Honestly, my next question is what’s your strength level? When I thought I had a lot of weak points, getting on a program, biasing what I want to grow, and getting stronger fixed a lot. Like a lot of people here, I saw good gains on 5/3/1. You could do the basic template and add things as you see fit. Focusing on increasing rep quality worked pretty well too
I went through something similar to this when I wanted to run conjugate. I did a lot of research and then one day realized something a lot simpler made by someone else will get me where I want
I’m no coach or super advanced but that’s what worked for me. Years of good gains gets you better than inconsistent periods of great gains
Im big, not strong but not necessarily weak. Lets just say, Im not lifting my bodyweight on any lifts because Ive been focusing a lot on BB stuff. I also took a break. Yesterday, I lifted 5 x 5 and found myself too be way stronger than what Ive been. In the past I did powerlifting but I didnt get bigger and since then I went to bodybuilding route. I gained a lot of size but Im not that strong, and Im fluffy looking to the trained eye.
You are absolutely right. Im going to check out the 5/3/1. Thanks for sharing your experiences. Thats true, Im trying to be more consistent.
No I don’t think DE work and 5x5 are the same for force development. 12 sets of 2 reps on box Squat done with 50-60% load and 25% accommodating resistance with 30-45 seconds rest between sets is a far different stimulus than 5x5 at 70-85% with 3 mins rest between sets. Both work a different region of the strength/velocity curve as I understand it. Also they likely effect different energy systems in your body more than another. I have not read any of the formal literature on the topic, so what do I know really, but from experience I have done both methods and both will build strength. Is one better for building muscle size…probably, and you can probably guess which one too.
I was merely trying to say if you are wanting to drop something from a conjugate program the dynamic work seems to be the stuff that gets replaced with something else rather than the max effort work.
But in the end, it’s your path. Just trying to throw some ideas and content your way to consider.
If you’re a very wobbly lifter and you feel like your exercises are limited more by your technique/stability than muscular fatigue, I think it’s best to use backdowns
Regularly rotating lifts isn’t really necessary for a lot of lifters, but it can be very engaging and helps keep it interesting
Thanks. Ill probably post a log soon when I get everything perfected. Thanks for the advice. yoU guys gave me a lot of great sources to consider and glean from
Doing speed work seems like much more fun than 5 x 5. Which one will be better for pushing power for the chest, 5 x 5 or 6 x 2 with submaximal loads conjugate style?
Yeah, I have no problem doing the same exercise to be honest. I dont feel comfortable changing one exercise that can elicit more benefits for another one that isnt so effective.
Most reasonable exercises are equally effective over 5-10 years.
You can think of rotation as a means to improve the breadth of your strength, whilst specialising in one lift as a means to improve your peak. Both are important
The speed adaptation comes from the load and velocity of each rep, not the set-rep scheme. Assuming you’re using 70-80% 1RM loads (either bar weight only or bar + accommodating resistance), resting appropriately between sets and accelerating the bar as fast as possible every rep, both 5 x 5 and 6 x 2 will be approximately equivalent to each other. That said, if you’re interested in the nuance:
5 x 5 is more overall volume, providing 25 reps. Generally this is the upper limit for total speed/CAT volume per body part, per session.
6 x 2 is fewer reps per set, which will lead to less velocity loss over the duration of the set (or, a higher average velocity for all reps over the workout).
For speed/CAT work, any prescription in the realm of 5-12 x 2-5 reps can be appropriate
Good points. I think I may stick with the 6 x 2 method with 50% of my 1RM. It also seems more fun.
For Maximum Effort, would you think that lifting very high reps of 90% for the standard 6-10 x 2 and then use a standard bodybuilding sets for a second exercise?
For maximum effort, Ill have to figure out what to do and Ill reconfigure things to begin next week but Im going to get all of this volume down too because these workouts are too long and I dont want to run out of steam. I want to be able to give it my all for all of these exercises.
Do you have any thoughts on exercises I can drop? Some exercises may hit other exercises well making others superfluous in their eyes.
Remember DE work is nearly always at 70-80% if straight weight, or 50-60% on the bar with an extra 20ish% from bands or chains.
I spent too much time doing super light DE work as a beginner - trust me, it’s a waste of time. Use the 70-80% range.
10 x 2 is probably not going to be true max effort. 3-6 x 2-3 is probably more appropriate if that’s the avenue you’re going for. However, I provided my recommendation for cycling ME work above, that’s my preferred method. For newer lifters, I just add slow eccentrics and/or pauses, particularly on the 2RM and 3RM weeks to encourage good technique
Yes, about half of your suggested exercises were pretty pointless. Have a look at the resources I provided, which will give you a much clearer idea.
