your hips. Spread feet wider if you need to in order to accomplish that. If you feel comfortable in your set up, you probably aren’t set up right. Tightness is not that comfortable. Also, your bar path is all over the place. Put some chalk on the bar and then after a set of 5, look at your shirt to see if you hit the same spot every rep.

As to OHP, it never did anything for my bench except make my shoulders feel worse. I do like incline and weighted dips as an accessory, but at this point you don’t need to focus on a weak spot, since you are pretty much weak in all aspects of the bench (not an insult).

24

[quote]T-Fal wrote:
As much as everyone will tell you how fast you can put on strength and size it is a myth. To do heavy bench you need a big upper body and building that takes lot’s of time. Specifically you need strong arms and triceps. Guys with bad genetics in that area will struggle on the bench. I am a fairly dedicated lifter (2-4 times a week) and it took me 3 years to get to 255lb bench at a body weight of 185-190. I thought I’d never get there–that’s how slow it was with injuries etc.

Set realistic goals and know that you are going to have to push up heavier and heavier weights to see it increase. Set yourself up in a good cage or on a smith machine and go to failure. On chest days I train bench for 20-25 minutes at the beginning of the session. Heavy reps, light reps, I go by feel. Don’t push your shoulders if they get injured and used decent form. If you raise your back you are cheating.

I do 255lb with my feet up on the bench and my ass flat–any less is not a bench IMO and training this way helps with core stability and balance. Remember for every push movement do an equal pull movement. I used to get shoulder problems from bench and then started doing mass pullups and it went away. Muscle strength needs to be balanced.[/quote]

No no no no no. Just no. Seriously, honestly, no.

25

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]T-Fal wrote:
As much as everyone will tell you how fast you can put on strength and size it is a myth. To do heavy bench you need a big upper body and building that takes lot’s of time. Specifically you need strong arms and triceps. Guys with bad genetics in that area will struggle on the bench. I am a fairly dedicated lifter (2-4 times a week) and it took me 3 years to get to 255lb bench at a body weight of 185-190. I thought I’d never get there–that’s how slow it was with injuries etc.

Set realistic goals and know that you are going to have to push up heavier and heavier weights to see it increase. Set yourself up in a good cage or on a smith machine and go to failure. On chest days I train bench for 20-25 minutes at the beginning of the session. Heavy reps, light reps, I go by feel. Don’t push your shoulders if they get injured and used decent form. If you raise your back you are cheating.

I do 255lb with my feet up on the bench and my ass flat–any less is not a bench IMO and training this way helps with core stability and balance. Remember for every push movement do an equal pull movement. I used to get shoulder problems from bench and then started doing mass pullups and it went away. Muscle strength needs to be balanced.[/quote]

No no no no no. Just no. Seriously, honestly, no.[/quote]

Just to emphasise: NO

26

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]BillyHayes wrote:
Can you do 25 pushups(full range of motion, solid plank position) in a row without losing form? If you can’t then that tells you what your problem is.[/quote]

I would like to know what problem this signifies as well.[/quote]

It would show that all the small muscles up the shoulder girdle and torso are giving out and not allowing the bigger muscles to exert maximal force.

If a 200 lb guy can do 25 pushups and can’t bench 165 it is really strange. You should be strong enough to crank out 185 at least. You don’t need good technique to bench 185 either. It makes me think the issue is mental or overtrainng. You could consider taking a few months off from bench press and focus on other lifts. You may come back stronger. You are already strong enough. Strength isn’t the issue.

27

If a person thinks their bench isn’t improving… the solution is not to ignore the bench UNLESS they are totally overworking themselves on it (this guy doesn’t say he is). The solution is to figure out where the problem is.

Many guys hit a wall around the upper 100s on bench. Similarly many hit a wall around the lower 100s on Overhead Press. I surmise it’s because that’s about the time your average male hits a “normal” strength line. Getting above and beyond that means you are stepping into “stronger than the average guy” territory.

Sometimes this is mental. Perhaps. But that’s really not the typical. The typical is that these are the lines where your shitty diet, technique, or rest is going to impede your progress.

