When not using pins on layers are there certain things that should be replaced? I remember a while back CT saying that the clusters at 90% may be to taxing to rack every time.
When not using lifts from pins, either use a little less weight for the layers (e.g. 87.5 on clusters) or slightly increase the length of the “rest between reps” e.g 15 seconds instead of 10 for clusters.
I don’t have pins either. I ran the layers w. Strength focus. Complete pauses w.out getting loose.
[quote]barbedwired wrote:
I don’t have pins either. I ran the layers w. Strength focus. Complete pauses w.out getting loose. [/quote]
Are you serious? When doing layers requiring pauses, you have to re-rack the bar between each repetition to rest for real. It’s about 10-15 seconds of REST between reps. Not resting with the bar on your chest or held in your hands.
Ok I mispoke a bit. Your * strength emphasis* , not strength focus.
“Yes it could, although if one is using a non dead-stop movement (e.g. regular bench or squat) instead of clusters I`d do sets of 3 reps with 90%”.
-i was saying I did these w. Pauses.
-so hence the comparison for someone else w.o pins .
How common is it to ramp up to your 1RM without the pins on, then go into clusters, ect with the pins on and reaching a better 1RM than without the pins?
[quote]Basara187 wrote:
How common is it to ramp up to your 1RM without the pins on, then go into clusters, ect with the pins on and reaching a better 1RM than without the pins?[/quote]
That’s fairly frequent depending on the height of the pins you use. Which is why ideally the cluster sets are done under the same conditions as the ramp.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]Basara187 wrote:
How common is it to ramp up to your 1RM without the pins on, then go into clusters, ect with the pins on and reaching a better 1RM than without the pins?[/quote]
That’s fairly frequent depending on the height of the pins you use. Which is why ideally the cluster sets are done under the same conditions as the ramp.[/quote] I’ll keep that in mind, thanks CT.
Didn’t want to start a new thread since this is a related question, are deadstop front squats from pins recommended for the layers system or general use? I couldn’t find much info with the forum search engine. I can do deadstop back squats from the pins no problem (even did slightly more weight than regular full back squats), but fronts from pins were pretty challenging, weight was down compared to regular full front squats. Should I just stick with them until my body adapts or is this not an optimal exercise you wouldn’t recommend doing to begin with (proper form/body mechanics too difficult to attain starting from that bottom position)? I don’t think I set the pins too low (it’s the same height I use for back squat from pins). Thanks!
Hopefully this is a related question and am not hijacking the thread…
I have been doing all my upper body pressing layers workouts from pins since early March. I average about 3 or 4 UBP workouts per week, rotating from overhead, incline to flat.The last 3 months or so I have been cycling them using the weekly periodizing and also 'Accumulation/Intensification/Transformation periods you outlined a few months back… I am thrilled with the gains in strength, power and muscle size, and still feel great doing this - I don’t feel burnt out at all.
So, I’m due to do a straight strength phase. Should I switch to not using pins for that? Or keep riding the horse with the pins?
Thanks CT
[quote]PKS wrote:
Hopefully this is a related question and am not hijacking the thread…
I have been doing all my upper body pressing layers workouts from pins since early March. I average about 3 or 4 UBP workouts per week, rotating from overhead, incline to flat.The last 3 months or so I have been cycling them using the weekly periodizing and also 'Accumulation/Intensification/Transformation periods you outlined a few months back… I am thrilled with the gains in strength, power and muscle size, and still feel great doing this - I don’t feel burnt out at all.
So, I’m due to do a straight strength phase. Should I switch to not using pins for that? Or keep riding the horse with the pins?
Thanks CT[/quote]
That’s actually too long for ONLY using the pins. Get back to regular pressing as soon as possible. What I discovered is that if you do all your pressing from pins for a long time you will be REALLY bad when doing regular pressing… REALLY bad. The main reason is the lack of eccentric and especially the lack of turnaround. Your strength not from pins will be much much lower. Not because pins made you weaker (you ARE stronger) but because you will have lost the capacity to efficiently lower the barbell and switch direction from eccentric to concentric.
That’s why I now recommend combining both types of pressing or sticking with pins for only 4 weeks or so if that’s all you do.
I’m still a bit confused.
If I’m understanding things correctly, without pins, you can’t really do cluster or HDL sets due to the whole racking/reracking problem. So, without that as an option, I’m assuming that’s the reason for the methodology change to density/carries… basically a way to still get the benefits of clusters/HDL but with the full lifts.
However, I can’t seem to make enough sense of the density/carries in the context of that “max muscle layering” template. And I also don’t understand how to use the full lifts within that template, since it’s based on manipulating the intensity/volume via the cluster and HDL sets.
So that brought me back to wondering… is it necessary to train the full lifts, or are the pin lifts enough? But based on that response, it sounds like it’s better to train the full lifts. (Although, I’m still unclear of the context for when/why the full lifts are better than the pin lifts. Is this just for people who want better numbers with the main lifts, or is it equally applicable in the contexts of athleticism, strength AND hypertrophy?)
Which… leaves me confused.
How do you incorporate the full lifts into something like that “max muscle layering” template?
