RI Superintendent to Fire All Teachers

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]John S. wrote:
HH does bring up some good points, if schools are letting the older teachers go so they don’t have to pay them then yes they should have some sort of protection. If the state protects against it then there should be no union. [/quote]

This happens in every industry - what makes teachers so special? And yes there are laws against it, but hard to enforce. Moreover, if a teachers is extremely good though getting on in years - AND a school system is accountable for its performance - they’d be stupid to let that teacher go.

HH is a hypocrite not because he thinks people should be able to unionize freely (HH’s red herring) but because suddenly he seems to think that that collectivism will yield a superior outcome; and that, therefore schools ought to honor that “collective.” Finally, that an individual teacher ought to honor the will of the “collective” before his or her own.

82

LOL comfy union jobs…

83

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
If teachers want to be unionized and have all the benefits that thereby accrue to them - and by which they are protected from the “market” - they have to accept “low pay.” By the way, outside of a market what do we mean by “low” or “high” pay - low/high compared with what?

They can’t have it both ways.

Doctors and lawyers operate in a market. They are not tenured and/or pensioned on public funds.

HH is a fucking hypocrite.

[/quote]

So you don’t believe that people should be free to form unions? People shouldn’t be free to freely unite together for better pay? Even Ms. Rand believed that.

The Nazis closed down the unions. Is that what you’d like?

Tell us more, Hermann.
[/quote]

This thread is hilarious.

WTF are you talking about? Did I say anything about whether people should be free to form unions? As long as there is no force involved, unions are completely legal.

OTOH, schools should feel free to hire “non-union” teachers; because after all, the school is charged with giving our children a good education, not with supporting brain-dead dimwits who have somehow clung on to their job despite being really shitty at it.

Unless you think that the purpose of schools is to provide comfy union jobs?

Tell us more, Butt Hunter.[/quote]

Why do you think teachers formed unions in the first place? They kept getting shafted by politicians who convinced dumb fucks like you that they could keep teacher salaries (and hence taxes) down; they thus got votes from the moronic public that will spend 10k on a Disney vacation but vote against $100 per year in taxes, for decent teacher compensation.

You thought you could get quality students by monopolizing education in government schools that keep teacher comp down. You wanted to blank out reality.

The teachers unionized in reaction and the crybabies come out – because they actually DO have to pay. They blanked out reality and got lousy teaching for lousy pay. What a surprize!

Tell us more of YOUR ideas, Siegfried. LMAO!!!

84

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:
HH does bring up some good points, if schools are letting the older teachers go so they don’t have to pay them then yes they should have some sort of protection. If the state protects against it then there should be no union. [/quote]

This happens in every industry - what makes teachers so special? And yes there are laws against it, but hard to enforce. Moreover, if a teachers is extremely good though getting on in years - AND a school system is accountable for its performance - they’d be stupid to let that teacher go.

HH is a hypocrite not because he thinks people should be able to unionize freely (HH’s red herring) but because suddenly he seems to think that that collectivism will yield a superior outcome; and that, therefore schools ought to honor that “collective.” Finally, that an individual teacher ought to honor the will of the “collective” before his or her own.[/quote]

I myself am anti-union, tho I do believe people have the right to form unions. When the union most likely causes the death of the company I believe they should have to face it on their own. If that makes any sense.

I don’t know if he believes it produces the superior outcome. If a teacher is not part of union I don’t think HH thinks that teacher should have to follow their rules.

85

[quote]John S. wrote:

I don’t know if he believes it produces the superior outcome.
[/quote]

Of course he does - that’s why he supports them (in the context of schools)

Unions only work if people join them.

86

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:
HH does bring up some good points, if schools are letting the older teachers go so they don’t have to pay them then yes they should have some sort of protection. If the state protects against it then there should be no union. [/quote]

This happens in every industry - what makes teachers so special? And yes there are laws against it, but hard to enforce. Moreover, if a teachers is extremely good though getting on in years - AND a school system is accountable for its performance - they’d be stupid to let that teacher go.

HH is a hypocrite not because he thinks people should be able to unionize freely (HH’s red herring) but because suddenly he seems to think that that collectivism will yield a superior outcome; and that, therefore schools ought to honor that “collective.” Finally, that an individual teacher ought to honor the will of the “collective” before his or her own.[/quote]

Wow…you had to go to a public school to come up with this.

