Raw Powerlifting

Training Powerlifting
141

[quote]Joe84 wrote:
Gear is just an ego trip for everyone using it, end of story.

If everyone wasn’t so worried about how they measure up to other lifters at the comp then the gear would disappear… if you’re only competing against yourself you don’t need the gear, it’s expensive, takes time to learn, and is hard to put on, 3 negatives to 1 positive.

[/quote]

Holy crap. Here come the hippies. ‘Yay! everyone’s a winner!!’ Screw that. I compete against others because I want an external reality check. Guess what, if your a healthy adult male and you worked hard to move your bench from 225 to 235 - you still suck.

It’s a fine line to walk, some people only enter contests when there’s weak competition. But it is NOT the “end of story” to say that gear is just an ego trip. Gear, to me, is just one more challenge. Have you ever actually lifted in gear? My 1RM with gear is a hell of a lot harder than my 1RM unequipped.

If you’re not up to that challenge, if you dont want to take it it’s cool - heck, since I train strongman events on the weekends and dont have any training partners in teh gym during the week I havent been in a shirt in over a year; for now, briefs and a belt are my only gear on the squat - but dont crap on the pursuits of others just because their goals and/or their methods of getting there may differ from yours.

142

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
Joe84 wrote:
Gear is just an ego trip for everyone using it, end of story.

If everyone wasn’t so worried about how they measure up to other lifters at the comp then the gear would disappear… if you’re only competing against yourself you don’t need the gear, it’s expensive, takes time to learn, and is hard to put on, 3 negatives to 1 positive.

Holy crap. Here come the hippies. ‘Yay! everyone’s a winner!!’ Screw that. I compete against others because I want an external reality check. Guess what, if your a healthy adult male and you worked hard to move your bench from 225 to 235 - you still suck.

It’s a fine line to walk, some people only enter contests when there’s weak competition. But it is NOT the “end of story” to say that gear is just an ego trip. Gear, to me, is just one more challenge. Have you ever actually lifted in gear? My 1RM with gear is a hell of a lot harder than my 1RM unequipped.

If you’re not up to that challenge, if you dont want to take it it’s cool - heck, since I train strongman events on the weekends and dont have any training partners in teh gym during the week I havent been in a shirt in over a year; for now, briefs and a belt are my only gear on the squat - but dont crap on the pursuits of others just because their goals and/or their methods of getting there may differ from yours.

[/quote]

It’s more realistic to compare RAW lifts though if you want a reality check, becuase they are better indicators of true strength. If you need to lift something heavy in real life what are you gonna do? Say, “O, hold on let me go grab my suit, wraps and belt.”

I also fail to see how an equipped lift is harder since a lift in gear is easier then the same lift (same weight) without it.

As for myself, the most gear I’ve ever had on is a belt and I don’t even count my lifts in a belt as PRs. And for competition I’ve gotten into some strongman stuff the past year, and did a couple amatuer strongman comps, however powerlifting has zero appeal to me, mostly because of the use of gear.

143

[quote]Joe84 wrote:

It’s more realistic to compare RAW lifts though if you want a reality check, becuase they are better indicators of true strength. If you need to lift something heavy in real life what are you gonna do? Say, “O, hold on let me go grab my suit, wraps and belt.” [/quote]

This argument holds no water. Unequipped powerlifting is just as unrealistic a display of strength - where in real life would you find perfectly balanced weights with a convenient handhold (ie barbells)? Where in real life do you LOWER a weight before lifting it?

[quote]
I also fail to see how an equipped lift is harder since a lift in gear is easier then the same lift (same weight) without it. [/quote]

Right, but that is not what I said. A 1RM in gear is harder than a 1RM out of gear. My 360 unequipped bench was a much easier lift than my 475 in an inzer ultimate denim. I maxed my squat last march at 545. In playing around with my briefs in august I got up to 605 - that too was much harder. Again, if you’ve never lifted in gear it’s tough to explain and maybe impossible to understand.

[quote]

As for myself, the most gear I’ve ever had on is a belt and I don’t even count my lifts in a belt as PRs. And for competition I’ve gotten into some strongman stuff the past year, and did a couple amatuer strongman comps, however powerlifting has zero appeal to me, mostly because of the use of gear. [/quote]

if you’re competing in strongman, you’re either using straps and suits on teh deadlift and TACKY on teh stones - which is a HUGE help - or else you’re bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Oh, and if you ever do a competition with a car deadlift are you gonna tell people “yeah, i can pick up a car … of course there has to be a lever system in place with handles set at the right height - oh, as long as I have my straps, gotta have my straps - and I’ll also need…”

144

[quote]Dr.PowerClean wrote:
What a depressing thread. The only reason I read it is because I respect HT, who is a strong man doing his best with a torn up body and not afraid to post logs with videos of his daily battles.

