Hi there,
I was doing a lot of high performance mass workouts from CT lately (last 8 months) therefore I´m used to use his “rocket launch rep styple” when training.
what´s the recommendation for the rep style when doing the layer workouts? I couldn´t find an answer to that?1 Let me know… - thanks.
Same applies → Maximal force always. One caveat: layer system uses lots of lifts from pins, on these you still apply maximal force but you do it from a starting position of extreme tightness and “ramp” up the explosion (like a plane taking off).
For the ramp to max you pretty much do it the same way as with HP mass, the difference is that you go “further in the ramp”… instead of stopping when you start to lose some speed, you keep going to the max you can lift. So the last 2-3 sets might not be rocket launches, even though you are trying.
I do not like people equating the layer system with lift from pins. Although they are an option, the system itself can be used with any type of lifts. I haven’t done lifts from pins in a while myself.
Now, the layer system uses many different layer types… so there is not ONE type of layer system. For example if one is using the density approach I’m using now (80% of max ramp either for 30-50 reps as rapidly as possible or for as many total reps as possible in 8-10 minutes) the rocket launch style is the best option. But if you are doing things like clusters, which is very heavy work, then there might be some grinding and that’s fine as long as you use good technique.
So what I’m saying is that you always try to push as hard as possible, but the actual speed of the barbell will depend on the load. AND you do not necessarily stop when you are losing speed.
Seriously, don’t overcomplicate things, just push as hard as you can.
[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
Same applies → Maximal force always. One caveat: layer system uses lots of lifts from pins, on these you still apply maximal force but you do it from a starting position of extreme tightness and “ramp” up the explosion (like a plane taking off).
[/quote]
I do not people linking the layer system with lifts from pins. It started out that way but it evolved a lot. They can still be used, but they are not a principle and shouldn’t be seen as such. Myself I haven’t done a lift from pins in many months.
I still believe in them. And will still use them. But I found that when you focus too much on lifts from pins (especially benches and squats if you use pins for that) you lose efficacy in the “real lifts”… in my case I used pins for so long that it took a while to get used to doing full lifts.
Lifts from pins should be used as only one layer OR one out of 3 workouts OR for 1 week out of 3 in a training cycle.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
Same applies → Maximal force always. One caveat: layer system uses lots of lifts from pins, on these you still apply maximal force but you do it from a starting position of extreme tightness and “ramp” up the explosion (like a plane taking off).
[/quote]
I do not people linking the layer system with lifts from pins. It started out that way but it evolved a lot. They can still be used, but they are not a principle and shouldn’t be seen as such. Myself I haven’t done a lift from pins in many months.
I still believe in them. And will still use them. But I found that when you focus too much on lifts from pins (especially benches and squats if you use pins for that) you lose efficacy in the “real lifts”… in my case I used pins for so long that it took a while to get used to doing full lifts.
Lifts from pins should be used as only one layer OR one out of 3 workouts OR for 1 week out of 3 in a training cycle.[/quote]
What do you think about using lift from pins for a 3-week period to improve/develop explosive power on the bottom and the contentric part?
[quote]pereczja wrote:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
Same applies → Maximal force always. One caveat: layer system uses lots of lifts from pins, on these you still apply maximal force but you do it from a starting position of extreme tightness and “ramp” up the explosion (like a plane taking off).
[/quote]
I do not people linking the layer system with lifts from pins. It started out that way but it evolved a lot. They can still be used, but they are not a principle and shouldn’t be seen as such. Myself I haven’t done a lift from pins in many months.
I still believe in them. And will still use them. But I found that when you focus too much on lifts from pins (especially benches and squats if you use pins for that) you lose efficacy in the “real lifts”… in my case I used pins for so long that it took a while to get used to doing full lifts.
Lifts from pins should be used as only one layer OR one out of 3 workouts OR for 1 week out of 3 in a training cycle.[/quote]
What do you think about using lift from pins for a 3-week period to improve/develop explosive power on the bottom and the contentric part?
[/quote]
That is enough to lose timing on the full lifts if you do not keep practicing them.
I’ve noticed the exact same thing regarding pins - after 2 months of doing slight incline and slight decline from pins (each once a week) my explosiveness at the bottom of the full flat press improved dramatically (was probably as explosive with 80% as I used to be with 65-70%), but the full lift itself felt “off” after 2 months of not doing it.
Then, after switching to full flat bench only for 2 months I lost some but not all of that explosiveness.
So what I’m doing now is alternating between regular bench and slight incline from pins. If I had more flexibility in terms of the setup I’d probably do the first portion of the ramp from pins and then switch to full bench (both flat and slight incline), but it’s not really an option in this gym.
Personally, I’m really only interested in muscle mass gains. I could care less about my actual numbers in the big 3. Are the full lifts or the pin presses better for mass gain?
My guess is that the explosiveness of the pin presses would still make them superior for mass purposes, but I don’t know.
