RI Superintendent to Fire All Teachers

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

HH I’ve had two kids go through the public school system I’ve seen the abuse first hand.

  1. Extending school hours to rationalize a pay raise. They extended the school hours so that the kids are going to school in the dark 7:00AM!

  2. Putting in their contract that they have first refusal to coach any sports team regardless of experience or training in that sport. Needless to say we have losing teams and morale is in the toilet.

  3. Making it virtually impossible to fire any teacher unless that teacher actually commits a crime.

  4. Elementary school teachers, Gym and Art teachers alike, making over 75-K some at close to 100-K!

Honestly, they’re a bunch of bandits and the entire community is sick of them. They do all this under the guise of helping the children. In reality they are using the kids as a shield to milk the system and cause our taxes to go through the roof.

There is no group of “professionals” more loathsome than teachers.
[/quote]

Looking through your list Zeb I’m trying to figure out whats wrong here.

On #1. I don’t see the issue with kids being to school by 7? In high school my day started by 7:15.

#2 The thing about the sports teams, the group here in general is against paying any higher taxes correct? So wouldn’t going out and hiring outside coaches that aren’t teachers lead to another salary and more taxes?

#3 Having worked in management for a large corporation it is almost impossible to fire just about anybody anymore. Every company and HR department is so leary about termination unless it is for a crime.

#4 Just looking at my state the average teacher pay is between $31k and $73k (I would guess that this information is a couple years old). But doesn’t it stand to reason that if an individual puts in the time to achieve an advanced degree and further that degree (masters) that they can and should get paid more?

Isn’t that what as parents we are teaching our kids? Go to school work hard, play hard, go to college, get that degree and get that high paying job.

I’m aware that some unions use tactics I don’t agree with (sick outs and so forth). Also some are not willling to accept cuts during these times that the rest of us have.

I’m just finding it funny that in the end what we all want is the best for our children (my boys hate that I’m on their ass about homework and keeping up). But I think putting all the blame on the teachers is wrong. There are a lot of lazy parents out there that look at the schools as a government funded babysitting service.[/quote]

  1. You do not see the issue with Kids going to school at 7? Except that most people function the best after 9?

  2. I am guessing Zeb is talking about football? You do know that football is one of those organizations in a Public school system that actually makes money instead of just spends it? Hiring a good coach can bring a lot of money to the school.

  3. I worked in management as well, both in government and corporate. Even though I am not likely to fire someone in both, I would rather be in corporate because I still have the option, too. I would rather figure out why they are not doing their job and fix it (if they do not fix it, fire them), however in government you cannot fire them the first time (if they report it), then the second time you have to hand out pamphlets, handbooks, and paper work just to fire the guy.

  4. Well if they have a Ph.D. in an area, yet they teach another area I’m not sure they deserve a raise. And if they have a Ph.D. in the area they teach, yet their kids are not learning anything then they still do not deserve a raise. Allotment should be off ability, not need.

102

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
#3 Having worked in management for a large corporation it is almost impossible to fire just about anybody anymore. Every company and HR department is so leary about termination unless it is for a crime.
[/quote]

Maybe laws are different here, but in Boston employees are let go left and right and at the drop of a hat; behind this is usually a performance issue, a personality issue, etc. And it pisses them off to see that - for example - teachers are in a different category.

Teachers seem to want all the advantages of the market AND the advantages of being in a union. They can’t have both; and in my opinion public schools ought to tell the unions to fuck off; and they should do what’s right for the students: hire the best teachers and fire the fucknut teachers who have been rotting student’s minds for decades.

To put this in a larger context though: I do think teachers should be paid higher salaries; that is how you will get the best - but along with that has to come accountability.

But there’s a still larger context: over the past 3 decades, an increasing percentage of school budgets have been diverted into burgeoning bureaucracies. We need to slash administrative budgets and put that $ into hiring good teachers.

However, the only way to get this to happen is to force schools to compete and divert $ to their primary objective: vouchers are the only way I know of to make schools actually have to compete on performance; and to perform well they have to hire better teachers; and that means freeing up $ by slashing administrative positions.

Not necessarily. A teacher should be paid based upon performance. I know people who are passionate about American history and would make great teachers - but they can’t teach in public schools because they don’t have an education degree, etc. Conversely, there are many who have all the qualifications to teach and could give two shits about the subject they teach. And suck at it. etc.