I do understand the RAW vs. gear issues, and it clearly does cause problems in “comprehending” the relative values of certain PR lifts.
But come on, the lifting community as a whole needs to come together, because nobody else really gives a shit, regardless if it’s PL, OL or BB.

We do this stuff because we love it, right? And not just the PR's, but the training, the discipline, the feeling of being and looking strong.

Maybe I'm too old and out of touch, and don't understand some unwritten internet laws such as trolls must be destroyed, cyber PR's challenged, etc. But I know a bad thing when I see one, and this thread is not in any way constructive, enlightening or entertaining. Or am I missing something?                        Doc

[/quote]

hey doc,

thanks for chiming in over here, you opinion is always welcome, least by me anyhoo.

you make a good point. i have been in my share of gear debates, for whatever reason i made a point that it was somehthing that was worth argueing about. however, i have toned down my rhetoric as of late for many reasons, most because of how sensitive many can be about it, as it has cost me some friends, as silly as that sounds it is true.

also, rereading some of my old posts on other boards, though at the time i did not think i was coming across like a complete dick and insulting other’s lifting accomplishments, i sure as heck was.

i still think it is an interesting disscusion worthy of intelligent debate, but the personal attacks and insults need not be part of said disscussion.

you are absolutely right, we all in some way or another share similar goals, and we do need to support one another more.

145

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
Joe84 wrote:

Right, but that is not what I said. A 1RM in gear is harder than a 1RM out of gear. My 360 unequipped bench was a much easier lift than my 475 in an inzer ultimate denim. I maxed my squat last march at 545. In playing around with my briefs in august I got up to 605 - that too was much harder. Again, if you’ve never lifted in gear it’s tough to explain and maybe impossible to understand.

…"[/quote]

i concur. at my “peak” shortly after i left diablo, i hit 600x2 off a box with the bottom half of a metal viking, obout a week later i tested my RAW(belt only) free squat, did 540. the 600 with gear busted me up MUCH more than the 540 RAW squat.

oh, and if you have seen any videos of me squating, you know that 540 raw was DEEP. still the heavier load with the box and gear tore me up much more.

146

[quote]Joe84 wrote:
OneDay wrote:
mozhne wrote:
OneDay wrote:
Hanley wrote:
js385787 wrote:
Average guy: What do ya bench?

Triple denim ammonia snorting guy: 1,000lbs

Average guy: O wow, that’s a lot, I didn’t think people lifted that much. That’s like half a ton

Triple denim ammonia snorting guy: They don’t, I’m just pure awesome and my shirt helps me out a bit.

Average guy: Shirt?

Triple denim ammonia snorting guy: Ya my powerlifting shirt, helps me lift more

Average guy: How much more?

Triple denim ammonia snorting guy: 300lbs

Average guy: Sounds ghey, why do you use that, what’s the point?

Triple denim ammonia snorting guy: Cause I’m pure awesome

Average guy: Still sounds ghey, I think you mean pure egotistical.

Really who invented this shit and what was the point of it? Why don’t we just make some robot suits with a metal frame and put hydraulic presses in the sleeves.

Triple denim ammonia snorting guy: Oh yeah? What do you bench?

Average guy: Oh I don’t bench, it’s dangerous for your shoulders

Triple denim ammonia snorting guy: I see, so do you know what powerlifting actually is then?

Average guy: yeah man, it’s that thing where you pick up the stones and run around with weights in your hand

Triple denim ammonia snorting guy: shakes his head and walks off wondering why the fuck people want to change the sport he loves and has commited the last 20 years of his life training for, and has spend tens of thousands of $'s on so that some jackass with no clue as to what the sport is and probably will never have no more than a passing interest will feel that it is more “acceptable” and “valid”

Ditto.

At least we got the OP out of here…

One word: DIET. If you are going to post your pic on a site like this you might want to look like you actually lift weights. Might I suggest you peruse the Supplements and Nutrition section of this forum. That Circus Strongman/Lous Cyr look went out sometime in the 1920’s

Barry

Did you just call me fat? Cause if you did, I think we’re really gonna have a problem. I squatted 662.5 lbs in the 198s in 2000. I also totaled 1647.5 lbs that same year. So, you can “stick that in your pipe and smoke it” You come on to a website, you insult a sport that many people around here love, and you expect not to catch flak for it.