I prefer to stick to something for a longer period of time before switching things up, but the cautionary warnings about “don’t do pin presses exclusively” is really causing me to rethink things.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’m still a bit confused.
If I’m understanding things correctly, without pins, you can’t really do cluster or HDL sets due to the whole racking/reracking problem. So, without that as an option, I’m assuming that’s the reason for the methodology change to density/carries… basically a way to still get the benefits of clusters/HDL but with the full lifts.
However, I can’t seem to make enough sense of the density/carries in the context of that “max muscle layering” template. And I also don’t understand how to use the full lifts within that template, since it’s based on manipulating the intensity/volume via the cluster and HDL sets.
So that brought me back to wondering… is it necessary to train the full lifts, or are the pin lifts enough? But based on that response, it sounds like it’s better to train the full lifts. (Although, I’m still unclear of the context for when/why the full lifts are better than the pin lifts. Is this just for people who want better numbers with the main lifts, or is it equally applicable in the contexts of athleticism, strength AND hypertrophy?)
Which… leaves me confused.
How do you incorporate the full lifts into something like that “max muscle layering” template?
I prefer to stick to something for a longer period of time before switching things up, but the cautionary warnings about “don’t do pin presses exclusively” is really causing me to rethink things.[/quote] Hopefully CT answers your question, but I’m going to guess bigger numbers will equate to more strength, hypertrophy and possibly better performance/athleticism, so you’d be limiting yourself by only doing everything from the pins. As to why full lifts would be better vs. pin lifts, maybe more fiber activation/recruitment and muscle damage caused by doing the eccentric first then concentric, vs the explosiveness of concentric then eccentric?? I dunno.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’m still a bit confused.
If I’m understanding things correctly, without pins, you can’t really do cluster or HDL sets due to the whole racking/reracking problem. So, without that as an option, I’m assuming that’s the reason for the methodology change to density/carries… basically a way to still get the benefits of clusters/HDL but with the full lifts.
However, I can’t seem to make enough sense of the density/carries in the context of that “max muscle layering” template. And I also don’t understand how to use the full lifts within that template, since it’s based on manipulating the intensity/volume via the cluster and HDL sets.
So that brought me back to wondering… is it necessary to train the full lifts, or are the pin lifts enough? But based on that response, it sounds like it’s better to train the full lifts. (Although, I’m still unclear of the context for when/why the full lifts are better than the pin lifts. Is this just for people who want better numbers with the main lifts, or is it equally applicable in the contexts of athleticism, strength AND hypertrophy?)
Which… leaves me confused.
How do you incorporate the full lifts into something like that “max muscle layering” template?
I prefer to stick to something for a longer period of time before switching things up, but the cautionary warnings about “don’t do pin presses exclusively” is really causing me to rethink things.[/quote]
-
Clusters can be done with regular lifts, it has been done for decades! Heck, I even published a DVD called “Cluster training” and didn’t talk about lifts from pins. What I find is that you need to take about 5 more seconds between reps when doing clusters on the full lifts.
-
Are full lifts necessary? If your only goal is to gain overall size, probably not. And lifts from pins will get the muscles just as strong as without pins. But the fact is that if you only do lifts from pins, you will only get better at lifts from pins. So if performing at a high level on the full lifts has some importance to you, you’ll have to do full lifts.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]PKS wrote:
Hopefully this is a related question and am not hijacking the thread…
I have been doing all my upper body pressing layers workouts from pins since early March. I average about 3 or 4 UBP workouts per week, rotating from overhead, incline to flat.The last 3 months or so I have been cycling them using the weekly periodizing and also 'Accumulation/Intensification/Transformation periods you outlined a few months back… I am thrilled with the gains in strength, power and muscle size, and still feel great doing this - I don’t feel burnt out at all.
So, I’m due to do a straight strength phase. Should I switch to not using pins for that? Or keep riding the horse with the pins?
Thanks CT[/quote]
That’s actually too long for ONLY using the pins. Get back to regular pressing as soon as possible. What I discovered is that if you do all your pressing from pins for a long time you will be REALLY bad when doing regular pressing… REALLY bad. The main reason is the lack of eccentric and especially the lack of turnaround. Your strength not from pins will be much much lower. Not because pins made you weaker (you ARE stronger) but because you will have lost the capacity to efficiently lower the barbell and switch direction from eccentric to concentric.
That’s why I now recommend combining both types of pressing or sticking with pins for only 4 weeks or so if that’s all you do.[/quote]
Thanks CT, glad I asked!
How would you recommend transitioning to not-from-pins pressing? I was thinking of doing this in lieu of the new info you have given me:
Weeks 1-4 ACCUMULATION from Pins
Weeks 5-8 Strength phase NO-pins
Weeks 9-12 INTENSIFICATION from Pins
Weeks 13-16 Strength phase NO-pins
Weeks 17-20 TRANSFORMATION from Pins (I am currently in this phase)
Weeks 21-24 Strength phase NO-pins (Was going to start this phase immediately?)
repeat
Would using this Strength phase still be a great option?:
1.Ramp to 1RM, 3x Clusters at 90% 1RM
2.Ramp to 2RM from 70% 1RM, 2x Clusters at 90% 2RM
3.Ramp to 3RM from 70% 1RM, 1x Cluster at 90% 3RM
4.Max Reps at 70% 1RM
BTW, are you still recommending a strength phase between hypertrophy phases? I’m a bit out of touch (obviously) with you’re current recommendations and not sure.
