Rest times and number of sets

This is a programme I’ve put together. Been refining it over the last couple of months and pretty much where I want it to be now

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I want to be in the 10-12 range so if I drop the weight I’ll end up being quite a bit out of that

Paul Carter had a line that I appreciated. Essentially, you want to engineer as many “first sets” as possible.

would this only apply to multiple sets to failure of the same exercise?

totally agree

would this only apply to volume training instead of single set training?

but in time, would you not be back to the 10-12 rep range?

This begs the question: How many proper sets maximizes hypertrophy?

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To be fair, one of the authors of this reference has conducted a couple studies that found no upper limit to the dose-response ratio between volume and hypertrophy.

I feel this argument conflates most efficient with maximal, and they’re not necessarily the same thing.

I do the same with protein intake, for example. There appears to be a huge point of diminishing returns somewhere around .62g/ lbs body weight, and another dip around .8g, but there’s also evidence that there is still additional benefit up to 1.3g (at least). The most efficient dose is plenty for me and I think almost everyone, but is not necessarily the most anyone would ever want to consume.

We’ve dropped our various points before; I know where we disagree and I’m not trying to convince you otherwise, just throwing a slightly different point of view into this discussion.

There’s also a practical benefit to higher volume training when you just can’t “bring it,” but that’s definitely not the point of this thread.

I’m not against the lower volume/ higher intensity training, and it likely is a preferred path for most of us; I just don’t think it has to be the answer.

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Exactly… frequency > volume

The more volume = more fatigue

Example - 1 set done 3 or 4 times weekly is more beneficial than 3 to 4 sets in 1 workout because of the fatigue mechanisms

IIRC they counted edema and swelling as “hypertrophy”… which is disingenuous, or it was studied in noobs.

That’s something that’s definitely individual…HOWEVER… I’d err on the side of lower volumes and higher intensity as it appears most legit data / meta-analysis are bearing it out

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Going to experiment with higher protein for a while…well over 200 grams at 184 pounds just to see the outcomes. If our theories don’t hold up in application, they’re no good

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I agree with this. In this experiment, there may be indirect benefits: i.e. if I’m eating more protein, I’m eating less of something else (well, maybe…).

I’ve only ever heard others say it was a big benefit despite what studies have shown… so many mechanisms to consider and of course the unknowns

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This is about as completely counter to my leg training as it can be. During my 40’s I trained only legs on Wednesday. I did nothing to failure, but did many sets of 10 reps. Workouts lasted a little over an hour on my thighs (my knees required a slow warmup for my patella tendons.) I was training on and off AAS.

My quads got no other stimulation during the week. I did do two sets of 10 reps of hinge style deadlifts on Monday. Both sets probably 3 RIR.

Developed thighs was far from my genetic gift. In 1977 I won a contest and Most Muscular and all the body part trophies but Arms and Legs. I worked hard to build my thighs, moving a lot of weight many sets on 10 reps. All my thigh sets were 10 reps with no plans to be failure. A few times I did miss the last rep, but not many.

Every time I see your training philosophy thoughts, I begin to believe that I built a pretty good physique in spite of my training methods.

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I’ve been using the Big Beyond Belief training program for the last month or so and I’ve really enjoyed it. It employs similar training principles to Fortitude Training, another program that I love dearly. All training sessions are under 45 minutes. It’s a high intensity, high frequency, moderate volume program that aims to keep you in the “Optimal Training Zone”. So you ramp up volume and reduce rest times (to an extent) during your ramp, pushing into a functional overreach and then backing back down to allow for a “rebound” And then another ramp. This is done through Fortitude Training as well with the “Progressive Blasts” and “Intensive Cruises”. I find it to really be a great strategy for muscle growth that has worked well for me.

You can search “Big Beyond Belief” on Google and you can get a free PDF of the book. I got a physical copy of it from eBay, but this is probably the best way to get it these days as Optimum Training Systems isn’t really a thing anymore and the Kindle PDF is formatted horribly. The Archive dot org version seems great. Also the Fortitude Training ebook is only $20 and it’s probably the best value in Bodybuilding for how much great information you get!

Big Beyond Belief is a great starting point because it teaches so much about how to understand the different training phases and how to learn to train instinctively, which can then be applied to Fortitude Training. It’s important that you understand that you need to take your sets to failure and be ready to train brutally hard! But a lot can be accomplished in 45 minutes.

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I did sub-optimal shit for YEARS…like 30 years. You can make progress many ways, but we should apply OPTIMAL methods for the best outcomes.

I did GVT 10 x 10… holy edemas. Drop sets, cluster sets, wave loading, high volume, you name it… I was unaware of what I was unaware of, so to speak.

Great point, btw… a ton of people look good IN SPITE OF their methods… we all know them and secretly hate them :slight_smile:

To failure or 1 or 2 RIR… 100%