Greetings from Denmark Thibs!
Until recently, I was under the impression that no serious/effective program would have you train more than 2 days in a row. But now I see people using your layer system working out 6 days a week, and I really don’t know what to make of it?
[quote]Bue wrote:
Greetings from Denmark Thibs!
Until recently, I was under the impression that no serious/effective program would have you train more than 2 days in a row. But now I see people using your layer system working out 6 days a week, and I really don’t know what to make of it?[/quote]
It really depends on too many factors to list in a short post. Of primary concern is what you consider a “workout”, because a lot of guys training at Westside have been doing GPP workouts with weights for decades on top of a 4 or 5 day split…which essentially makes them train 6 or 7 days a week in some form. Another primary concern is how much you eat and how much you use recovery aids from supplements to sleeping longer to massages etc. Yet another issue is how you organize your training–explosive lifts generate less recovery stress than slow strength lifts (think deadlift or squat).
So it’s a variety of things.
I will say for myself that I have been training 6-7 days a week on and off for years now, before Layers came out. It goes in phases based on my schedule and stress obviously. It is about how you train. If I lift lower body on Monday and Wednesday, but swim a hard session on Tuesday also, I have trained all 3 days in a row. Or if I train upper body isolation on Tuesday, that’s not too much of a strain on recovery but it is still weights.
Hell, Olympic lifters often train 6 days a week. I am pretty sure that counts as a serious training program.
I’m squatting 5-6 days a week right now. Some days that’s all I do though, and I’m done in 20-30 minutes, so is that a workout? You see what I’m saying?
[quote]Bue wrote:
Greetings from Denmark Thibs!
Until recently, I was under the impression that no serious/effective program would have you train more than 2 days in a row. But now I see people using your layer system working out 6 days a week, and I really don’t know what to make of it?[/quote]
If you look at elite olympic lifters, they train 6 days a week, at least 3 of these days normally being 2 workouts a day and these sessions almost always include a snatch a clean & jerk and a squat variation.
You have also gymnasts who train 30-40 hours a week. Heck, when my wife was a gymnast she was far from elite and she was training 25 hours a week and our niece, who just started is already up to 20 hours a week!
And this is not exclusive to these athletes… I have worked with athletes from 27 sports and in most sports they train at least 5 days a week, more often 6. And many times it’s 2 sessions a day… for example one lifting session and one technique practice or track workout.
I also work with tons of Crossfit athletes and the vast majority of them train every day, often doing one Crossfit WOD and one olympic lifting session a day.
But understand one thing: these guys train for performance not maximum fatigue. This is different than going to absolute failure as many bodybuilders do.
Now, I personally believe in training for performance to achieve a lean and muscular body, which is why I like to train people like athletes not like traditional bodybuilders.
Another thing to consider… bodybuilders are generally out of shape. They have a lot of muscle and are lean but have no endurance or work capacity. As a result their recovery between workouts is much slower than highly conditioned athletes. The more you are “in shape” (general physical condition) the more often you can train because your body is good at recovering.
Thanks guys! Never knew that being more fit would translate to better recovery - That’s something to think about 
google werner gunthor, shot putter. they have some cool videos of his training.
[quote]domcib wrote:
google werner gunthor, shot putter. they have some cool videos of his training. [/quote]
When I was in college, that video was actually presented in one of our classes and greatly influenced my own training and methodologies.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]domcib wrote:
google werner gunthor, shot putter. they have some cool videos of his training. [/quote]
When I was in college, that video was actually presented in one of our classes and greatly influenced my own training and methodologies.[/quote]
thats so awesome.
i used to do a lot of that stuff in college. i thre the shot, disc, jav, and weight.
i did some sort of training every day, and many times multiple times a day.
lifting, throwing, and all kinds of crazy drills.
and honestly, i dont remember ever being beat up. we even did bounding on the stadium steps. i never managed to make it past halfway around the stadium.
THAT was crazy.
did u ever notice that the worlds best throwers had more of that power look? they wer leaner and more athletic.
now you got me thinking of how i can incorporate running into my training.
On the “bodybuilders out of shape” point I just wanted to add my observation:
I’ve been going to this gym consistently for the last year and there are two individuals who have that “bodybuilder” look: a younger asian guy (my age) with somewhat “fluffy” looking muscle and an older black guy with substantial development. I’d say I’m “leaner” than both of them judging by abdominal definition but their upper bodies look more puffy/“bodybuilderish”.
