Raw Powerlifting

Training Powerlifting
81

Someone in the Dr. Squat site seems to have a more mature outlook in powerlifting.

Jeff S

PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:14 pm
Post subject:

Mary, I truly appreciate your post. Most of all I respect your decision to change sports in order to be able to compete in the true spirit of a strength sport. I competed in a “Raw” meet last year and loved it. Unfortunately the raw meets are few and far between. I will never squeeze into a bench shirt or squat suit - heck I can’t even stand wearing a powerlifting belt. I respect the powerlifters that push the envelope and do wear gear - it’s just not for me. Great success to you in weightlifting!

82

Seriously, I do not understand the OP. You say you have no respect for anyone who lifts with equipment or their lifts, thereby trashing the majority of the powerlifting world, the raw world record holders, himself, and Dr Hatfield and Ricky Crain, who he incidently uses to support his argument. Here’s my take on his posts:

[quote]
All I mean is that if you lift with gear I don’t have any respect for you or your lifts.[/quote]
The reason I don’t participate in raw competitions is that I don’t have a fucking choice. Even if I did, I’d still probably compete in both IPF and raw so I’d compete against a better standard of opposition. This is the situation for the BULK OF THE WORLD. Many countries don’t even have a federation to compete in, let alone both raw and equipped.

[quote]
The reason you guys won’t compete Raw is that you are scared. Scared of the true total you will hit.[/quote]
Plenty of geared lifters participate in raw competitions. The world record raw bench is held by a man who participates in an unrestricted equipment fed, home to what you called:

The raw squat record as well as an 880+ raw dead is held by Mark Henry - a lifter who lifted in equipment. And just quietly, I think Andy Bolton is capable of pulling 900 raw. In keeping with your previous statements, do you really have no respect for Henry, Mendelson, Kennelly, Hatfield, Crain, Bolton… and so on? Do you have no respect for their raw lifts because of their affiliation with equipment?

[quote]
This thread makes me soooooooo beyond angry I can’t possibly describe it. I’m gonna go beat the shit out of someone, and I’m gonna put my bench shirt on to do it, cause I’ll punch harder…

That’s a little harsh. Easy now, this is the INTERNET. Not real life. Breathe deep. [/quote]
Thats a little harsh, but attacking every equipped lift and lifter, numbering amongst them both the greats of the sport and thousands of lifters worldwide, some of which participate in these forums and happen to read what you post, somehow isn’t?!?!
You went from insulting the sport, which pisses people off but you are entitled to do, to insulting individuals, which you may be entitled to do but is bad idea because:

  1. It is not logically sound, and you can’t form a reasonable rational argument out of attacking people without basis and
  2. It makes people want to punch you in the face.

You have said that [quote]I loved this sport too at one time. This is why it makes me sick to see what it has become.[/quote] and then looked at footage of the IPF worlds and replied with a generic:

This statement is simply a soft option that ignores the facts. Namely:
Most of the countries represented in the IPF do NOT have a raw federation and THERE IS NO TRULY INTERNATIONAL RAW COMPETITION.

You persist through your posts trashing the sport which is producing lifters that produce lifts you admire, such a 900+ pound raw squats, 880+ raw deadlifts and 600+ pound raw benches. You’re using Dr Hatfield as your main “proof” to this effect.
The fact that he’s disillusioned with the sport isn’t an all-conquering argument. It’s merely his opinion. Can you tell me whether he was referring to powerlifting in U.S.? The world? Double ply? Single Ply? Knee wraps? Do you personally know him and have had a discussion with him on this topic so you are sure you are fairly representing him?
I doubt it, since you said

Again, let me repeat for mozhne’s benefit:
For many people, if they want to compete they only have the option of an equipped fed.
If you want to compete against people at your level, you will need to wear equipment if you’re in an equipped fed
If you are carrying an injury to your shoulder, back or knees, you cannot safely compete without some form of equipment. I know 3 master lifters that went to the worlds that would be unable to bench even 200lbs safely without a bench shirt due to injury.
This will not cease to be true simply because of anyones opinion, least of all someone not actively involved in powerlifting.