Max Effort that I know is usually work up to a 5RM, 3RM, 2RM, or 1RM in as few sets as possible. While also doing 2- 3 lifts at 90% or more of that 1RM. You shouldn’t be able to do multiple sets of ME work…otherwise it’s not Maximum Effort. You should be sort of exhausted after the ME lift and ready to move onto the accessory work. Sort of like “thank goodness that crap is over with!”
Something like warming up and ramping to your 1RM in 7 sets. This way the ME lift gets done quickly and you don’t wear yourself out with multiple warmup sets. on the way up you try to space the attempts so that you hit at least 90+% for 2-3 lifts. And thus avoid having to do 3x back off sets at 90% after doing a 1RM.
As an example, if your max effort lift for the day is SSB Squat 1RM. And say you get to 445lb. Your seven sets could be 135x5, 225x3, 315x2, 365x1, 405x1, 425x1, 445x1. You could do more backoff sets if you want or just end it there and try again next time with a different lift variation for the next time. When this exact ME lift comes around in your training you try to beat your Prev. 1RM by 2.5-5lb…even if you can do more. If you get too greedy the idea is you will crash and burn eventually.
Thanks for the information. Im leaning your way.Im going to use the 5 x 5 for dynamic work and it also adds a lot of volume for a hypertrophic stimulus. I have a decent amount of size but a high body fat, so I dont need to work on my size, so I think Im going to focus on my strength for now, so going your way seems like the best way.
I dont have the bands and chains for accommodating resistance.
You think they are pointless? I need Pull-ups for my lats. Im trying to be strong but I still want to include other exercises for aesthetic purposes. One challenge Im having is that all of those exercises seem appropriate.
Can you structure your exercises so that you can rotate in some exercises in place of others after a few weeks of training and the progression on them starts to go stale?
For instance, can you structure you daily program so you have a few different categories of lifts:
Main lift is your main compound movement for the day done ME or 5x5 as you indicated interest in before.
Supplemental is added lift variation that can help bring up your main lift. Something typically done with a barbell but not always. Usually also a compound lift.
Then a few “assistance” exercises that are smaller in nature. Easier to recover from; may be isolation exercises.
In such a case your Upper Body workout could be Bench Press (Main), DB Incline Press (Supp), Pull-Ups (assist 1), dips (assist 2), and Ab Wheel (assist 3) for instance. In a workout like this does adding in Lat Pulldowns and Tricep Pushdowns really need to be added? Dii ok Ed it seem redundant? Would it do anything different than is already covered here by other things? It will take away from your recovery resources so think of adding in anything as a trade off. The above workout could easily be done in 45-60 mins. If you added 2-3 more exercises that’s at least another 10-15 mins and what are you getting out of it that you can’t get on your next day of training? Does it likely prevent you from being your best the next time you walk into the gym?
Once you get completely bored of chin ups or burned out you could rotate in Lat pull in place of chin ups. If your workouts are getting intense on bench but you want to keep progressing maybe you want to back off a little on something else to give you a bit of lee-way to keep pushing the bench hard. Maybe in that case rotate in the Tricep pushdowns instead of dips.
Basically try taking another look at your original post with that sort of frame of mind. Re-read what everyone else posted and referred you to and see if that gives you some ideas. It’s your training so you can make the right decisions to work things in and out. Otherwise, there are a lot of already built programs from coaches that you can run as well.
All the exercises you listed are good, but it’s not appropriate to do them all at once
Instead, rotate through them every 2-4 weeks, within the contraints of the templates I provide. Pull-ups, for example, could be used as the “upper pull” exercise on either upper body day
Thanks so much for the wealth of information. I did more research yesterday based on the information you and others have provided as well as the videos and i have been made aware of a lot of things. I was completely confused. So the main lift is the lift that gets rotated every two weeks. I was adding lifts to try to help the main lift when it should of been rotated every two weeks. I also thought the max effort lift was done for 8-10 sets, but its no that high. Im going to do the max effort day and then for dynamic effort do 5 x 5. Im going to use the structure you have provided but i might add more exercises. Dont be mad at me.
This is what caused a lot confusion for me. This was provided by ExRx. Its a sample workout. I basically tried to copy and paste exercises within the template with minimum research done.
I think i know how to create a better workout based on your sources and on the template you have provided. Ill show you a final draft and if you are willing, tell me what you recommend. But thanks for being kind enough to give me all of these sources and even provide a template.