In this case, I’m thinking this guy can tighten up his technique and learn how to bench better. The major compound lifts, while seeming so simple (pick it up, put it down)… are actually quite complex. And while you might get away with deficiencies at light weights, when it starts getting real? You have got to clean up the slop in there, wherever it is.

Ignoring the BP for months is not going to make it better.

When I hit walls or plateaus, I like to reevaluate diet, technique, rest. Sometimes these are all in order, and so it’s a simple deload and build back up. It may be time is needed to improve.

28

[quote]BillyHayes wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]BillyHayes wrote:
Can you do 25 pushups(full range of motion, solid plank position) in a row without losing form? If you can’t then that tells you what your problem is.[/quote]

I would like to know what problem this signifies as well.[/quote]

It would show that all the small muscles up the shoulder girdle and torso are giving out and not allowing the bigger muscles to exert maximal force.
[/quote]
Are you referring to his stabilizers? I think it’s the other way around unless you are talking about push ups from rings. Stabilizing a barbell is harder than normal push ups.

[quote] If a 200 lb guy can do 25 pushups and can’t bench 165 it is really strange. You should be strong enough to crank out 185 at least. You don’t need good technique to bench 185 either. It makes me think the issue is mental or overtrainng. You could consider taking a few months off from bench press and focus on other lifts. You may come back stronger. You are already strong enough. Strength isn’t the issue.
[/quote]

I agree the problem may be mental but not overtraining. Overtraining is systemic. His other lifts would be stalled as well and he would be experiencing various symptons of cns fatigue.

Why would you ask him to stop doing the lift if the problem is mental? Wouldn’t it be better to do more heavy sets but not approaching failure to reinforce technique and confidence under heavy loads?

29

Reading some of the advice given makes me think that half the people on here that responded blew right past 165 and are now solidly pressing 205, maybe 225 on a really good day…with a generous spotter that said “that was all you”.

30

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
Reading some of the advice given makes me think that half the people on here that responded blew right past 165 and are now solidly pressing 205, maybe 225 on a really good day…with a generous spotter that said “that was all you”.[/quote]

Don’t make fun of me

31

[quote]Reed wrote:

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
Reading some of the advice given makes me think that half the people on here that responded blew right past 165 and are now solidly pressing 205, maybe 225 on a really good day…with a generous spotter that said “that was all you”.[/quote]

Don’t make fun of me
[/quote]
You are a beast, and definitely not one of the ones I am making fun of. But, on a different note, I am considering using wrist wraps. Have you found they help much in your bench?

32

What is the best course of action for me now? I don’t think laying off bench is a solution when I’m at such low weight. Should I switch to doing heavier triples or singles? Or go down to a lower, easily handled weight and take slow reps perfecting form, then build back up? I’m going to stay on my routine until the end of the month while I read the 531 books. It doesn’t seem like much heavy volume at first glance.

33

DO NOT lay off the bench.

Add a 2nd bench day. Work up in sets of 5s to something heavy which you usually start rushing to end the set, but not heavy enough to go to failure.

Do a couple of sets of 3-5 reps.
-Lower under control.
-Pause each rep (just a 1 count pause) on the chest, make sure the bar touches the same place on the chest each time.
-Explode the weight up
-Make sure each rep looks the same
-Do the same for warm-ups

Objective:

Reinforce technique and build confidence under heavy weights.
Get in more volume.

34

Lots of people gave you advice already. What do you want to hear?

  1. Train with someone stronger than you
  2. Use a spotter to eliminate fear
  3. Set up a bench in a power rack, put the safety bars in, add more than your max to the bar and do partial reps. Then lower the weight and do full range reps
  4. Follow Prilepin’s table. Start with 60% and work up to 100% over the following weeks
  5. Do plyo pushups before you bench
  6. Do sprints before you bench
  7. Switch to dumbell press for a while
  8. Do Olympic lifts before you bench
  9. Bench every day
    10.Bench once a month
    11.Change your grip spacing
    12.Take creatine before your workout
    13.Do med ball throws before you bench
    14.Superset bench press with plyo pushups or med ball throws
    15.Strech your back/lats before you bench
    16.Get a massage
    17.Foam roll
    18.Take some caffeine before you workout
    19.Gain weight
    20.Use bands
    21.Use chains
    22.Have someone hold a gun to your head when you bench
    23.Put your balls in a vice grip and don’t release it until you hit the weight you want
    24.Switch to incline press for a while
    25.Use Iso-Holds, pause bench, slow eccentrics

No offense man, but 165 is warmup weight. George W. Bush can bench more than that(look it up). Just put more weight on the bar and push it up. You got to expect more of yourself or you’ll never do it. Quit looking for “the way”. You don’t need a map to get out of your driveway.