Do you understand what a monopoly is? Do you understand how people (like, teachers forming unions) will try to thwart that monopoly?

I think George Washington in your avatar is crying over your use of him there. Jesus, please respect the man and pick something else. Here, I’ll help.

87

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:

I don’t know if he believes it produces the superior outcome.
[/quote]

Of course he does - that’s why he supports them (in the context of schools)

Unions only work if people join them. [/quote]

Again I don’t know if he believes it, why not ask him to clarify.

People should not be forced into unions, if the union is worth a damn then people will join.

88

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:
HH does bring up some good points, if schools are letting the older teachers go so they don’t have to pay them then yes they should have some sort of protection. If the state protects against it then there should be no union. [/quote]

This happens in every industry - what makes teachers so special? And yes there are laws against it, but hard to enforce. Moreover, if a teachers is extremely good though getting on in years - AND a school system is accountable for its performance - they’d be stupid to let that teacher go.

HH is a hypocrite not because he thinks people should be able to unionize freely (HH’s red herring) but because suddenly he seems to think that that collectivism will yield a superior outcome; and that, therefore schools ought to honor that “collective.” Finally, that an individual teacher ought to honor the will of the “collective” before his or her own.[/quote]

I myself am anti-union, tho I do believe people have the right to form unions. When the union most likely causes the death of the company I believe they should have to face it on their own. If that makes any sense.

I don’t know if he believes it produces the superior outcome. If a teacher is not part of union I don’t think HH thinks that teacher should have to follow their rules.[/quote]

You mean all this time, non-union teachers and school districts have in practice been freely able to come to mutual agreement, without the unions stopping this?

HH’s position, unless he makes clarifications which I’ve asked for but which he hasn’t given, would lead to the conclusion that if a teacher is not part of a union and a school district would like to hire him, screw them both because the union won’t allow it and people should be allowed to join unions.

89

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

You mean all this time, non-union teachers and school districts have been freely able to come to mutual agreement, without the unions stopping this?

HH’s position, unless he makes clarifications which I’ve asked for but which he hasn’t given, would lead to the conclusion that if a teacher is not part of a union and a school district would like to hire him, screw them both because the union won’t allow it and people should be allowed to join unions.[/quote]

I agree the teachers unions have gotten out of hand, which is why I have also said that state workers should not be able to unionize.

I highly doubt he thinks unions should have that much influence.

90

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Currently the teachers have the “freedom” to place their interests above and beyond the students, and they do so on a regular basis.[/quote]

How so?

You wouldn’t expect your doctor or lawyer to put your interests above their own. Should a doctor sacrifice their child’s education to pay for your liver transplant? Should a lawyer turn down a case where they could pay off their own mortgage, to defend a penniless bum in court?

You know, the old saw about teachers ‘shouldn’t be in it for the money’ doesn’t fix the transmission, put a replacement roof on the house, or fund one’s retirement.

Nope. It surely doesn’t.

Funny how everyone is supposed to have their self-interest at heart, but not teachers.
[/quote]

HH I’ve had two kids go through the public school system I’ve seen the abuse first hand.

  1. Extending school hours to rationalize a pay raise. They extended the school hours so that the kids are going to school in the dark 7:00AM!

  2. Putting in their contract that they have first refusal to coach any sports team regardless of experience or training in that sport. Needless to say we have losing teams and morale is in the toilet.

  3. Making it virtually impossible to fire any teacher unless that teacher actually commits a crime.

  4. Elementary school teachers, Gym and Art teachers alike, making over 75-K some at close to 100-K!

Honestly, they’re a bunch of bandits and the entire community is sick of them. They do all this under the guise of helping the children. In reality they are using the kids as a shield to milk the system and cause our taxes to go through the roof.

There is no group of “professionals” more loathsome than teachers.

91

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Currently the teachers have the “freedom” to place their interests above and beyond the students, and they do so on a regular basis.[/quote]

How so?

You wouldn’t expect your doctor or lawyer to put your interests above their own. Should a doctor sacrifice their child’s education to pay for your liver transplant? Should a lawyer turn down a case where they could pay off their own mortgage, to defend a penniless bum in court?

You know, the old saw about teachers ‘shouldn’t be in it for the money’ doesn’t fix the transmission, put a replacement roof on the house, or fund one’s retirement.

Nope. It surely doesn’t.