THAT ^^ sentiment is exactly why we have an education crisis in our country. That is not what education is or ever was about.

The reason why we have so many “lazy” parents may well be the fault of a school system that has for too long tried to be a “government-funded babysitting service,” etc. In any case, whether or not that’s true, what parents do is their own choice - and I can’t control that and it’s frankly none of my business. How teachers perform IS MY BUSINESS as a taxpayer. And IT IS SOMETHING WE SHOULD HAVE CONTROL OVER.

103

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

HH I’ve had two kids go through the public school system I’ve seen the abuse first hand.

  1. Extending school hours to rationalize a pay raise. They extended the school hours so that the kids are going to school in the dark 7:00AM!

  2. Putting in their contract that they have first refusal to coach any sports team regardless of experience or training in that sport. Needless to say we have losing teams and morale is in the toilet.

  3. Making it virtually impossible to fire any teacher unless that teacher actually commits a crime.

  4. Elementary school teachers, Gym and Art teachers alike, making over 75-K some at close to 100-K!

Honestly, they’re a bunch of bandits and the entire community is sick of them. They do all this under the guise of helping the children. In reality they are using the kids as a shield to milk the system and cause our taxes to go through the roof.

There is no group of “professionals” more loathsome than teachers.

Looking through your list Zeb I’m trying to figure out whats wrong here.[/quote]

There’s plenty wrong, and little right.

Your day "started, does that mean that you were in your first class by 7:15? Anyway, HS not bad, but when you have 9 year olds getting out of bed in the dark to go to school so that the teachers can be paid more, somethings wrong.

Here’s why you’re wrong on this point, the teacher is paid an additional part time wage whether they know what they’re doing or not, and none of them do for the most part. That’s
why the teachers union wanted it in the contract. It’s about money with them. It’s not about the kids having quality sports teams, it’s about teachers being able to make additional money beyond their already exorbitant salaries.

Sorry, but you’re wrong here too. In certain states there are “at will” laws. That means that you may fire anyone for no reason. In the states where this law does not apply you must have “just cause” which means a simple paper trail is established to remove the bad employee. None of this applies to the high and mighty teachers. Once they have tenure they are basically there until they commit a crime, or do something so outlandish that it borders on the criminal.

I could not disagree more. If a teacher hangs around long enough and is mediocre he or she should get a raise because they’ve furthered their education? Tell me what successful company follows such an asinine rule? If there were such a company they’d be eaten up by the competition in short order. How about paying good teachers more money and firing the bad ones? WOW, what a novel idea huh?

I think organized crime could learn a few things from the teachers unions tactics.

You are wrong again my friend, you and I as parents want what’s best for our children. However the teachers want what’s best for the teachers, if it helps the kids great, if it hurts them, oh well at least they got what they wanted. What makes them loathsome is the very tactic of claiming certain things help the kids when in fact it only helps line the pockets of the teachers. This makes them not just greedy, but greedy cowards!

I agree with you and if we were discussing parents I’d have much to say as well.

104

Ok I’ll try my best here.

In school by 7:15, granted yes it was in HS. But I do see that most school districts in my state offer some kind of before and after care so parents can make it to work. I do see several kids at these that have been there since they opened at 6:30.

As for the sports coaches, all of my coaches were teachers in the school. And most had experience in the sport they were coaching (ex. wrestling coach was a former state champion, but he also taugh science which is what he went to college for). Our last state football champ in the large school catagory was a private school. They coach they have had already previously won at two different public schools. But the school districts needed to cut back. He went to the school that could pay him and not expect him to teach. Good for him he got paid, because they could afford to pay him.

My state is an “at will” state, but that doesn’t mean you can pull the trigger and fire someone anymore. I’ll use my experience as an example. Another manager and myself are put in charge of group of 10-12. A few of this group were good employees, but we did have several bad ones. We documented all, cause we knew if we didn’t that we would get fucked in the end. Guess what? We still got fucked by HR, instead of firing a guy for a legit reason which we documented they transferred him to another department (now keep in mind this is private sector not a union). Also there are lots of mediocre people in the private sector still working and getting raises by just getting by and doing the bare minimum (seen it first hand).