To everyone else, I apologise for my rant and for not simply ignoring the OP like I should have.

83

FTR, Bolton pulled something like 930 in a singlet and belt.

84

Cheers Hanley, I thought he had but I hadn’t seen video of it and it hadn’t been posted as a raw WR on the sites I know.

85

Can we all stop posting on this thread so this fucker will go away?

86

Even in raw powerlifting there is a debate about gear. I am referring to the use of a belt. A belt is a form of supportive gear which aids the lifter in reaching a higher total that in most cases he would not be able to if he did not wear one. I personally hold to this view but that is just my opinion.

When I first started competing I used single-ply gear, knee wraps, belt, bench shirt, etc., that most people use and competed in the USAPL. To the OP, I probably ran into you up in Pocatello at some point. I made the trip from Las Vegas to Pocatello twice a year to attend Bill’s meets at Fitness, Inc., Dr. Anderson, USAPL state chair, is a personal friend of mine and I enjoyed supportive the venue up there.

I never really enjoyed wearing gear and didn’t train in it that much. Me trying to bring it into the picture right before a meet always worked against me. I started to not enjoy what I was doing and just decided to make a personal change to make powerlifting fun for me again. I wanted to compete the way that I train and that was without gear.

Bill Davis up in Pocatello has gone down to just one meet a year due to lack of interest from lifters in that area. For me that means I have to look for other meet venues near where I live. I’ve competed in some AAU meets and lifted raw (no belt either). The USPF in California has a lot of meets all throughout the year and that is where I’ll be going next. They don’t have a raw category, but who cares. Am I at a disadvantage by doing that? Yes, but it’s not about the plastic trophies, plaques and $5.00 medals anymore. I’ve ran out of room in my living room for these ornaments. Those are just dust collectors in the house that nobody cares about or understands. It’s all about making powerlifting fun for me personally and challenging.

A raw lifter who signs up to do a meet in a geared federation or a federation that has a raw category but still allows a belt really has no right to complain about what the others are doing. I only compete against myself and trying to better my last PR’s.

I think gear in some federations as well as judging standards in some federations is a complete joke as do many others think as well. The IPF seems to have it together in many ways. There is no raw category there so anyone who wants to go to the top and be competitive is going to have to wear gear. That’s just the way it is. It’s all a matter of what the lifter’s goals and dreams are.

For those that want to learn how to use gear, train in it and use it for competing then that’s great. Raw lifters have to accept the reality that for the majority of those in competitive powerlifting that’s just the way it’s going to be. I don’t attend meets where everyone is wearing gear and tell them the way it should be. I just do my own thing. It’s always the geared lifters who come up to me and are curious as to why I am not wearing no gear at all and most of all not even a belt.

I simply tell them,“…because I don’t want to”.

When they take first or whatever place it is I’ll be the first one to shake their hand.

Raw powerlifting is always going to be a minority compared to geared powerlifting. I don’t see it turning around any time soon if ever for that matter. I’ll just “shut up and train”.

87

[quote]Joe84 wrote:
No one likes powerlifting because the gear is like cheating in most peoples’ minds, and you also don’t really have a frame of reference for the lifts, i.e. what is a 600 shirted bench equivalent too??
[/quote]

It’s equivalent to a 600 shirted bench, that’s what it’s equivalent to. Do you even listen to yourself? It’s ridiculous to say that any lift “equates” to another. What is a 400 unequipped bench equal to?

88

[quote]OneDay wrote:
Can we all stop posting on this thread so this fucker will go away?[/quote]

Done.

I am acutely embarrassed for having wasted as much time with this yo-yo as I have. I need to spend my energies on something more productive like focusing on myself and three of our lifters who are getting ready for a meet in 3 weeks.