35

Ahh, the ol’

“I’m not an expert… BUT”

“No offense… BUT”

I dunno, I think it’s pretty offensive.

And telling him to ‘just put more weight on the bar and push it up’ after giving him 25 tips… I dunno mannn… I dunno.

36

Yeah, I already know I’m weak.

[quote]dt79 wrote:
DO NOT lay off the bench.

Add a 2nd bench day. Work up in sets of 5s to something heavy which you usually start rushing to end the set, but not heavy enough to go to failure.

Do a couple of sets of 3-5 reps.
-Lower under control.
-Pause each rep (just a 1 count pause) on the chest, make sure the bar touches the same place on the chest each time.
-Explode the weight up
-Make sure each rep looks the same
-Do the same for warm-ups

Objective:

Reinforce technique and build confidence under heavy weights.
Get in more volume.[/quote]
I’m going to use Friday as my second bench day. I was doing hypertrophy on Fri/Sat in a push/pull format, so today I focused on benching in reps of 5, followed with a few higher rep lighter sets, and some small lifts on the side.

I took the advice of slowing down and trying to iron out a proper bar path, aiming for a specific spot on my shirt. I didn’t do paused reps, I will try those on Tuesday. I could also try to explode up more as suggested. I have spent some time with a foam roller on my hips this week, and find it much more comfortable than it was last Tuesday to get my feet under my ass. I was having some discomfort and sort of pain there before.

I hope these look better, they certainly felt better. Sorry about the noise, I set the phone next to a big fan. 155x5

I also tried to get another angle if seeing my shoulders helps anything, but it was too close because of the rear wall. This was a 135x8 set I did after my 5s.

I think I’m going to do my 3x5 again on Tuesday, then work up to some heavier singles.

37

Beautiful set up. I noticed you did pay more attention to the hip drive, nice work. The purpose of it is to add stability to the hip lumbo complex… making your body feel more stable on the bench is gonna subdue the golgi tendons from resisting too much.

With that said, I think I figured it out. Your shoulders are too low. Give em a slight shrug with the scapular retraction and see what happens there. Also, your grips are pretty wide. It’s your preference in the end, but perhaps a slightly more narrow grip will allow you to engage more tri’s in the movement. And while I’m on this tangent… pull the bar on the way down…

38

[quote]electricred wrote:
Yeah, I already know I’m weak.

[quote]dt79 wrote:
DO NOT lay off the bench.

Add a 2nd bench day. Work up in sets of 5s to something heavy which you usually start rushing to end the set, but not heavy enough to go to failure.

Do a couple of sets of 3-5 reps.
-Lower under control.
-Pause each rep (just a 1 count pause) on the chest, make sure the bar touches the same place on the chest each time.
-Explode the weight up
-Make sure each rep looks the same
-Do the same for warm-ups

Objective:

Reinforce technique and build confidence under heavy weights.
Get in more volume.[/quote]
I’m going to use Friday as my second bench day. I was doing hypertrophy on Fri/Sat in a push/pull format, so today I focused on benching in reps of 5, followed with a few higher rep lighter sets, and some small lifts on the side.

I took the advice of slowing down and trying to iron out a proper bar path, aiming for a specific spot on my shirt. I didn’t do paused reps, I will try those on Tuesday. I could also try to explode up more as suggested. I have spent some time with a foam roller on my hips this week, and find it much more comfortable than it was last Tuesday to get my feet under my ass. I was having some discomfort and sort of pain there before.