…“if you do all your pressing from pins for a long time you will be REALLY bad when doing regular pressing… REALLY bad.”
My ego is now preparing to take one for the team 
haha shiiiiiitttt
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’m still a bit confused.
If I’m understanding things correctly, without pins, you can’t really do cluster or HDL sets due to the whole racking/reracking problem. So, without that as an option, I’m assuming that’s the reason for the methodology change to density/carries… basically a way to still get the benefits of clusters/HDL but with the full lifts.
However, I can’t seem to make enough sense of the density/carries in the context of that “max muscle layering” template. And I also don’t understand how to use the full lifts within that template, since it’s based on manipulating the intensity/volume via the cluster and HDL sets.
So that brought me back to wondering… is it necessary to train the full lifts, or are the pin lifts enough? But based on that response, it sounds like it’s better to train the full lifts. (Although, I’m still unclear of the context for when/why the full lifts are better than the pin lifts. Is this just for people who want better numbers with the main lifts, or is it equally applicable in the contexts of athleticism, strength AND hypertrophy?)
Which… leaves me confused.
How do you incorporate the full lifts into something like that “max muscle layering” template?
I prefer to stick to something for a longer period of time before switching things up, but the cautionary warnings about “don’t do pin presses exclusively” is really causing me to rethink things.[/quote]
-
Clusters can be done with regular lifts, it has been done for decades! Heck, I even published a DVD called “Cluster training” and didn’t talk about lifts from pins. What I find is that you need to take about 5 more seconds between reps when doing clusters on the full lifts.
-
Are full lifts necessary? If your only goal is to gain overall size, probably not. And lifts from pins will get the muscles just as strong as without pins. But the fact is that if you only do lifts from pins, you will only get better at lifts from pins. So if performing at a high level on the full lifts has some importance to you, you’ll have to do full lifts.
[/quote]
That’s pretty interesting, can the “stretch (myotatic) reflex” become weak if not practiced and always using pins?
[quote]Basara187 wrote:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’m still a bit confused.
If I’m understanding things correctly, without pins, you can’t really do cluster or HDL sets due to the whole racking/reracking problem. So, without that as an option, I’m assuming that’s the reason for the methodology change to density/carries… basically a way to still get the benefits of clusters/HDL but with the full lifts.
However, I can’t seem to make enough sense of the density/carries in the context of that “max muscle layering” template. And I also don’t understand how to use the full lifts within that template, since it’s based on manipulating the intensity/volume via the cluster and HDL sets.
So that brought me back to wondering… is it necessary to train the full lifts, or are the pin lifts enough? But based on that response, it sounds like it’s better to train the full lifts. (Although, I’m still unclear of the context for when/why the full lifts are better than the pin lifts. Is this just for people who want better numbers with the main lifts, or is it equally applicable in the contexts of athleticism, strength AND hypertrophy?)
Which… leaves me confused.
How do you incorporate the full lifts into something like that “max muscle layering” template?
I prefer to stick to something for a longer period of time before switching things up, but the cautionary warnings about “don’t do pin presses exclusively” is really causing me to rethink things.[/quote]
-
Clusters can be done with regular lifts, it has been done for decades! Heck, I even published a DVD called “Cluster training” and didn’t talk about lifts from pins. What I find is that you need to take about 5 more seconds between reps when doing clusters on the full lifts.
-
Are full lifts necessary? If your only goal is to gain overall size, probably not. And lifts from pins will get the muscles just as strong as without pins. But the fact is that if you only do lifts from pins, you will only get better at lifts from pins. So if performing at a high level on the full lifts has some importance to you, you’ll have to do full lifts.
[/quote]
That’s pretty interesting, can the “stretch (myotatic) reflex” become weak if not practiced and always using pins?[/quote]
No necessarily weak, but inhibitory… a study has shown that when individuals not used to using the stretch reflex do depth jumps their jumping capacity is inhibited whereas when individuals who are used to using the stretch reflex do the same their jump is potentiated.
From my experience the only way to make the stretch reflex weaker is to become hypermobile.
I’ve been doing the quad strength layers, so for bench, I do the ramp from pins and then the other three without. Seems to be going well thus far. Would you say that that’s a good plan to incorporate both from pins and without? Just wondering since in my case, doing the ramp from pins is a necessity since I do not have a good spotter.
All of my lifts have been done as full lifts, no pins, and I have progressed quite well. I do note that I can take 5 more seconds of rest between reps on clusters. I did not know that and I am thankful for this knowledge. Squat and push press clusters without pins make me hate everything in the world. Perhaps the extra 5 seconds will brighten my outlook.
@CT I want to thank you for your advice you give out on here. Since I started layering my max numbers have went up greatly in all lifts. I reached my BP goal that I set for myself this year with 2 months to spare, so I have bumped it up by 50 more pounds. You rock my friend.