I can’t believe I’m being made fun of by someone who posted this:

Pages: 1
mozhne
Junior Member

Reged: Jun 10 2004
Posts: 2
Loc: Roberts, Idaho Abundance for Life
#9656 - Thu Jun 10 2004 07:56 AM

Hello,
Just got started with the Abundance for Life course. Great work. I have been a “Positive Thinking” junkie since reading Peale in the 6th grade. I’ve lost count on how many success/money making books and courses I’ve spent time and money on so I’m well versed in what should be productive thinking and visualization. In light of this what went wrong this past year?

I started a lifelong dream business and it flopped leaving me about 100k in debt, my wife informed me that she had commited adultery with 4, yes I said 4 different men including two former friends. Pretty much every thing and every one I come in contact with turns to baad trouble. The deal is I set goals, I visualized the result, I did all the stuff. Granted this course is a cut above and I am giving it a try but this past year has been a wreck that has left me shaking.

End of argument. I win. You suck…

Do you always brag about what you USED to be able to do?

Why don’t you post some RAW lifts that are current. [/quote]

First off, Dizzy Dean once said, “It ain’t bragging if you can back it up.” Now, yes, you are right, I USED to have impressive numbers. That was before three knee surgeries, a back surgery, a wrist surgery, and the death of my fiance. Furthermore, I never lifted RAW, and as such, I don’t give a shit about what my RAW numbers are. I’d also like to point out that I have never criticized someone who lifts raw, it’s just not for me.

And I wasn’t trying to brag, simply pointing out that I felt it was wrong of mozhne to personally attack me, especially when I had not made any personal attacks on him.

Finally, as someone who can still deadlift 500 lbs, even with a titanium rod in my spine, I think I’ve earned the right to brag a little…

147

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
Joe84 wrote:

It’s more realistic to compare RAW lifts though if you want a reality check, becuase they are better indicators of true strength. If you need to lift something heavy in real life what are you gonna do? Say, “O, hold on let me go grab my suit, wraps and belt.”

This argument holds no water. Unequipped powerlifting is just as unrealistic a display of strength - where in real life would you find perfectly balanced weights with a convenient handhold (ie barbells)? Where in real life do you LOWER a weight before lifting it?

I also fail to see how an equipped lift is harder since a lift in gear is easier then the same lift (same weight) without it.

Right, but that is not what I said. A 1RM in gear is harder than a 1RM out of gear. My 360 unequipped bench was a much easier lift than my 475 in an inzer ultimate denim. I maxed my squat last march at 545. In playing around with my briefs in august I got up to 605 - that too was much harder. Again, if you’ve never lifted in gear it’s tough to explain and maybe impossible to understand.

As for myself, the most gear I’ve ever had on is a belt and I don’t even count my lifts in a belt as PRs. And for competition I’ve gotten into some strongman stuff the past year, and did a couple amatuer strongman comps, however powerlifting has zero appeal to me, mostly because of the use of gear.

if you’re competing in strongman, you’re either using straps and suits on teh deadlift and TACKY on teh stones - which is a HUGE help - or else you’re bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Oh, and if you ever do a competition with a car deadlift are you gonna tell people “yeah, i can pick up a car … of course there has to be a lever system in place with handles set at the right height - oh, as long as I have my straps, gotta have my straps - and I’ll also need…”[/quote]

One of the comps I did had a max deadlift, I lifted in shorts and t-shirt with chalk, no suit, belts, or straps. I also don’t use tacky, it’s messy for one and if I can’t lift something without aids, well then I can’t lift it.

I have never done a car dl but if I did I sure wouldn’t be bragging about it, in fact I do not talk about lifting to people unless asked directly. Now if I ever get strong enough to pick a car up by the bumper well then I’ll brag about it.

148

[quote]Joe84 wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Joe84 wrote:

It’s more realistic to compare RAW lifts though if you want a reality check, becuase they are better indicators of true strength. If you need to lift something heavy in real life what are you gonna do? Say, “O, hold on let me go grab my suit, wraps and belt.”

This argument holds no water. Unequipped powerlifting is just as unrealistic a display of strength - where in real life would you find perfectly balanced weights with a convenient handhold (ie barbells)? Where in real life do you LOWER a weight before lifting it?

I also fail to see how an equipped lift is harder since a lift in gear is easier then the same lift (same weight) without it.

Right, but that is not what I said. A 1RM in gear is harder than a 1RM out of gear. My 360 unequipped bench was a much easier lift than my 475 in an inzer ultimate denim. I maxed my squat last march at 545. In playing around with my briefs in august I got up to 605 - that too was much harder. Again, if you’ve never lifted in gear it’s tough to explain and maybe impossible to understand.