EDIT:
Basically I’m doing things per here: Max Muscle Layer Schedule - Christian Thibaudeau Coaching - Forums - T Nation
Should I make any modifications to that?
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Personally, I’m really only interested in muscle mass gains. I could care less about my actual numbers in the big 3. Are the full lifts or the pin presses better for mass gain?
My guess is that the explosiveness of the pin presses would still make them superior for mass purposes, but I don’t know.
EDIT:
Basically I’m doing things per here: Max Muscle Layer Schedule - Christian Thibaudeau Coaching - Forums - T Nation
Should I make any modifications to that?[/quote]
getting stronger WILL make you bigger, provided you are getting enough mechanical volume, and you are eating enough… AKA the Layer System!
you can’t go wrong with any of the versions really. IMO the quickest muscle gains i’ve experienced so far is using the ramp/10min density/loaded carries.
[quote]lboro21 wrote:
you can’t go wrong with any of the versions really. IMO the quickest muscle gains i’ve experienced so far is using the ramp/10min density/loaded carries.
[/quote]
I might have to move up to 10 min density soon 
Just did a week of ramp-density-carries, with 5 min of density work. I might bump it up this week (7-8?) and again next. We’ll see how it goes and how I react.
How would you incorporate a layer from pins with the full lift?
@ CT: thanks for an explanation about the rep style!
Now I´m waiting on my new shiny trap bar from you to replace me home-made one … I bought it as a reward for myself.
[quote]lboro21 wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Personally, I’m really only interested in muscle mass gains. I could care less about my actual numbers in the big 3. Are the full lifts or the pin presses better for mass gain?
My guess is that the explosiveness of the pin presses would still make them superior for mass purposes, but I don’t know.
EDIT:
Basically I’m doing things per here: Max Muscle Layer Schedule - Christian Thibaudeau Coaching - Forums - T Nation
Should I make any modifications to that?[/quote]
getting stronger WILL make you bigger, provided you are getting enough mechanical volume, and you are eating enough… AKA the Layer System!
you can’t go wrong with any of the versions really. IMO the quickest muscle gains i’ve experienced so far is using the ramp/10min density/loaded carries.
[/quote]
I think you misunderstood my question. Yeah, I get that getting stronger will make me bigger.
If I understood things correctly, CT said that getting stronger in the pin versions hampered his ability to do the full versions of the lifts.
I said I don’t really care if it affects the full versions of the lifts or not; my goal is only the approach which maximizes size gains. If I can do that via pin presses exclusively, I’ll keep doing that.
I’m just not sure which goal rotating out the pin presses was suggested for. If it was for the goal of size, or strength, or toward strength in the big 3.
That being said… I’m really happy with the results so far. And, intellectually, it’s a pretty fascinating system, especially when tying it back to Gironda’s work with density/“intensity”.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]lboro21 wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Personally, I’m really only interested in muscle mass gains. I could care less about my actual numbers in the big 3. Are the full lifts or the pin presses better for mass gain?
My guess is that the explosiveness of the pin presses would still make them superior for mass purposes, but I don’t know.
EDIT:
Basically I’m doing things per here: Max Muscle Layer Schedule - Christian Thibaudeau Coaching - Forums - T Nation
Should I make any modifications to that?[/quote]
getting stronger WILL make you bigger, provided you are getting enough mechanical volume, and you are eating enough… AKA the Layer System!
you can’t go wrong with any of the versions really. IMO the quickest muscle gains i’ve experienced so far is using the ramp/10min density/loaded carries.
[/quote]
I think you misunderstood my question. Yeah, I get that getting stronger will make me bigger.
If I understood things correctly, CT said that getting stronger in the pin versions hampered his ability to do the full versions of the lifts.
I said I don’t really care if it affects the full versions of the lifts or not; my goal is only the approach which maximizes size gains. If I can do that via pin presses exclusively, I’ll keep doing that.
I’m just not sure which goal rotating out the pin presses was suggested for. If it was for the goal of size, or strength, or toward strength in the big 3.
That being said… I’m really happy with the results so far. And, intellectually, it’s a pretty fascinating system, especially when tying it back to Gironda’s work with density/“intensity”.[/quote]
in that case, i would pick pins/full bench depending on which layers you plan on using?
if you are going to be using higher load layers (clusters) then you probably want to go from pins, as unracking the bar can waste effort/energy before each rep -CT pointed this out a while back.
if you are doing high volume/lighter load work, i.e. density work or just high rep schemes, then its really up to you.
i started the layer system using the clusters, so started from pins. now i use the density layer to work on size and i’m really enjoying reverse band bench press (not from pins) as it keeps my shoulders healthy, and allows me to overload the tricps at the top.
if you really don’t care about performance (in your case bench numbers), why are you doing the layer system? GVT will give you quick size, without strength, but again if you don’t care about performance that could be a good workout for you?
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