Funny how everyone is supposed to have their self-interest at heart, but not teachers.
[/quote]

HH I’ve had two kids go through the public school system I’ve seen the abuse first hand.

  1. Extending school hours to rationalize a pay raise. They extended the school hours so that the kids are going to school in the dark 7:00AM!

  2. Putting in their contract that they have first refusal to coach any sports team regardless of experience or training in that sport. Needless to say we have losing teams and morale is in the toilet.

  3. Making it virtually impossible to fire any teacher unless that teacher actually commits a crime.

  4. Elementary school teachers, Gym and Art teachers alike, making over 75-K some at close to 100-K!

Honestly, they’re a bunch of bandits and the entire community is sick of them. They do all this under the guise of helping the children. In reality they are using the kids as a shield to milk the system and cause our taxes to go through the roof.

There is no group of “professionals” more loathsome than teachers.
[/quote]

You know Zeb you could have home schooled them…

92

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:
HH does bring up some good points, if schools are letting the older teachers go so they don’t have to pay them then yes they should have some sort of protection. If the state protects against it then there should be no union. [/quote]

This happens in every industry - what makes teachers so special? And yes there are laws against it, but hard to enforce. Moreover, if a teachers is extremely good though getting on in years - AND a school system is accountable for its performance - they’d be stupid to let that teacher go.

HH is a hypocrite not because he thinks people should be able to unionize freely (HH’s red herring) but because suddenly he seems to think that that collectivism will yield a superior outcome; and that, therefore schools ought to honor that “collective.” Finally, that an individual teacher ought to honor the will of the “collective” before his or her own.[/quote]

Wow…you had to go to a public school to come up with this.

Do you understand what a monopoly is? Do you understand how people (like, teachers forming unions) will try to thwart that monopoly?

I think George Washington in your avatar is crying over your use of him there. Jesus, please respect the man and pick something else. Here, I’ll help.
[/quote]

LOL!!! That was one of the most hollow and pathetic responses I’ve ever witnessed from you. And that’s saying a lot. You obviously don’t know what the your talking about.

This thread is like a strip tease: Monsieur Butt Hunter is revealing the ignorance he’s been covering up with bluster all this time.

That’s what makes this thread so hilarious to watch.

93

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Teachers are over-glorified baby sitters, and they get paid too much as it is. On the other side, society does not care about education (or everyone would be going to private school). The latter statement goes full circle into the public teachers who do not care either, yet want a higher pay because they baby sit a bunch of brats.[/quote]

[/quote]

Well, I am not sure what that picture meant, but however I want to add to my previous statement.

The over-glorified baby sitter part, is well true. They can’t push the kids to really better themselves, they are definitely not encouraged too. However, they can’t fail a student (what?).

The wanting more money part comes from the Union situation.

Society hardly cares about education otherwise more kids would be being held back because of bad marks. At least at their current attitude. Most people just want the A’s and diploma (and degree) instead of learning something. As I once told my teacher when she threatened to fail me, “I could care less if I failed this class, I just want to learn something.”

The majority of public school teachers I have ran into do not care about the education either, they may not get more money for better scores, however they do get more money for the school (in return more money to spend and control) in grants etcetera. With the society not to interested in education, the parents seem to just send their kids off for 7 hours a day.[/quote]

It was a hint that you are painting with a broad brush. If teachers are over-glorified babysitters…what does it say about the parents?? Like I mentioned earlier,education starts at home. And knowing my wife’s experiences with parents…a good majority of her student’s progress is hindered by what happens away from the classroom.

And that does touch on your points about society not caring about education. My wife has dealt with plenty of parents who don’t care about their kids shortcomings,behavioral issues,etc as long as they are not failing. Then of course when they are failing…the “pendulum of fault” tends to fall on my wife(ironically from people who view her as an over-glorified babysitter) who is doing all that is within her power to help their child learn.

She stays after school…she helps out with curriculum…she’s also her grade level’s ESL teacher…she calls and talks to parents(NOT just when they are in trouble). All of this when she herself has to deal with her teacher peers who ARE the type that don’t give a shit and just “deal” with their students rather than being a pro-active educators.

Keep in mind that my wife teaches military brats…so that might add some elements different from your typical public school. Especially with the kids of upper rank that have power-tripping egos bigger than the state of TX itself[/quote]

My point exactly, there is always the anomaly or two. However, from experience if I picked my teachers carefully I could have left high school with all A’s (like I did) except with not going to school half the time.