As for myself, the most gear I’ve ever had on is a belt and I don’t even count my lifts in a belt as PRs. And for competition I’ve gotten into some strongman stuff the past year, and did a couple amatuer strongman comps, however powerlifting has zero appeal to me, mostly because of the use of gear.

if you’re competing in strongman, you’re either using straps and suits on teh deadlift and TACKY on teh stones - which is a HUGE help - or else you’re bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Oh, and if you ever do a competition with a car deadlift are you gonna tell people “yeah, i can pick up a car … of course there has to be a lever system in place with handles set at the right height - oh, as long as I have my straps, gotta have my straps - and I’ll also need…”

One of the comps I did had a max deadlift, I lifted in shorts and t-shirt with chalk, no suit, belts, or straps. I also don’t use tacky, it’s messy for one and if I can’t lift something without aids, well then I can’t lift it.

I have never done a car dl but if I did I sure wouldn’t be bragging about it, in fact I do not talk about lifting to people unless asked directly. Now if I ever get strong enough to pick a car up by the bumper well then I’ll brag about it. [/quote]

You could go to a meet that allows gear and lift in a singlet if you wanted to whats your point? KBC’s point is that strongman allows deadlift and squat suites in some/most cases even straps which powerlifting doesn’t allow.

Why not use tacky? Chalk is a grip aid but you use that.

Messy? Bloody shins are messy, chalk dust all over is messy, tire flips leave me with black tire crude all over me, stones tear my forearms up, lifting is messy!

149

[quote]Joe84 wrote:

One of the comps I did had a max deadlift, I lifted in shorts and t-shirt with chalk, no suit, belts, or straps. I also don’t use tacky, it’s messy for one and if I can’t lift something without aids, well then I can’t lift it. [/quote]

that is fine and i applaud your consistency. I mean that sincerely, there are plenty of hypocrites out there. But honestly, you are bringing a knife to a gun fight. I just dont understand why you wouldnt use every legal means at your disposal to win. But honestly, I think I’m too competitive to ever understand, so I wont bother asking.

[quote]
I have never done a car dl but if I did I sure wouldn’t be bragging about it, in fact I do not talk about lifting to people unless asked directly. Now if I ever get strong enough to pick a car up by the bumper well then I’ll brag about it. [/quote]

Well if youre not going to talk to others about it, then why this concern about what equipped lifters are going to tell average people? How will you answer if you tell a buddy that you have a strongman competition “oh cool, strongman, so youre one of those guys who picks up cars?” Are you going to explain to him the smoke and mirrors that are involved in the difference between the weight of the implement and the weight in hand?

What about yoke, what if someone asks you the equivalent to that (since you seem to be so concerned about how one exercise equates to anotehr?) “oh, you do a yoke walk? so that’s liek teh weight on your back, right? So it’s kinda like a squat? so you could walk out 700 from the rack and run around the gym with it?” will you bother to explain that because the center of gravity is much lower in a yoke than a squat it’s much easier to balance, and consequently the yoke does not have an “equivalent” lift?

150

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
Joe84 wrote:

One of the comps I did had a max deadlift, I lifted in shorts and t-shirt with chalk, no suit, belts, or straps. I also don’t use tacky, it’s messy for one and if I can’t lift something without aids, well then I can’t lift it.

that is fine and i applaud your consistency. I mean that sincerely, there are plenty of hypocrites out there. But honestly, you are bringing a knife to a gun fight. I just dont understand why you wouldnt use every legal means at your disposal to win. But honestly, I think I’m too competitive to ever understand, so I wont bother asking.

I have never done a car dl but if I did I sure wouldn’t be bragging about it, in fact I do not talk about lifting to people unless asked directly. Now if I ever get strong enough to pick a car up by the bumper well then I’ll brag about it.

Well if youre not going to talk to others about it, then why this concern about what equipped lifters are going to tell average people? How will you answer if you tell a buddy that you have a strongman competition “oh cool, strongman, so youre one of those guys who picks up cars?” Are you going to explain to him the smoke and mirrors that are involved in the difference between the weight of the implement and the weight in hand?

What about yoke, what if someone asks you the equivalent to that (since you seem to be so concerned about how one exercise equates to anotehr?) “oh, you do a yoke walk? so that’s liek teh weight on your back, right? So it’s kinda like a squat? so you could walk out 700 from the rack and run around the gym with it?” will you bother to explain that because the center of gravity is much lower in a yoke than a squat it’s much easier to balance, and consequently the yoke does not have an “equivalent” lift?
[/quote]

Ya I would explain it and I have tried explaining such items in the past to people.