89

Excellent post. Much respect.

[quote]Raw Power wrote:
Even in raw powerlifting there is a debate about gear. I am referring to the use of a belt. A belt is a form of supportive gear which aids the lifter in reaching a higher total that in most cases he would not be able to if he did not wear one. I personally hold to this view but that is just my opinion.

When I first started competing I used single-ply gear, knee wraps, belt, bench shirt, etc., that most people use and competed in the USAPL. To the OP, I probably ran into you up in Pocatello at some point. I made the trip from Las Vegas to Pocatello twice a year to attend Bill’s meets at Fitness, Inc., Dr. Anderson, USAPL state chair, is a personal friend of mine and I enjoyed supportive the venue up there.

I never really enjoyed wearing gear and didn’t train in it that much. Me trying to bring it into the picture right before a meet always worked against me. I started to not enjoy what I was doing and just decided to make a personal change to make powerlifting fun for me again. I wanted to compete the way that I train and that was without gear.

Bill Davis up in Pocatello has gone down to just one meet a year due to lack of interest from lifters in that area. For me that means I have to look for other meet venues near where I live. I’ve competed in some AAU meets and lifted raw (no belt either). The USPF in California has a lot of meets all throughout the year and that is where I’ll be going next. They don’t have a raw category, but who cares. Am I at a disadvantage by doing that? Yes, but it’s not about the plastic trophies, plaques and $5.00 medals anymore. I’ve ran out of room in my living room for these ornaments. Those are just dust collectors in the house that nobody cares about or understands. It’s all about making powerlifting fun for me personally and challenging.

A raw lifter who signs up to do a meet in a geared federation or a federation that has a raw category but still allows a belt really has no right to complain about what the others are doing. I only compete against myself and trying to better my last PR’s.

I think gear in some federations as well as judging standards in some federations is a complete joke as do many others think as well. The IPF seems to have it together in many ways. There is no raw category there so anyone who wants to go to the top and be competitive is going to have to wear gear. That’s just the way it is. It’s all a matter of what the lifter’s goals and dreams are.

For those that want to learn how to use gear, train in it and use it for competing then that’s great. Raw lifters have to accept the reality that for the majority of those in competitive powerlifting that’s just the way it’s going to be. I don’t attend meets where everyone is wearing gear and tell them the way it should be. I just do my own thing. It’s always the geared lifters who come up to me and are curious as to why I am not wearing no gear at all and most of all not even a belt.

I simply tell them,“…because I don’t want to”.

When they take first or whatever place it is I’ll be the first one to shake their hand.

Raw powerlifting is always going to be a minority compared to geared powerlifting. I don’t see it turning around any time soon if ever for that matter. I’ll just “shut up and train”. [/quote]

90

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
Joe84 wrote:
No one likes powerlifting because the gear is like cheating in most peoples’ minds, and you also don’t really have a frame of reference for the lifts, i.e. what is a 600 shirted bench equivalent too??

It’s equivalent to a 600 shirted bench, that’s what it’s equivalent to. Do you even listen to yourself? It’s ridiculous to say that any lift “equates” to another. What is a 400 unequipped bench equal to?

[/quote]

My point was that you CAN’T really compare them you dumb fuck.

91

[quote]mozhne wrote:
One more. Oh this is good.

[/quote]

Yeah- that’s exactly what SHE said.

92

[quote]ChaseT wrote:
Yes, mozhne is a troll, but it does appear that those posts from Hatfield are genuine.

http://drsquat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2118
[/quote]

I remember this post. Huge, cryass, sour grapes bullshit. She had access to the same stuff and frankly, competing at a National event should have known what she was getting into. I don’t have a gram of sympathy for her and think she should prepare better next time. No respect for that behavior at all.

If anybody on here things Hatfield wasn’t pushing the limits of the gear he had access to at the time they are absolutely delusional. He is a hypocrite for what he wrote and appears to realize it as he backed out of that thread in a hurry and took it offline with the OP. Wonder why?