But after seeing some of the posts on this board I’m very lucky to be living where I do. I’ve had teachers that care about my kids and have gove the extra mile to help them succeed (two boys with severe ADHD). Also some (not all) of the teachers unions out here have agreed to concessions in contract to help deal with the budget crisis (no raises, or a reduction, increased benefit costs). But districts out here are also closing lower performing schools and schools with too low of an enrollment and moving the kids to a different schools.

Sorry for the long winded post, too many people to respond to. I’m sorry if I missed anything I needed or wanted a reply specifically.

105

I guess its normal to whine and cry, when what you used to get for peanuts now costs more. Of course, it doesn’t sink in WHY it cost peanuts, who was being shafted.

Society wouldn’t pay for quality, so it didn’t get it.

Some of you bitch about the fact that you didn’t get quality. No!!! You mean you can’t get Cadillac educations for Cavalier pay??? How shocking!!!

You mean teachers might not WANT to live in trailer parks, for all their hard work? That they might (gasp!!) form unions to make a monopoly system pay more??? Stunning!!

ROFLMAO!!!

106

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Some of you bitch about the fact that you didn’t get quality. No!!! You mean you can’t get Cadillac educations for Cavalier pay??? How shocking!!!

You mean teachers might not WANT to live in trailer parks, for all their hard work? That they might (gasp!!) form unions to make a monopoly system pay more??? Stunning!!
[/quote]

My kids go to a private school with non-unionized teachers who get paid less than the ‘cadillac’ teachers in the local public schools. The school scores as one of the highest quality educations in the state. They stopped comparing themselves to the local public schools years ago because the comparison meant very little because the public schools were so… ‘cavalier-ish’.

107

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Some of you bitch about the fact that you didn’t get quality. No!!! You mean you can’t get Cadillac educations for Cavalier pay??? How shocking!!!

You mean teachers might not WANT to live in trailer parks, for all their hard work? That they might (gasp!!) form unions to make a monopoly system pay more??? Stunning!!
[/quote]

My kids go to a private school with non-unionized teachers who get paid less than the ‘cadillac’ teachers in the local public schools. The school scores as one of the highest quality educations in the state. They stopped comparing themselves to the local public schools years ago because the comparison meant very little because the public schools were so… ‘cavalier-ish’.[/quote]

Will you chip in when one of those teachers needs a new roof? A new transmission? Has a tuition bill for their own child to go to college?

We lose people all the time because of $$$$.

Ask the teachers – who has the spouse with the high paying job? Who has the health insurance? Your eyes will be opened, brah.

108

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Some of you bitch about the fact that you didn’t get quality. No!!! You mean you can’t get Cadillac educations for Cavalier pay??? How shocking!!!

You mean teachers might not WANT to live in trailer parks, for all their hard work? That they might (gasp!!) form unions to make a monopoly system pay more??? Stunning!!
[/quote]

My kids go to a private school with non-unionized teachers who get paid less than the ‘cadillac’ teachers in the local public schools. The school scores as one of the highest quality educations in the state. They stopped comparing themselves to the local public schools years ago because the comparison meant very little because the public schools were so… ‘cavalier-ish’.[/quote]

Will you chip in when one of those teachers needs a new roof? A new transmission? Has a tuition bill for their own child to go to college?

We lose people all the time because of $$$$.

Ask the teachers – who has the spouse with the high paying job? Who has the health insurance? Your eyes will be opened, brah.
[/quote]

Brah? LOL.

I know these people personally, brah. These non-union teachers are my neighbors and friends. Our kids play together. We hang and talk together. I’m the first to chip in when they need help with the deck or the wood pile. They’re good people. Nobody’s getting rich on taxpayer dollars like public school teachers, but they get by like the rest of us.

The bottom line, comrade, is that they don’t hide behind a union that over inflates their wages and raises my taxes and forces cadillac benefits for shitty tenured teachers. They provide a superior education for my and their children at a lower cost.

That’s the bottom line, brah.

109

Further, comrade headhunter, my wife was a public school teacher until we had kids. It’s at her insistence that our kids go to private school.

Further, further, my daughters’ best friends (who attend the pvt school) are, get ready for it-- public school teachers (as with their cadillac salary and benefits package they can afford it).

Further, further, further, I know an additional 4 other pub. school teachers, 2 union stewards, an SEIU officer, and a pub. school principal who sends their kids to the pvt. school. Incidentally, this is a trend around the country and easily ‘googled’ should you choose to.