Why I wouldn’t use every legal way to win? well it’s just a hobby for me, I’m not putting food on the table lifting stuff so it doesn’t much matter how I do.

151

[quote]Kalle wrote:
Joe84 wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Joe84 wrote:

It’s more realistic to compare RAW lifts though if you want a reality check, becuase they are better indicators of true strength. If you need to lift something heavy in real life what are you gonna do? Say, “O, hold on let me go grab my suit, wraps and belt.”

This argument holds no water. Unequipped powerlifting is just as unrealistic a display of strength - where in real life would you find perfectly balanced weights with a convenient handhold (ie barbells)? Where in real life do you LOWER a weight before lifting it?

I also fail to see how an equipped lift is harder since a lift in gear is easier then the same lift (same weight) without it.

Right, but that is not what I said. A 1RM in gear is harder than a 1RM out of gear. My 360 unequipped bench was a much easier lift than my 475 in an inzer ultimate denim. I maxed my squat last march at 545. In playing around with my briefs in august I got up to 605 - that too was much harder. Again, if you’ve never lifted in gear it’s tough to explain and maybe impossible to understand.

As for myself, the most gear I’ve ever had on is a belt and I don’t even count my lifts in a belt as PRs. And for competition I’ve gotten into some strongman stuff the past year, and did a couple amatuer strongman comps, however powerlifting has zero appeal to me, mostly because of the use of gear.

if you’re competing in strongman, you’re either using straps and suits on teh deadlift and TACKY on teh stones - which is a HUGE help - or else you’re bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Oh, and if you ever do a competition with a car deadlift are you gonna tell people “yeah, i can pick up a car … of course there has to be a lever system in place with handles set at the right height - oh, as long as I have my straps, gotta have my straps - and I’ll also need…”

One of the comps I did had a max deadlift, I lifted in shorts and t-shirt with chalk, no suit, belts, or straps. I also don’t use tacky, it’s messy for one and if I can’t lift something without aids, well then I can’t lift it.

I have never done a car dl but if I did I sure wouldn’t be bragging about it, in fact I do not talk about lifting to people unless asked directly. Now if I ever get strong enough to pick a car up by the bumper well then I’ll brag about it.

You could go to a meet that allows gear and lift in a singlet if you wanted to whats your point? KBC’s point is that strongman allows deadlift and squat suites in some/most cases even straps which powerlifting doesn’t allow.

Why not use tacky? Chalk is a grip aid but you use that.

Messy? Bloody shins are messy, chalk dust all over is messy, tire flips leave me with black tire crude all over me, stones tear my forearms up, lifting is messy! [/quote]

Chalk is no where near as extreme as tacky that’s why.

And ya straps are pretty gay imo and I think it’s ridicilous to allow straps, especially on axel stuff.

152

[quote]Joe84 wrote:

Ya I would explain it and I have tried explaining such items in the past to people.

Why I wouldn’t use every legal way to win? well it’s just a hobby for me, I’m not putting food on the table lifting stuff so it doesn’t much matter how I do. [/quote]

If it doesnt matter how you do … why on earth do you bother doing it?

153

[quote]Joe84 wrote:
Kalle wrote:
Joe84 wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Joe84 wrote:

It’s more realistic to compare RAW lifts though if you want a reality check, becuase they are better indicators of true strength. If you need to lift something heavy in real life what are you gonna do? Say, “O, hold on let me go grab my suit, wraps and belt.”

This argument holds no water. Unequipped powerlifting is just as unrealistic a display of strength - where in real life would you find perfectly balanced weights with a convenient handhold (ie barbells)? Where in real life do you LOWER a weight before lifting it?

I also fail to see how an equipped lift is harder since a lift in gear is easier then the same lift (same weight) without it.

Right, but that is not what I said. A 1RM in gear is harder than a 1RM out of gear. My 360 unequipped bench was a much easier lift than my 475 in an inzer ultimate denim. I maxed my squat last march at 545. In playing around with my briefs in august I got up to 605 - that too was much harder. Again, if you’ve never lifted in gear it’s tough to explain and maybe impossible to understand.

As for myself, the most gear I’ve ever had on is a belt and I don’t even count my lifts in a belt as PRs. And for competition I’ve gotten into some strongman stuff the past year, and did a couple amatuer strongman comps, however powerlifting has zero appeal to me, mostly because of the use of gear.

if you’re competing in strongman, you’re either using straps and suits on teh deadlift and TACKY on teh stones - which is a HUGE help - or else you’re bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Oh, and if you ever do a competition with a car deadlift are you gonna tell people “yeah, i can pick up a car … of course there has to be a lever system in place with handles set at the right height - oh, as long as I have my straps, gotta have my straps - and I’ll also need…”

One of the comps I did had a max deadlift, I lifted in shorts and t-shirt with chalk, no suit, belts, or straps. I also don’t use tacky, it’s messy for one and if I can’t lift something without aids, well then I can’t lift it.