Your wife sounds like a good teacher like one of my old English professors, who actually put a C on my paper when I half assed the essay. And who let me come in after school ended to fix it because she knew I cared enough to learn what she was trying to teach.

94

[quote]ZEB wrote:

There is no group of “professionals” more loathsome than teachers.
[/quote]

That’s what monopolies do. Our society created a monopoly in education. Because government can spend $8000 per student (many a lot more) and its free, parents sent their kids there.

Because competition was taken out (try competing against someone with such resources), wages were kept very low for teachers. The teachers reacted and organized, as is their right. You thus get the monopolies you decry.

So you guys are blaming the victim. To defend against a ‘gang’ (which many of you kept voting for), teachers formed their own ‘gang’. Why are you so shocked by this? You voted for it, you embraced short-term thinking, and then are shocked when your victims fight back? Shocking!!

95

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Currently the teachers have the “freedom” to place their interests above and beyond the students, and they do so on a regular basis.[/quote]

How so?

You wouldn’t expect your doctor or lawyer to put your interests above their own. Should a doctor sacrifice their child’s education to pay for your liver transplant? Should a lawyer turn down a case where they could pay off their own mortgage, to defend a penniless bum in court?

You know, the old saw about teachers ‘shouldn’t be in it for the money’ doesn’t fix the transmission, put a replacement roof on the house, or fund one’s retirement.

Nope. It surely doesn’t.

Funny how everyone is supposed to have their self-interest at heart, but not teachers.
[/quote]

HH I’ve had two kids go through the public school system I’ve seen the abuse first hand.

  1. Extending school hours to rationalize a pay raise. They extended the school hours so that the kids are going to school in the dark 7:00AM!

  2. Putting in their contract that they have first refusal to coach any sports team regardless of experience or training in that sport. Needless to say we have losing teams and morale is in the toilet.

  3. Making it virtually impossible to fire any teacher unless that teacher actually commits a crime.

  4. Elementary school teachers, Gym and Art teachers alike, making over 75-K some at close to 100-K!

Honestly, they’re a bunch of bandits and the entire community is sick of them. They do all this under the guise of helping the children. In reality they are using the kids as a shield to milk the system and cause our taxes to go through the roof.

There is no group of “professionals” more loathsome than teachers.
[/quote]

You know Zeb you could have home schooled them…[/quote]

Saving up for the Disney vacation was more important.

96

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I don’t teach for the benefit of my students. I teach because I, me, myself, ENJOY doing so. I’m glad if someone benefits from my teaching (they do, thousands) but those people and their well-being is most definitely NOT my primary motivation.

My teaching, done my way.

I don’t take orders. I don’t compromise. I live and work for myself. And because of this, because I love what I do passionately, I produce top quality graduates.

Until you understand this and understand how grieviously you are infected with altruism, we are speaking different languages.

My work, done my way…or not at all.
[/quote]

Please Mr. Rand. Besides having a hardon for one of the ugliest, shittiest “philosophers” in the history of the world, you take your marching orders from a fucking union.

I love it.[/quote]

The people she attacked, Like Comte and Marx were way shittier.

She is not even in the top 100 of shitty.

She is just very emotional and pretends that she is not.

97

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Honestly, they’re a bunch of bandits and the entire community is sick of them. They do all this under the guise of helping the children. In reality they are using the kids as a shield to milk the system and cause our taxes to go through the roof.

There is no group of “professionals” more loathsome than teachers.
[/quote]

Wow.

98

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

There is no group of “professionals” more loathsome than teachers.
[/quote]

That’s what monopolies do. Our society created a monopoly in education. Because government can spend $8000 per student (many a lot more) and its free, parents sent their kids there.

Because competition was taken out (try competing against someone with such resources), wages were kept very low for teachers. The teachers reacted and organized, as is their right. You thus get the monopolies you decry.

So you guys are blaming the victim. To defend against a ‘gang’ (which many of you kept voting for), teachers formed their own ‘gang’. Why are you so shocked by this? You voted for it, you embraced short-term thinking, and then are shocked when your victims fight back? Shocking!!
[/quote]

I agree that all unions were origianlly formed out of necessity to make sure the work place was safe and in some way fair with wages. I am a big fan of smaller government, and the government is who has caused all the issues with the teachers unions and the monopoly created. Another issue is there is a forced unionism and if you do not join the union they will make your life hell, this is in all sectors. The unions are doing to managment what management did to them, but to the Nth degree worse. I pay almost $5k a year in school distric taxes on my house. They also want me to buy all their crappy fund raiser stuff, and then also give to the PTO. Now the schools are charging for field trips that are manditory. I would prefer to not pay any of that and send my child to a private school that will actually educate my children. Not all teachers are bad. My issue is the union lumping the good and the bad teachers together, and the districs not being able to fire the bad teachers.