I hope these look better, they certainly felt better. Sorry about the noise, I set the phone next to a big fan. 155x5

I also tried to get another angle if seeing my shoulders helps anything, but it was too close because of the rear wall. This was a 135x8 set I did after my 5s.

I think I’m going to do my 3x5 again on Tuesday, then work up to some heavier singles.[/quote]
The problem with working up to heavy singles AFTER doing 3x5 is that if you can do heavy singles afterwards, then you didn’t push hard enough on the 3x5. If you gave it your all on the 3x5, then you won’t have much left for heavy singles.

I would do a hypertrophy day as one of your days where you do 5x8 at something like 70% 1RM, and add 5 lbs every week until you can’t. Weeks 3-4, do 4x8 and weeks 5-6 do 3x8. Then on the other bench day to three sets of max reps at 85% 1 RM. once again, at 5 lbs per week. After 6 weeks, retest max and start over.

39

@Ecchastang

I’ve enjoyed your posts and have been impressed by your bench stats for quite a while but I don’t recall seeing any thread where you went in depth about your training from beginner to now.

Now that I’ve the chance to ask, could you give us some details of your early training up to when you hit that over double bodyweight bench and general philosophies on bench training?

40

[quote]dt79 wrote:
@Ecchastang

I’ve enjoyed your posts and have been impressed by your bench stats for quite a while but I don’t recall seeing any thread where you went in depth about your training from beginner to now.

Now that I’ve the chance to ask, could you give us some details of your early training up to when you hit that over double bodyweight bench and general philosophies on bench training?[/quote]

Philosophies on bench training…

  1. Find what works for you
  2. Do what works for you

I know that seems simple, but everyone is different and responds differently to the same stimulus.

As to my training background, Started lifting in 1994 in High School, in 1996, entered my first lifting competition, and benched 235 at 132 bodyweight. In 1997 as a senior, did a HS bench comp hosted by the university of Alabama, and did 285 at 144, winning best pound for pound lifter. I honestly cant remember how my training was at the time, as it was so long ago. Stopped lifting after my freshman year of college in 1998.

Got into climbing in 2001, and pursued that as my passion. After a finger injury in July 2011, I decided to see if I could hit a 275 bench. Started lifting in August of that year, and have tracked every workout since. Also started weighing myself every morning then as well.

I started out lifting every 5 days, alternating between 15, 12, 10, 8 and 10, 8, 6, 4. It took me about 5 weeks to hit a single at 275, And on Oct 19th, did 305 at a bodyweight of 155. Started mixing in some days of 8, 6, 4, 2 after that. Spring of 2012, focused more on climbing and cutting weight for that, so my lifting suffered a little, but on April 24th 2012, did 295 at a BW of 144. In the fall, set a goal of hitting 3 plates, and kept with the rep pattern rotation, and hit a single at 315 on Nov 18th 2012 BW 149. Basically stalled there. Started doing meets with NASA spring 2013. Started trying a variety of rep schemes, 5x5, doing heavy negatives, incline, etc and was at a standstill.

In Sept, started running 5/3/1 and had steady gains until June of this year. Fastest gains were cycles 2-4, but still steady growth the whole time. Dropped my training max the beginning of March after 8 cycles. I only used 5/3/1 for my bench, and benched once per week. On a second day per week I would either do incline or OHP and incline. Sometimes I would do 5/3/1 rep patterns, other times sets of 8 or 10. On bench day, ALWAYS went for AMRAP last set, and then chose a backoff weight and went AMRAP again. Would incorporate weighted dips, CGBP OR decline press for a couple sets afterwards in the 8-10 range.

On May 15th did 350 TnG at bodyweight 152. My next 5/3/1 cycle was my best. 295x7 on my 5+, 310x5 on my 3+ and 325x3 on 1+. Then tweaked my shoulder doing some crossfit shit with my girlfriend, and took until about 5 weeks ago to be able to lift pain free. On Aug 21st did 315x3 just to see where I was at for an estimated max to start the DUP program I mention in the powerlifting program. I really like the results so far. More volume than I have ever done, but good. I am also moving up a weight class, as USAPL is adopting IPF classes in 2015, so trying to bulk to 160. Thats fine as my goal is 400 at 160 anyway.