Really, I promise. This is my last post.

93

[quote]Joe84 wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Joe84 wrote:
No one likes powerlifting because the gear is like cheating in most peoples’ minds, and you also don’t really have a frame of reference for the lifts, i.e. what is a 600 shirted bench equivalent too??

It’s equivalent to a 600 shirted bench, that’s what it’s equivalent to. Do you even listen to yourself? It’s ridiculous to say that any lift “equates” to another. What is a 400 unequipped bench equal to?

My point was that you CAN’T really compare them you dumb fuck. [/quote]

no shit asshole, but what does not being able to compare tehm prove? You can’t compare squats and unequipped bench presses either, does that mean squats are you useless?

I cannot think of a SINGLE lift that is “equivalent” to another lift.

Certain individuals may have ‘indicator’ lifts, knowing that if one goes up another lift is likely to go up, and by an approximately similar amount. But that is highly individualized and will not always hold true. Your question “what is a 600 shirted bench equivalent to?” is evidence that you dont have the slightest idea of what you’re talking about, or for that matter, the slightest idea of training in general.

94

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
ChaseT wrote:
Yes, mozhne is a troll, but it does appear that those posts from Hatfield are genuine.

http://drsquat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2118

I remember this post. Huge, cryass, sour grapes bullshit. She had access to the same stuff and frankly, competing at a National event should have known what she was getting into. I don’t have a gram of sympathy for her and think she should prepare better next time. No respect for that behavior at all.

If anybody on here things Hatfield wasn’t pushing the limits of the gear he had access to at the time they are absolutely delusional. He is a hypocrite for what he wrote and appears to realize it as he backed out of that thread in a hurry and took it offline with the OP. Wonder why?

Really, I promise. This is my last post.[/quote]

yeah and it also sounds like she didnt want to deal with the bruising and shit to win, which is kind of wussy in my humble opinion.

Just lifting to have fun and not bothering with the gear and shit is fine too if thats what you want but dont bitch about gear if your not willing to make the sacrifices to win. maybe i could put this in a more coherrent format.

95

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
Joe84 wrote:

My point was that you CAN’T really compare them you dumb fuck.

no shit asshole, but what does not being able to compare tehm prove? You can’t compare squats and unequipped bench presses either, does that mean squats are you useless?

I cannot think of a SINGLE lift that is “equivalent” to another lift.

Certain individuals may have ‘indicator’ lifts, knowing that if one goes up another lift is likely to go up, and by an approximately similar amount. But that is highly individualized and will not always hold true. Your question “what is a 600 shirted bench equivalent to?” is evidence that you dont have the slightest idea of what you’re talking about, or for that matter, the slightest idea of training in general.[/quote]

“what is a 600 shirted bench equivalent to?” was a fucking rhetorical question used to illustrate the point that you can’t compare them. Can you comprehend that? I didn’t want or need an actual answer to it but you thought you’d jump all over it like a fag on a dick and see if you could show some of your superior know it all knowledge by rambling on about something that is illrelevant to my post.

Now not being able to compare RAW and geared lifts proves that people cannot RELATE to the sport and therefore will have no interest in watching it or supporting it. Have you ever tried explaining how gear works to a layperson?? I have and it’s a deer in headlights reaction, people think it’s retarded and equate it to cheating.

96

[quote]Joe84 wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Joe84 wrote:

My point was that you CAN’T really compare them you dumb fuck.

no shit asshole, but what does not being able to compare tehm prove? You can’t compare squats and unequipped bench presses either, does that mean squats are you useless?

I cannot think of a SINGLE lift that is “equivalent” to another lift.

Certain individuals may have ‘indicator’ lifts, knowing that if one goes up another lift is likely to go up, and by an approximately similar amount. But that is highly individualized and will not always hold true. Your question “what is a 600 shirted bench equivalent to?” is evidence that you dont have the slightest idea of what you’re talking about, or for that matter, the slightest idea of training in general.

