[quote]Sloth wrote:
I think our soldiers generally fight with a noble cause in mind. In this case, they’re fighting for democracy. [/quote]
That’s just the point, though, Sloth. All soldiers fight with a noble cause in mind. It’s the only thing that allows them to commit ignoble deeds.
And “democracy” is just as much of a religion to an American as Islam is to a Muslim.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I think our soldiers generally fight with a noble cause in mind. In this case, they’re fighting for democracy.
That’s just the point, though, Sloth. All soldiers fight with a noble cause in mind. It’s the only thing that allows them to commit ignoble deeds.
And “democracy” is just as much of a religion to an American as Islam is to a Muslim.[/quote]
That’s what I mean when I say it shouldn’t be our fight. Even if an idea like democracy could be objectively noble, it isn’t cause for our troops to fight on some other peoples’ behalf. If Iraqi’s don’t value this ideal enough to fight the forces of theocratic oppresion, or a secular military dictatorship, that’s their loss. And now it’s ours. We should call their representatives and security commanders together and say, “There, you’ve a got democracy. See if you can keep it.”
In short. I believe it’s a noble cause, but not our fight.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Well can argue semantics all day, but here is my take on it: all wars are about economics, but the soldier fights for his religion.
Unless a man is a psychopath, he will probably have a hard time killing another man, burning down his house, raping his wife and daughter, and killing his children… unless he believes his actions are sanctioned by God.
If he has been convinced by his leaders that the enemy before him is also an enemy of his God, then his actions are justified in his own mind.
[/quote]
OK, I follow. Yes, many, many wars were fought for religion. But later you say that democracy is a religion to some. Fighting for Democracy is different than fighting to spread Christianity which would be the case in a religious war.
That is my whole problem with this arguement. A Christian may fighting on behalf of Democracy in Iraq, but he is surely not doing it to convert the people of Iraq to Christianity.
People fight not just on behalf of their God, but on behalf of any belief system they feel is superior. The Commies in Russia who killed the Orthodox did not do so because a belief in a God, they did so because they belief in Communism took the place of their God.
Like you said, maybe in the future, people will begin killing to spread the word of Scientology. Who knows. It is the logical outcome of unchecked fanaticism of any kind.
Maybe the arguement should be were more people killed spreading Christianity or Islam or any of their many sects? I’d say it’s pretty close.
Atheism will be the future’s biggest killer. Mark my words people of the now!
[quote]Sloth wrote:
We should call their representatives and security commanders together and say, “There, you’ve a got democracy. See if you can keep it.”
[/quote]
We probably should have done that back in April of 2005.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
If you wanted to do a side-to-side body count comparison, I daresay Christianity would come out way ahead, not necessarily because Christians are more vicious than Muslims, but because they’ve been at it longer, and are more technologically efficient.
I disagree. The Muslims were more skilled at warfare than the Europeans ever were and by the time the Europeans began making technological improvements, the Turks did likewise and kept up. Ottoman Turks: Best army, best navy in Europe for 300 years. The reason they did not conquer all of Europe was because their Empire went the other way into the Middle East and Africa.
Not if we’re comparing two thousand years of Christianity to 1400 years of Islam. Also, I suspect you’re only counting Muslim deaths by Christian hands versus Christian deaths by Muslim hands. I’m counting the whole enchilada: Muslims vs. everyone else on one side, and Christians vs. everyone else on the other.
I’m counting deaths in the name of Christianity and Islam. The Colonization of the world by Europeans started out with a religious zeal, then changed to one of pure economics and natural resources. That they traded slaves, conquered India and parts of Africa had little to do with religion and more to do with riches, would you agree or not?
The war between the Catholics and Protestants was a religious war. That I am in agreement with. I also agree with the inquisition and war against Jews, but as the Middle Ages ended, the religious reasons for conquest had changed, no? It was replaced by nationalism.
The deaths by Muslims were always done with religious overtones and not only took place in Africa and the Middle East, but parts of Asia Minor, Asia, Russia, Europe, India ect. Their history is one of unending religious warfare.
That is my take.
[/quote]
That is incorrect for many reasons:
A) The European religious wars could only start after the end of the Dark Ages because before that there were no protestants.
B) Nationalism became the next big thing to justify mass slaughter but not until the late 18th century.
C) The Ottoman empire turned to the ME and Africa because they could not hope to invade Europe, though they tried several times.
The city state of Venice had a higher GDP and a deadlier fleet than the Ottoman Empire. In other words, something about Western civilization was far superior to fanatical Islam and a system where everyone is a slave but the Sultan.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Atheism will be the future’s biggest killer. Mark my words people of the now![/quote]
Yes, because all those fanatics not believing in an afterlife will fight and kill to make you see it their way…
Because it all makes so much sense in the light of Atheism…
Die Believer!
There is no God and no one was his prophet!
[quote]orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Atheism will be the future’s biggest killer. Mark my words people of the now!
Yes, because all those fanatics not believing in an afterlife will fight and kill to make you see it their way…
Because it all makes so much sense in the light of Atheism…
Die Believer!
There is no God and no one was his prophet!