What a resounding endorsement for the union run, government schools, eh, comrade?

110

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Further, comrade headhunter, my wife was a public school teacher until we had kids. It’s at her insistence that our kids go to private school.

Further, further, my daughters’ best friends (who attend the pvt school) are, get ready for it-- public school teachers (as with their cadillac salary and benefits package they can afford it).

Further, further, further, I know an additional 4 other pub. school teachers, 2 union stewards, an SEIU officer, and a pub. school principal who sends their kids to the pvt. school. Incidentally, this is a trend around the country and easily ‘googled’ should you choose to.

What a resounding endorsement for the union run, government schools, eh, comrade?[/quote]

Wow, another blind one. Guess you’ll have to learn the hard way, Bra.

111

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Nobody’s getting rich on taxpayer dollars like public school teachers, [/quote]

You are officially an idiot. Anyone who thinks this…is an idiot.

Wow! Idiot.

112

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
I posted this in another thread, but do discuss would really pull the other off topic. It really deserves its own thread. It illustrates the unwillingness of the Teachers Union to give an inch, and the attitude of teachers who are partly to blame for some of the worst test scores in RI

RI school district to fire high school teachers

CENTRAL FALLS, R.I. - The superintendent of the Central Falls schools says she will fire every teacher at the high school after they refused to accept a reform plan.

The plan was offered under a state mandate to fix the school, which has among Rhode Island�?�¢??s worst test scores and graduation rates.

The plan included six conditions such as adding 25 minutes to the day and providing tutoring outside school hours.

The added work didn’t come with much extra pay and the teachers union refused to accept it.

Full Story:
http://news.bostonherald.com/news/national/northeast/view/20100213ri_school_district_to_fire_high_school_teachers/srvc=home&position=recent

[/quote]

Hmmmm…come out of school 50 or 100k in debt, take a job paying 35k pre-tax, teaching kids who have the manners of wild animals, and work pretty much every waking hour…

…so some governor can balance his budget on your back and scapegoat you.

Okay, that’s pretty stupid.

[/quote]

Or… you could be a teacher on Long Island and make $100k+ for working 3/4 of the year (yes, 190 school vs around 250 working days), and STILL reject any concessions. And be tenured 3 years in, so you have job security for life. Gimme a break.

Even in lower-paying areas, come on: teachers work 190 days a year!!!

113

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Nobody’s getting rich on taxpayer dollars like public school teachers, [/quote]

You are officially an idiot. Anyone who thinks this…is an idiot.

Wow! Idiot.
[/quote]

I think it’s established who the idiot is here. I always thought you were weird, but this is a different level. You’re also full of shit.

114

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:
Ok I’ll try my best here.

In school by 7:15, granted yes it was in HS. But I do see that most school districts in my state offer some kind of before and after care so parents can make it to work. I do see several kids at these that have been there since they opened at 6:30.[/quote]

Exactly my point. If they’re there at 6:30 heaven only knows what time those little kids had to get out of bed. I hope you see something wrong with that.

I think it’s fine for teachers to coach teams IF they actually know what they’re doing. Having it in their contract that they have the first option however is wrong. That means that a teacher who has no experience at all can step up and coach a Football team when they’ve never even seen the game played. Conversely, the athletic director cannot even consider hiring a former College stand-out because it would break the teachers union precious contract.

Do you see how this is wrong?

Glad you mentioned cut backs. Did you ever notice that when there’s a cut back that the teachers NEVER feel the sting? Who is giving things up? THE CHILDREN!

First of all you made a mistake by trying to fire someone for “something” in an at will state. You need no reason. You simply call them in with a witness and tell them that it’s not working out. Say no more than this. End of story.

Obviously this has nothing to do with higher ups covering for friends, sexual harassment, etc.

Anyway, as I said you cannot fire a teacher almost regardless of what they’ve done. They can be the worst teacher in the district and they just keep getting raises and moving along as if they’re effective. We have the teachers union to thank for this.

Certainly there are some good teachers out there I never said that they were none. It’s just that as a group they care far more about themselves than they do the kids. Then hide behind the kids by claiming it’s all about them. Cowards.

If you are in an area where teachers actually took a reduction in pay, good for you. That is quite rare.