“what is a 600 shirted bench equivalent to?” was a fucking rhetorical question used to illustrate the point that you can’t compare them. Can you comprehend that? I didn’t want or need an actual answer to it but you thought you’d jump all over it like a fag on a dick and see if you could show some of your superior know it all knowledge by rambling on about something that is illrelevant to my post.

Now not being able to compare RAW and geared lifts proves that people cannot RELATE to the sport and therefore will have no interest in watching it or supporting it. Have you ever tried explaining how gear works to a layperson?? I have and it’s a deer in headlights reaction, people think it’s retarded and equate it to cheating. [/quote]

Can YOU comprehend that you were making a stupid point in saying that you can’t compare an unequipped bench with a shirted bench? Lets try this again - you cant compare shirted benches to unequipped benches, nor to squats, nor to power cleans, nor to curls … are you starting to get the point? I’d like to know how pointing out the fact that you are an idiot qualifies me as “rambling on” about my “know it all knowledge”?

And dont bring up this crap that “people can’t relate to it” either. The average person cant relate to ANY of the top numbers. Go tell someone that the world record deadlift is 700 - they’ll believe you. They have no concept of what Konstantinov’s 9-something represents. On the other hand Lou Ferrigno writes in his book that he deadlifted 2600 lbs and his editors dont laugh it off the page - because htey dont know.

Or what about the fact that between Mendelson, Winters and Hoornstra we have THREE guys walking this planet who are capable of a 700 bench press, one of whom (Mendelson) has already done it, another (Hoornstra) has done it in training and the third I believe has every ability to do it. The average person on the street doesnt know whether a 550 lb bench press is good, elite, or the world record. Note that I didnt mention Bolton’s 1003 dl or Kennelly’s recent record (1,053?) because all that big, bad gear makes those numbers soooo, hard to comprehend, not like the little, wimpy, easily comprehended raw records.

97

Are people stupid enough to believe that the average guy on the street will EVER relate to powerlifting??? Because that’s really fucking funny.

As KBC said, the average guy on the street has no context for the number some of these guys are putting up. You could just as easily say 500lb or 900lb and he STILL wouldn’t have a clue.

I have absolutely no idea how you can not comprehend something so simple.

If gear was taken out of powerlifting, do you think it would become more popular?

Oh and “what is a 600lb shirted bench equivalent to”? That’s absoultely fucking hilarious and down right stupid.

What’s a 400lb squat by a 165lb guy equivalent to if you’r;e not 165?? (I know there’s forumlas for that, but I don’t think the average guy on the street would care enough to work them out).

What does that tell you? Unless powerlifting can somehow be broadcast so only people who are the same weight as a lifter, with similar bone structue, will have a basis for equivalency. Since that seems to be what you have a hard on for.

Do you not see how ridiculous that is?

MAybe Formula one cars should be made to the specs of road going cars so people can compare. Oh no wait, they already do that, it’s called The Touring Car Championship and no-body gives a shit about it.

98

[quote]skidmark wrote:
Frankly - this is like arguing which is better: Coke or Pepsi.

RAW and geared powerlifting are really two different and equally valid sports that just happen to have the same lifts in common. One is not better than the other, simply different. And it’s really a matter of the individual’s preference and value system which one he chooses to pursue.

Adherents of these different sports accomplish nothing by arguing with one another about it. It might be better to simply recognize them as different and respect the competitors of each for their accomplishments in their chosen sport.

I don’t expect that the “debate” will end, though.[/quote]

I don’t expect that the “debate” will end, though

…and it hasn’t. Started nasty and has devolved from marginally logical debate to simple-minded vituperation. Ah well, good clean fun, I suppose. Enjoy.

99

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
Joe84 wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Joe84 wrote:

My point was that you CAN’T really compare them you dumb fuck.

no shit asshole, but what does not being able to compare tehm prove? You can’t compare squats and unequipped bench presses either, does that mean squats are you useless?