[/quote]
ohh ohh…let me lead the army, I have been called upon by no god to do so…and I can prove it!
[quote]orion wrote:
There is no God and no one was his prophet!
[/quote]
I suppose the atheist terrorists could scream “Laa ilahu akbar!” (No God is Great!")
And what about an apatheist?
That’s someone who believes that God exists, but that He just doesn’t give a shit.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
pat wrote:
It is self destructing. It is divided. For it to survive it must change it’s way. This radicalism is a cancer and that cancer is spreading. There is good in islam and those practitioners of it need to stand up and condemn the violence and hate. Left unchecked, it will consume them all. This is a certainty, it can not stand as is.
Precisely the comment I would have expected a Jewish or Muslim observer to have made about Christianity at the start of the Thirty Years’ War.[/quote]
And a change took place. It couldn’t and didn’t stand as it was.
[quote]pat wrote:
And a change took place. It couldn’t and didn’t stand as it was.[/quote]
And still the conflict between Catholic and Protestant continues.
But if the evolution of Islam continues at the same rate as the evolution of Christianity, then I suppose we can expect a continental war between Sunni and Shia in the next 190 years. By that time, it will be the year 1618 by the Muslim calendar.
[quote]orion wrote:
That is incorrect for many reasons:
A) The European religious wars could only start after the end of the Dark Ages because before that there were no protestants.
B) Nationalism became the next big thing to justify mass slaughter but not until the late 18th century.
C) The Ottoman empire turned to the ME and Africa because they could not hope to invade Europe, though they tried several times.
The city state of Venice had a higher GDP and a deadlier fleet than the Ottoman Empire. In other words, something about Western civilization was far superior to fanatical Islam and a system where everyone is a slave but the Sultan.
[/quote]
Yeah, right, after the dark ages, more religious wars errupted. That is true. What about the period where the French, British, Spanish, Portugese colonized half of the world? Was this done for religion? (maybe at first, with the conquistadors but this later changed.)
I would call this nationalism because they were doing it to enrich their countries and it began before the 1800’s. The British Empire was created for the British, not for the sake of Christianity. Maybe Nationalism is the wrong word here.
The Ottomans became engaged in wars against Persia and Russia. They did not attempt to attack Europe again, but on the other hand, Europe never conquered them.
And yes, eventually something in the West WAS superior, the West began to advance as the Muslim nations declined. But still, the Ottomans held a vast empire.
[quote]Molotov_Coktease wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Atheism will be the future’s biggest killer. Mark my words people of the now!
Yes, because all those fanatics not believing in an afterlife will fight and kill to make you see it their way…
Because it all makes so much sense in the light of Atheism…
Die Believer!
There is no God and no one was his prophet!
ohh ohh…let me lead the army, I have been called upon by no god to do so…and I can prove it![/quote]
You only want to ride naked on a white stallion, covered in blood.
I see right through you.
Since that would make a powerful image and we need our atheist Jeanne D´Arc, I might get back to you.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Yeah, right, after the dark ages, more religious wars errupted. That is true. What about the period where the French, British, Spanish, Portugese colonized half of the world? Was this done for religion? (maybe at first, with the conquistadors but this later changed.)
I would call this nationalism because they were doing it to enrich their countries and it began before the 1800’s. [/quote]
You must be very naive to think any other war has ever been waged for any other reason.
[quote]lixy wrote:
You must be very naive to think any other war has ever been waged for any other reason.[/quote]
Taken out of context, I would tend to agree.
But the arguement was about religious war, you know, like tearing down a church and putting up a mosque, or making the Dome of the Rock into a church. Or, like the Croats did during WWII, convert the Serbs to Catholicism and then execute them.
Maybe it was for economics, but it sure had religious overtones.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
I believe Orion is, like me, a staunch friend of America even if you can’t recognize that.
About you, I could perhaps believe that. Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion about Orion, but it couldn’t possibly be any more different from mine. And, FWIW, I’d venture to say – with a fair amount of confidence – the overwhelming majority of Americans here would disagree with your opinion of him.
[/quote]
Well than you and a significant portion of America will continue to not get it.
Don´t worry.
They hate you for your freedom.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
pat wrote:
And a change took place. It couldn’t and didn’t stand as it was.
And still the conflict between Catholic and Protestant continues.
But if the evolution of Islam continues at the same rate as the evolution of Christianity, then I suppose we can expect a continental war between Sunni and Shia in the next 190 years. By that time, it will be the year 1618 by the Muslim calendar.[/quote]
Hell, even in northern Ireland they managed to make peace, finally. Where ever there are differences there will be conflict. Kooks exist every where as well. Can you tell me that the body count between any perceived “Christian” conflicts is greater than what is being perpetrated greater islam…Do you want to do a comparison / contrast?
Besides, atheists still hold the world record for murder. I do not think that will ever be topped.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I think our soldiers generally fight with a noble cause in mind. In this case, they’re fighting for democracy.
That’s just the point, though, Sloth. All soldiers fight with a noble cause in mind. It’s the only thing that allows them to commit ignoble deeds.
And “democracy” is just as much of a religion to an American as Islam is to a Muslim.[/quote]
It can’t be, we are a republic, not a democracy.