I have never done a car dl but if I did I sure wouldn’t be bragging about it, in fact I do not talk about lifting to people unless asked directly. Now if I ever get strong enough to pick a car up by the bumper well then I’ll brag about it.

You could go to a meet that allows gear and lift in a singlet if you wanted to whats your point? KBC’s point is that strongman allows deadlift and squat suites in some/most cases even straps which powerlifting doesn’t allow.

Why not use tacky? Chalk is a grip aid but you use that.

Messy? Bloody shins are messy, chalk dust all over is messy, tire flips leave me with black tire crude all over me, stones tear my forearms up, lifting is messy!

Chalk is no where near as extreme as tacky that’s why.

And ya straps are pretty gay imo and I think it’s ridicilous to allow straps, especially on axel stuff. [/quote]

I know its not as extreme but it is an aid none the less.

I wouldn’t call straps gay, they are pretty much needed on a side handle car deadlift.

154

[quote]mozhne wrote:

Hello Raw,

Probably did run into you in Pocatello. Last time I lifted there was 2000. I don’t know Dr. Anderson, Don’t really know anyone who is in any leadership position in Powerlifting. Back a few posts when I talked about mentoring new powerlifters and then you mention how Bill now only has one meet per year, I think the two are related.

I have spoken with two other former lifters (while working in the Potato industry in fact, apwsearch, had to stick that in, this guy told me to go dig spuds for some weird attempt at an insult). Anyway both of these guys have left the sport for the same reasons. Gear use. Now these are only three guys, me and the other two. None of us ever made a mark in Powerlifting but guys like us are the backbone of Powerlifting.

You take that base away and little by little the whole thing dies. You live here in the west. How is Powerlifting here in the West? In Idaho it is all but dead. I think the link is Gear use. People see through the BS and want nothing to do with this sport.

Barry

[/quote]

Dr. Sean Anderson took over the USAPL chair in Idaho in 2004 I believe. You may know Brad Compton (I think that’s his last name) who held that position for a number of years. He lost interest in the sport and left so Dr. Anderson stepped in. I sure loved those meets that Bill Davis put on. I remember the first time I went up there. I couldn’t believe it. It was a first-class production in every way not to mention all the perks on the side for the lifters.

I started to notice year after year the number of lifters declining. There were a lot of guys from Utah that came up there and they decided to start attending the APF meets instead put on somewhere there in Idaho. I think it was called Snake River.

I got to know Bill Davis and he shared to me that every meet he was taking a loss financially, but he would still have the meets. Finally, due to personal and financial reasons he had to cut back down to just one meet per year and that’s the state championship in November. Dr. Anderson has struggled to bring lifters in and I admire his admiration and dedication to the USAPL there. He is an IPF judge and competes himself in the Masters 50-55 class internationally. He’s told me that a lot of lifters are going other places because the USAPL judging is too strict and they like using a monolift along with many other trivial reasons.

Since I have been competing there has been only one USAPL meet here in Nevada that I know of and that was in 2002 up in Elko. The USAPL state chair quit up there so there is nothing going on in Nevada that I am aware of. I’ve always had to travel to compete. I started going down to Arizona when the USAPL started up down there to support it. One of them was a total joke and very lifter unfriendly and the other one became a marketing circus in which the meet organizer attempted to bring in several other lifting venues outside of the USAPL and mix it in with the USAPL lifters. With Johnny Graham judging that day and his strict judging it made those outside of the USAPL cry loudly.

Sadly, I do think some are leaving for gear use and it goes in both directions. There are a great many who want more gear, slack judging, want to use monolift racks, etc., all to push up bigger numbers. Others like myself that don’t like all the gear use are left with few alternatives. It was told to me many times to conform and grow with the sport or get out.

I had friends up there in Idaho who would say to me, “Andy, I got a lot of respect for what you are doing and I would like to compete that way. I wish it were possible to have a meet where we lifted old-school like that or in garage style meet.” Well, it’s just not going to happen.

As you know, federations like “100% RAW” that you linked to have nothing out here in the West. I did the very first ever WNPF meet they held out here in Vegas. They never came back. They are strictly East coast too. The AAU is mainly on the East coast as well. Martin Drake, who is with the AAU, has normally one meet a year out here down in San Diego. I’ve learned that the USPF has lots of meets in California so I may go there next as I mentioned earlier in my first post.