115

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I guess its normal to whine and cry, when what you used to get for peanuts now costs more. Of course, it doesn’t sink in WHY it cost peanuts, who was being shafted.

Society wouldn’t pay for quality, so it didn’t get it.

Some of you bitch about the fact that you didn’t get quality. No!!! You mean you can’t get Cadillac educations for Cavalier pay??? How shocking!!!

You mean teachers might not WANT to live in trailer parks, for all their hard work? That they might (gasp!!) form unions to make a monopoly system pay more??? Stunning!!

ROFLMAO!!! [/quote]

Do you realize that 40 years ago before the teachers unions had a choke hold on the districts that grades were actually higher?

You realize by now that throwing money at a problem doesn’t help the problem.

Look you have a great job, fine, but at least realize that something is wrong with the system.

116

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Nobody’s getting rich on taxpayer dollars like public school teachers, [/quote]

You are officially an idiot. Anyone who thinks this…is an idiot.

Wow! Idiot.
[/quote]

LMAO! I’ve been called worse by government employees who make more than you!

All I’m saying is that if you’ve resorted to flying off the handle and reduced to “You’re an idiot”, then I’ve hit a home run, brah.

117

So what have we learned in this thread?

From Zeb, we learn that teachers are evil.

From SteelyD, we learn that teachers are out to get rich.

From Irish, we learn that teachers formed unions, not in response to a monopoly that held down wages, but to drain the state of all its resources.

Based upon such a sample, this does NOT bode well for our country.

There are rational people like John S. though, so maybe there is a glimmer of hope.

118

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Nobody’s getting rich on taxpayer dollars like public school teachers, [/quote]

You are officially an idiot. Anyone who thinks this…is an idiot.

Wow! Idiot.
[/quote]

LMAO! I’ve been called worse by government employees who make more than you!

All I’m saying is that if you’ve resorted to flying off the handle and reduced to “You’re an idiot”, then I’ve hit a home run, brah.[/quote]

‘Flying off the handle’?

I rest my case. What a bunch of bro-tards…pathetic…

119

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
So what have we learned in this thread?

From Zeb, we learn that teachers are evil.

From SteelyD, we learn that teachers are out to get rich.

From Irish, we learn that teachers formed unions, not in response to a monopoly that held down wages, but to drain the state of all its resources.

Based upon such a sample, this does NOT bode well for our country.

There are rational people like John S. though, so maybe there is a glimmer of hope.[/quote]

From Headhunter, we learn that one can be a bipolar die-hard anti-government individualist AND a rabid union collectivist who infers way to much from other peoples posts.

120

HH - not another word about Obama, OK? I mean, your prized organization was instrumental in getting him and several other lib/leftiss elected.

Obama wants to thank you personally for your hard work and dedication towards creating a worker’s paradise, comrade!

National Education Association (NEA aka “The Teacher’s Union”)

http://www.neafund.org/main.cfm?actionId=globalShowStaticContent&screenKey=cmpContent&s=nea&htmlKey=involvedvictories

In 2008, NEA members and their families were instrumental in electing President Barack Obama and in winning eight targeted Senate races and 40 of the congressional races targeted by the NEA Fund, building a majority of pro-public education lawmakers in Congress.

The NEA has ushered in a new era of leadership. And thanks to those efforts, we’ve already made significant progress in renewing America’s commitment to public education

* The economic recovery law is creating or saving more than 267,000 teaching jobs and 40,000 education support jobs, while making the largest federal investment in education in history
* Raising the maximum Pell Grant for eligible students from $4,850 to $5,350
* $39.5 billion in relief for public school districts and public institutions of higher education
* More than $13 billion for Title I, which serves the nationâ??s neediest children
* More than $12 billion for students with disabilities.
* 4 million children were added to the State Childrenâ??s Health Insurance Program.
* The Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act will bring us closer to equal pay for equal work for women and men.
* Executive Orders to spread worker protections and level the playing field for workers and the unions that represent them. The Administration also supports the Employee Free Choice Act that will protect the rights of workers to choose a union.
* The Middle Class Working Families Task Force, headed by Vice President Biden, will develop legislative and policy proposals to raise the living standards of Americaâ??s working families.
* The Budget passed by Congress lays the groundwork for building on the increases for education provided in the economic recovery package. It allows for significant investments in education and includes language to pave the way for action on health care reform this year.