I cannot think of a SINGLE lift that is “equivalent” to another lift.

Certain individuals may have ‘indicator’ lifts, knowing that if one goes up another lift is likely to go up, and by an approximately similar amount. But that is highly individualized and will not always hold true. Your question “what is a 600 shirted bench equivalent to?” is evidence that you dont have the slightest idea of what you’re talking about, or for that matter, the slightest idea of training in general.

“what is a 600 shirted bench equivalent to?” was a fucking rhetorical question used to illustrate the point that you can’t compare them. Can you comprehend that? I didn’t want or need an actual answer to it but you thought you’d jump all over it like a fag on a dick and see if you could show some of your superior know it all knowledge by rambling on about something that is illrelevant to my post.

Now not being able to compare RAW and geared lifts proves that people cannot RELATE to the sport and therefore will have no interest in watching it or supporting it. Have you ever tried explaining how gear works to a layperson?? I have and it’s a deer in headlights reaction, people think it’s retarded and equate it to cheating.

Can YOU comprehend that you were making a stupid point in saying that you can’t compare an unequipped bench with a shirted bench? Lets try this again - you cant compare shirted benches to unequipped benches, nor to squats, nor to power cleans, nor to curls … are you starting to get the point? I’d like to know how pointing out the fact that you are an idiot qualifies me as “rambling on” about my “know it all knowledge”?

[/quote]

Can you read or what? I said you can’t compare them, so why do you keep saying “you can’t compare them” to me?

100

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Are people stupid enough to believe that the average guy on the street will EVER relate to powerlifting??? Because that’s really fucking funny.

As KBC said, the average guy on the street has no context for the number some of these guys are putting up. You could just as easily say 500lb or 900lb and he STILL wouldn’t have a clue.

I have absolutely no idea how you can not comprehend something so simple.

If gear was taken out of powerlifting, do you think it would become more popular?

Oh and “what is a 600lb shirted bench equivalent to”? That’s absoultely fucking hilarious and down right stupid.

What’s a 400lb squat by a 165lb guy equivalent to if you’r;e not 165?? (I know there’s forumlas for that, but I don’t think the average guy on the street would care enough to work them out).

What does that tell you? Unless powerlifting can somehow be broadcast so only people who are the same weight as a lifter, with similar bone structue, will have a basis for equivalency. Since that seems to be what you have a hard on for.

Do you not see how ridiculous that is?

MAybe Formula one cars should be made to the specs of road going cars so people can compare. Oh no wait, they already do that, it’s called The Touring Car Championship and no-body gives a shit about it.[/quote]

i respect your opinion, you make a good point, but i am sorry i just disagree with you. powerlifting WAS at one time more readily accepted by the public, at my age i remember when on “wide world of sports” that came on the weekends that pl was often covered.

now for some reason that does not happen anymore. you can contend that PL would have fallen off the mainstream radar anyhow, for the reasons you stated above, and you may very well be right.

but one can also contend that the “evolution”(nicest word i could come up with) of the sport into what it is today has made it more confusing and unaccessible to the public and perhaps less understood and respected.

not that it makes much of a difference, PL has ALWAYS been for the most part a participatory sport, that is, it has very little fan base outside of those who actually PARTICIPATE in it.

BUT, things have gotten worse in that regard. for example, i spent a year or so training at a geared fed PL club in the Bay area a few years back(diablo barbell), now days when conversating with people who ask me questions about my lifting experiences at my current gym, Diablo comes up. it is always difficult to explain what was going on down there, as i always had to qualify numbers with the gear that was worn, or the type of boards or boxes used.

it would be nice for a change, just to be able to say: x benched y, and z benched q, instead of adjusting for the gear so the lay person or “average everyday lifter” can get a grasp on how much somebody could really lift relative to something they could relate to, like a typical raw bench or a full squat without gear from a set of racks.