I also don’t have much claim to fame in the sport either. I got started in this sport kind of late in life. I was featured in a newspaper article with my picture posted in the Pocatello newspaper. The last AAU meet I attended I won Best Raw Lifter. Lastly, I won the “gold” medal at the 2005 AAU Worlds for the 275 weight class. I count most of my success just reaching the goals that I have set myself that takes place in my gym where I train alone and nobody sees my PR’s.

Andy

155

[quote]Dr.PowerClean wrote:
What a depressing thread. The only reason I read it is because I respect HT, who is a strong man doing his best with a torn up body and not afraid to post logs with videos of his daily battles.

I do understand the RAW vs. gear issues, and it clearly does cause problems in “comprehending” the relative values of certain PR lifts.
But come on, the lifting community as a whole needs to come together, because nobody else really gives a shit, regardless if it’s PL, OL or BB.

We do this stuff because we love it, right? And not just the PR's, but the training, the discipline, the feeling of being and looking strong.

Maybe I'm too old and out of touch, and don't understand some unwritten internet laws such as trolls must be destroyed, cyber PR's challenged, etc. But I know a bad thing when I see one, and this thread is not in any way constructive, enlightening or entertaining. Or am I missing something?                        Doc

[/quote]

Your absolutely right, but these debates on the internet are about getting attention. The people that start them usually do not lift competitively, no loger lift competitively or are 12 years old.

The people people who actually compete (both unequipped and geared) typically all get along. The monsters in the cage are the competitors, and the crowds like to try and poke sticks through the bars to try and get the monsters riled up. It doesn’t usually work.

The biggest problem is the anonymity of the internet. People minimal experience have the same platform as bonifide experts. That is why very few real lifters post on most web sites. Unfortunately it portrays the sport as more contentious than it really is.

The good news is the active lifters in the trenches (unequipped and geared) pretty much don’t care if the trolls respect them or not. I compete both unequipped and equipped and the lifters respect each other. That is enough.

1 Other points: The sport never was mainstream. It was pulled from TV because of legal issues. Nothing to do with gear.

156

why does one have to be an active competitor to have a valid opinion?

157

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
why does one have to be an active competitor to have a valid opinion?[/quote]

They don’t, necessarily. There are good arguments both for and against gear, drugs and most aspects of the sport. And these arguments can potentially be made by almost anyone.

But a large number of the posts is these types of threads are opinions from people without substantial actual knowledge or first hand experience of the subject. Opinions based on other peoples opinions or internet videos are basically worthless.

Competitors, judges, meet promotors and people currently active in the sport will typically have more accurate information than those not active in the sport. The opinions shouldn’t be given the same weight. Just because everyone has a right to an opinion doesn’t mean everyone’s opinion is right.

158

[quote]Raw Power wrote:
mozhne wrote:

Hello Raw,

Probably did run into you in Pocatello. Last time I lifted there was 2000. I don’t know Dr. Anderson, Don’t really know anyone who is in any leadership position in Powerlifting. Back a few posts when I talked about mentoring new powerlifters and then you mention how Bill now only has one meet per year, I think the two are related.

I have spoken with two other former lifters (while working in the Potato industry in fact, apwsearch, had to stick that in, this guy told me to go dig spuds for some weird attempt at an insult). Anyway both of these guys have left the sport for the same reasons. Gear use. Now these are only three guys, me and the other two. None of us ever made a mark in Powerlifting but guys like us are the backbone of Powerlifting.

You take that base away and little by little the whole thing dies. You live here in the west. How is Powerlifting here in the West? In Idaho it is all but dead. I think the link is Gear use. People see through the BS and want nothing to do with this sport.

Barry

Dr. Sean Anderson took over the USAPL chair in Idaho in 2004 I believe. You may know Brad Compton (I think that’s his last name) who held that position for a number of years. He lost interest in the sport and left so Dr. Anderson stepped in. I sure loved those meets that Bill Davis put on. I remember the first time I went up there. I couldn’t believe it. It was a first-class production in every way not to mention all the perks on the side for the lifters.

I started to notice year after year the number of lifters declining. There were a lot of guys from Utah that came up there and they decided to start attending the APF meets instead put on somewhere there in Idaho. I think it was called Snake River.