WHat blows my mind is they both use MIND NUMBINGLY light weight. I talk to them all the time and they literally never touch the big movements. Asian guy loves 10 lbs shoulder laterals and machine curl and extensions and the black guy pumps away on machines (maybe 1/3 the stack at best)
I see them in the gym almost everyday, doing the same thing - girl weights and pumping away on stuff that don’t look bad ass. Yet they’re by and by “larger” than me despite my being lighter in body weight and doing obscene olympic lifts and compund stuff. They also have very developed traps which doesn’t make sense. i dont’ even see them shrugging or doing deadlifts.
I’d be curious to hear CT’s or other vet’s take on this. I guess point being - “effective bodybuilding training” may be moot when “everything” else is not in order and the gymnast/o-lift style training for performance is the ONLY viable path for naturals…
Because I’ve done the high rep / “targetted” tension jazz (serge nubret / focusing purely on pump) for months on end and I literally look like a soft pile of crap after wards (:
One more time, I couldn’t hear you.
[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
On the “bodybuilders out of shape” point I just wanted to add my observation:
I’ve been going to this gym consistently for the last year and there are two individuals who have that “bodybuilder” look: a younger asian guy (my age) with somewhat “fluffy” looking muscle and an older black guy with substantial development. I’d say I’m “leaner” than both of them judging by abdominal definition but their upper bodies look more puffy/“bodybuilderish”.
WHat blows my mind is they both use MIND NUMBINGLY light weight. I talk to them all the time and they literally never touch the big movements. Asian guy loves 10 lbs shoulder laterals and machine curl and extensions and the black guy pumps away on machines (maybe 1/3 the stack at best)
I see them in the gym almost everyday, doing the same thing - girl weights and pumping away on stuff that don’t look bad ass. Yet they’re by and by “larger” than me despite my being lighter in body weight and doing obscene olympic lifts and compund stuff. They also have very developed traps which doesn’t make sense. i dont’ even see them shrugging or doing deadlifts.
I’d be curious to hear CT’s or other vet’s take on this. I guess point being - “effective bodybuilding training” may be moot when “everything” else is not in order and the gymnast/o-lift style training for performance is the ONLY viable path for naturals…
Because I’ve done the high rep / “targetted” tension jazz (serge nubret / focusing purely on pump) for months on end and I literally look like a soft pile of crap after wards (: [/quote]
Aren’t you tired of ALWAYS comparing yourself to others, wondering why they are getting results and whatever, because I am CERTAINLY tired of earring about it!
This will be the last time I ever answer one of your questions about others and why they are getting results. And if you keep posting about it I’ll eventually stop answering any of your questions.
Listen, I like you. You are dedicated, smart (maybe too much for your own good) and really want to progress. But you have the worst possible attitude for long term progress.
So here are some thoughts, for the last time.
Also, maybe he has much better genetics for muscular development than you do. On average we find more black guys fitting that category. Heck, I’ve seen black guys develop better bodies only playing pick-up basketball as their only training than maybe dedicated lifters… a good friend of mine had the best physique in our school and all he did was play soccer.
Maybe he used to lift heavy things but because he is older he is only doing machines.
Who knows…
The asian guy… maybe he is using steroids, maybe he isn’t… some people are more genetically gifted for muscle mass (thinking that "he is Asian, I’m Asian, we should build muscle at the same rate doesn’t make any sense)… maybe the fact that you are leaner and always eat to stay super ripped makes him look rounder than you. Someone who is always in a caloric deficit will look flat and stringy. I remember when I competed in bodybuilding I would look A LOT bigger about 6 weeks out of a contest than at contest time. Getting lean is weird… getting leaner will make you look smaller at first (e.g. dropping from 18% to 12%), then it will make you look bigger (e.g. going from 12 to 8%) but eventually it will make you look smaller when you lose fullness. Maybe he is not under-eating like you are.
Even the least effective methods can build some muscle if you are dedicated. And some people respond better to different training methods. Every time you challenge the body muscle-wise you initiate a process that can potentially make you look better (if you fuel the body properly). With all the people I’ve worked with I’ve seen great bodies being built by performance training, powerlifting, bodybuilding, crossfit, etc.