99

[quote]ZEB wrote:

HH I’ve had two kids go through the public school system I’ve seen the abuse first hand.

  1. Extending school hours to rationalize a pay raise. They extended the school hours so that the kids are going to school in the dark 7:00AM!

  2. Putting in their contract that they have first refusal to coach any sports team regardless of experience or training in that sport. Needless to say we have losing teams and morale is in the toilet.

  3. Making it virtually impossible to fire any teacher unless that teacher actually commits a crime.

  4. Elementary school teachers, Gym and Art teachers alike, making over 75-K some at close to 100-K!

Honestly, they’re a bunch of bandits and the entire community is sick of them. They do all this under the guise of helping the children. In reality they are using the kids as a shield to milk the system and cause our taxes to go through the roof.

There is no group of “professionals” more loathsome than teachers.
[/quote]

Looking through your list Zeb I’m trying to figure out whats wrong here.

On #1. I don’t see the issue with kids being to school by 7? In high school my day started by 7:15.

#2 The thing about the sports teams, the group here in general is against paying any higher taxes correct? So wouldn’t going out and hiring outside coaches that aren’t teachers lead to another salary and more taxes?

#3 Having worked in management for a large corporation it is almost impossible to fire just about anybody anymore. Every company and HR department is so leary about termination unless it is for a crime.

#4 Just looking at my state the average teacher pay is between $31k and $73k (I would guess that this information is a couple years old). But doesn’t it stand to reason that if an individual puts in the time to achieve an advanced degree and further that degree (masters) that they can and should get paid more?

Isn’t that what as parents we are teaching our kids? Go to school work hard, play hard, go to college, get that degree and get that high paying job.

I’m aware that some unions use tactics I don’t agree with (sick outs and so forth). Also some are not willling to accept cuts during these times that the rest of us have.

I’m just finding it funny that in the end what we all want is the best for our children (my boys hate that I’m on their ass about homework and keeping up). But I think putting all the blame on the teachers is wrong. There are a lot of lazy parents out there that look at the schools as a government funded babysitting service.

100

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Currently the teachers have the “freedom” to place their interests above and beyond the students, and they do so on a regular basis.[/quote]

How so?

You wouldn’t expect your doctor or lawyer to put your interests above their own. Should a doctor sacrifice their child’s education to pay for your liver transplant? Should a lawyer turn down a case where they could pay off their own mortgage, to defend a penniless bum in court?

You know, the old saw about teachers ‘shouldn’t be in it for the money’ doesn’t fix the transmission, put a replacement roof on the house, or fund one’s retirement.

Nope. It surely doesn’t.

Funny how everyone is supposed to have their self-interest at heart, but not teachers.
[/quote]

HH I’ve had two kids go through the public school system I’ve seen the abuse first hand.

  1. Extending school hours to rationalize a pay raise. They extended the school hours so that the kids are going to school in the dark 7:00AM!

  2. Putting in their contract that they have first refusal to coach any sports team regardless of experience or training in that sport. Needless to say we have losing teams and morale is in the toilet.

  3. Making it virtually impossible to fire any teacher unless that teacher actually commits a crime.

  4. Elementary school teachers, Gym and Art teachers alike, making over 75-K some at close to 100-K!

Honestly, they’re a bunch of bandits and the entire community is sick of them. They do all this under the guise of helping the children. In reality they are using the kids as a shield to milk the system and cause our taxes to go through the roof.

There is no group of “professionals” more loathsome than teachers.
[/quote]

You know Zeb you could have home schooled them…[/quote]

Saving up for the Disney vacation was more important.
[/quote]

To suggest that we should not take advantage of the public school system for which we are drastically over charged is a nice display of thoughtless arrogance on your part. I never want to see you accuse anyone on this board of such behavior. My wife and I worked hard with in the system to try to make positive changes for the children and we were thwarted at every turn by THE TEACHERS UNION!