I got to know Bill Davis and he shared to me that every meet he was taking a loss financially, but he would still have the meets. Finally, due to personal and financial reasons he had to cut back down to just one meet per year and that’s the state championship in November. Dr. Anderson has struggled to bring lifters in and I admire his admiration and dedication to the USAPL there. He is an IPF judge and competes himself in the Masters 50-55 class internationally. He’s told me that a lot of lifters are going other places because the USAPL judging is too strict and they like using a monolift along with many other trivial reasons.

Since I have been competing there has been only one USAPL meet here in Nevada that I know of and that was in 2002 up in Elko. The USAPL state chair quit up there so there is nothing going on in Nevada that I am aware of. I’ve always had to travel to compete. I started going down to Arizona when the USAPL started up down there to support it. One of them was a total joke and very lifter unfriendly and the other one became a marketing circus in which the meet organizer attempted to bring in several other lifting venues outside of the USAPL and mix it in with the USAPL lifters. With Johnny Graham judging that day and his strict judging it made those outside of the USAPL cry loudly.

Sadly, I do think some are leaving for gear use and it goes in both directions. There are a great many who want more gear, slack judging, want to use monolift racks, etc., all to push up bigger numbers. Others like myself that don’t like all the gear use are left with few alternatives. It was told to me many times to conform and grow with the sport or get out.

I had friends up there in Idaho who would say to me, “Andy, I got a lot of respect for what you are doing and I would like to compete that way. I wish it were possible to have a meet where we lifted old-school like that or in garage style meet.” Well, it’s just not going to happen.

As you know, federations like “100% RAW” that you linked to have nothing out here in the West. I did the very first ever WNPF meet they held out here in Vegas. They never came back. They are strictly East coast too. The AAU is mainly on the East coast as well. Martin Drake, who is with the AAU, has normally one meet a year out here down in San Diego. I’ve learned that the USPF has lots of meets in California so I may go there next as I mentioned earlier in my first post.

I also don’t have much claim to fame in the sport either. I got started in this sport kind of late in life. I was featured in a newspaper article with my picture posted in the Pocatello newspaper. The last AAU meet I attended I won Best Raw Lifter. Lastly, I won the “gold” medal at the 2005 AAU Worlds for the 275 weight class. I count most of my success just reaching the goals that I have set myself that takes place in my gym where I train alone and nobody sees my PR’s.

Andy
[/quote]

Yea Andy those meets in Poky were real good. Pizza for the lifters and just a first class operation all the way around. Having been away from the sport for awhile I appreciate the info on how far Powerlifting has fallen here in the West.

I went to Elko one time also. They held the meet there in the Stockman’s casino. It was just a bench meet but a real good time. There was a kid (22 year old or so) from Carlin, Nevada at that meet who at a body wt of about 190 benched 435 raw. Now Carlin Nevada has about 300 people in the town and this guy worked out at home in a shed.

The Snake River meet you mention is still going. They had an Item in the paper (Idaho Falls) about it. Just was last month though I don’t know a thing about it or who lifted etc. I started this post with a pretty confrontational tone. I think that was needed. Something needs to shake lifters up to reform Powerlifting.

You have alot of guts to compete without gear. Lifters like you and a couple of the other raw guys who have posted in this thread are the way to reform Powerlifting. The lifters need to show up to a meet, wherever that meet is, and compete without equipment. Little by little the tide may turn, or Powerlifting can continue to die like it has here in the west.

Barry

159

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
why does one have to be an active competitor to have a valid opinion?[/quote]

Actually, the more a person knows about the subject, the more valid his opinion is. You don’t need to be a competitor. It’s enough that you know the sport.

160

liftergary and HT, thanks for your posts, I’m not depressed anymore! LOL
I did come to the realization that nostaglia blurs some things. Although in the “glory days” of the seventies, when us young strong innocents admired Alexeev, Kazmaier, Oliva, etc whithout thinking about gear, roids, etc, we also were willing to spend our lunch money on “orchic substance” and Weider supplements to gain an edge.

And back then, before the internet, there were plenty of “pre-trolls” running around. Guys prancing around the gym in a permanent lat spread and stick thin legs. Guys who said they benched 400 but no one ever saw it, and they always had an excuse not to deliver. Guys who “squatted” 600 but barely bent their knees.

 And then there were the "pseudo-experts". The Nautilus Nazi's who insited the only way to train was with their machines and their bizarre rep/set scheme. The BB's who insisted on eating FOUR dozen eggs a day and bulking up eighty pounds before embarking on the big cutting up phase eating three cans of tuna a day.

 So maybe the issues have changed, and the internet makes it easier for trolls and pseudo-experts to expound on their "knowledge". Personally, I'd rather still just ignore them, just like I did with the "real ones". But WTF, go ahead guys, stomp on em if you want.                  Doc