Regardless, you should stop worrying about what others are doing that you aren’t and about what you can control. Worry about what works for you. You found that this pumping style of training didn’t work for you. Then why worry why some are getting results from it? You know it doesn’t work for you, you know other methods do, that should be the end of the discussion.
[quote]domcib wrote:
google werner gunthor, shot putter. they have some cool videos of his training. [/quote]
Préparation Physique : Werner Gunthor partie 1 - YouTube kind of cool. Don’t know what to call this row, but it is cool
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
[quote]domcib wrote:
google werner gunthor, shot putter. they have some cool videos of his training. [/quote]
Préparation Physique : Werner Gunthor partie 1 - YouTube kind of cool. Don’t know what to call this row, but it is cool
[/quote]
Yes, I actually wrote about it in an article. I called it the Gunthar row
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
[quote]domcib wrote:
google werner gunthor, shot putter. they have some cool videos of his training. [/quote]
Préparation Physique : Werner Gunthor partie 1 - YouTube kind of cool. Don’t know what to call this row, but it is cool
[/quote]
Yes, I actually wrote about it in an article. I called it the Gunthar row[/quote]
Love it!!!
ct, you would have been a bad ass shotputter…i would have loved to teach you.
[quote]domcib wrote:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
[quote]domcib wrote:
google werner gunthor, shot putter. they have some cool videos of his training. [/quote]
Préparation Physique : Werner Gunthor partie 1 - YouTube kind of cool. Don’t know what to call this row, but it is cool
[/quote]
Yes, I actually wrote about it in an article. I called it the Gunthar row[/quote]
Love it!!!
ct, you would have been a bad ass shotputter…i would have loved to teach you.
[/quote]
Dude… I’m 5’8" with short arms… ain’t gonna happen
Fair - thanks for the response CT and that was a whiny post from me. I’m done with that.
so, maybe not world class, but, don’t kid yourself, i had smaller guys than you beat the piss out of some monsters.
and the ny state record holder was 5’10, and about 180lbs. skinny little kid with a decent build. fast as heck. 67 footer, 180+ disc.
technique, speed, strength. in that order…hmm, doesnt that sound like olympic lifting also?
[quote]domcib wrote:
so, maybe not world class, but, don’t kid yourself, i had smaller guys than you beat the piss out of some monsters.
and the ny state record holder was 5’10, and about 180lbs. skinny little kid with a decent build. fast as heck. 67 footer, 180+ disc.
technique, speed, strength. in that order…hmm, doesnt that sound like olympic lifting also?[/quote]
this is not a crticism, so, please do not take it as such.
you are great at what you do! and you are humble!
these are good qualities
my mistake. no money in shotputting. only the thrill of watching the ball fly farther than it did before.
that doesnt excite too many people. just some weirdos like myself.
being a coach of coaches can be prestigious.
crossfit, on the other hand can be lucrative.
whatever turns you on.
i
i was 18 years old. i had this very muscular shotputter (cannonball ahoulders, etc.freak type) come over to me out of nowhere and ask me how much i benched. i said 280- it was my max at the time.
he said he benched 425. i said wow. thats great.
i asked him how far he threw. he said 54 feet. i said wow, thats great.
then he asked me how far i threw. i said 58 feet.
he walked away.
if you ever change your mind. let me know, ill come visit you. ill teach you the shot, and you can kick my ass in the weightroom. lol.
[quote]domcib wrote:
[quote]domcib wrote:
so, maybe not world class, but, don’t kid yourself, i had smaller guys than you beat the piss out of some monsters.
and the ny state record holder was 5’10, and about 180lbs. skinny little kid with a decent build. fast as heck. 67 footer, 180+ disc.
technique, speed, strength. in that order…hmm, doesnt that sound like olympic lifting also?[/quote]
this is not a crticism, so, please do not take it as such.
you are great at what you do! and you are humble!
these are good qualities
my mistake. no money in shotputting. only the thrill of watching the ball fly farther than it did before.
that doesnt excite too many people. just some weirdos like myself.
being a coach of coaches can be prestigious.
crossfit, on the other hand can be lucrative.
whatever turns you on.
i
i was 18 years old. i had this very muscular shotputter (cannonball ahoulders, etc.freak type) come over to me out of nowhere and ask me how much i benched. i said 280- it was my max at the time.
he said he benched 425. i said wow. thats great.
i asked him how far he threw. he said 54 feet. i said wow, thats great.
then he asked me how far i threw. i said 58 feet.
he walked away.
if you ever change your mind. let me know, ill come visit you. ill teach you the shot, and you can kick my ass in the weightroom. lol.
[/quote]
I actually enjoy the shot put… and do not think that I’m in it for the glory… I competed in olympic lifting for 6 years… which is even less popular than the shot put! I enjoy every single power and speed sport… I even wanted to try out for bobsleigh a few years back.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]domcib wrote:
[quote]domcib wrote:
so, maybe not world class, but, don’t kid yourself, i had smaller guys than you beat the piss out of some monsters.
and the ny state record holder was 5’10, and about 180lbs. skinny little kid with a decent build. fast as heck. 67 footer, 180+ disc.
technique, speed, strength. in that order…hmm, doesnt that sound like olympic lifting also?[/quote]
this is not a crticism, so, please do not take it as such.
you are great at what you do! and you are humble!
these are good qualities
my mistake. no money in shotputting. only the thrill of watching the ball fly farther than it did before.
that doesnt excite too many people. just some weirdos like myself.
being a coach of coaches can be prestigious.
crossfit, on the other hand can be lucrative.
whatever turns you on.
i
i was 18 years old. i had this very muscular shotputter (cannonball ahoulders, etc.freak type) come over to me out of nowhere and ask me how much i benched. i said 280- it was my max at the time.
he said he benched 425. i said wow. thats great.
i asked him how far he threw. he said 54 feet. i said wow, thats great.
then he asked me how far i threw. i said 58 feet.
he walked away.
if you ever change your mind. let me know, ill come visit you. ill teach you the shot, and you can kick my ass in the weightroom. lol.
[/quote]
I actually enjoy the shot put… and do not think that I’m in it for the glory… I competed in olympic lifting for 6 years… which is even less popular than the shot put! I enjoy every single power and speed sport… I even wanted to try out for bobsleigh a few years back.[/quote]
enjoy the shot put?
have you thrown it?
does this mean i gotta come visit you to get my ass kicked?
olympic lifting competitions. what’s the rules? do u get a total of 3 lifts?
or is it 3 attempts. at each weight?
[quote]domcib wrote:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]domcib wrote:
[quote]domcib wrote:
so, maybe not world class, but, don’t kid yourself, i had smaller guys than you beat the piss out of some monsters.
and the ny state record holder was 5’10, and about 180lbs. skinny little kid with a decent build. fast as heck. 67 footer, 180+ disc.
technique, speed, strength. in that order…hmm, doesnt that sound like olympic lifting also?[/quote]
this is not a crticism, so, please do not take it as such.
you are great at what you do! and you are humble!
these are good qualities
my mistake. no money in shotputting. only the thrill of watching the ball fly farther than it did before.
that doesnt excite too many people. just some weirdos like myself.
being a coach of coaches can be prestigious.
crossfit, on the other hand can be lucrative.
whatever turns you on.
i
i was 18 years old. i had this very muscular shotputter (cannonball ahoulders, etc.freak type) come over to me out of nowhere and ask me how much i benched. i said 280- it was my max at the time.
he said he benched 425. i said wow. thats great.
i asked him how far he threw. he said 54 feet. i said wow, thats great.
then he asked me how far i threw. i said 58 feet.
he walked away.
if you ever change your mind. let me know, ill come visit you. ill teach you the shot, and you can kick my ass in the weightroom. lol.
[/quote]
I actually enjoy the shot put… and do not think that I’m in it for the glory… I competed in olympic lifting for 6 years… which is even less popular than the shot put! I enjoy every single power and speed sport… I even wanted to try out for bobsleigh a few years back.[/quote]
enjoy the shot put?
have you thrown it?
does this mean i gotta come visit you to get my ass kicked?
olympic lifting competitions. what’s the rules? do u get a total of 3 lifts?
or is it 3 attempts. at each weight?[/quote]
You have 3 total attempts, just like in powerlifting. Not three attempt per given weight.