'Raw Deal' Busts Labs Across U.S.

Pharma
141

[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
The biggest problem with testosterone and other androgens is the lack of patent that brings in the big money. They have all been around too long for anyone to have proprietary rights, meaning the profit to any one company would be too small to spur legislative action.[/quote]

But I’m not talking about legislative action. I’m talking about using the regulations that currently exist. This whole raid revolved around illegal manufacturing and distribution, not the current legal manufacture and distribution that people use to get their TRT and HRT.

On the patents, any manufacturer can come up with a novel molecule or formula and be patent pending within a month. The actual patent may take up to two years to be approved, but all they need is patent pending to do business.

142

[quote]pushharder wrote:
If anything our government might be even MORE focused on strangling the lives of everyday Americans if it didn’t have a lot entanglements overseas.[/quote]

I think it works the other way around, actually.

The biggest danger in human thought is our basic pack instinct; that need for tribalism that says “Us vs. Them”. Regardless of what the religious right says, regardless of what the New Atheists are preaching, in spite of the propaganda of the right or left wings in politics – the threat isn’t the other side. It’s that primal instict to declare the other person ‘different’, dehumanize them, demonize them, and make them a safe enemy.

History seems to indicate that when cultures have big, safe, distant enemies that they can safely dehumanize and blow up/stab/wedgie to death, we foster a stronger, more possessive sense of “Us” to counter the stronger “Them”. Anybody not conforming with “Us” gets a shitkicking. They end up demonized, cast out, made a sub-category of “Them”, separate from the big enemy but still cast out from the group.

In the 1950’s, during the Cold War, we saw what McCarthyism did to the USA, and it even bled up into Canada. We think it’s odd that steroids and physical culture are demonized in an era of war and rampant obesity? They managed to flip out and demonize movies and comic books.

143

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
But I’m not talking about legislative action. I’m talking about using the regulations that currently exist. This whole raid revolved around illegal manufacturing and distribution, not the current legal manufacture and distribution that people use to get their TRT and HRT.

On the patents, any manufacturer can come up with a novel molecule or formula and be patent pending within a month. The actual patent may take up to two years to be approved, but all they need is patent pending to do business.
[/quote]

I dig the plan, but I think we need a broader approach as well; a more organized approach that regales the media, puts forth spokespeople, and makes use of both lawyers and doctors who are a part of physical fitness culture to help strengthen our case. Calling in experts to counter propaganda testimony with raw facts, again and again, until minds are opened.

The problem with trying to use the current system to make the change is that the current system is set up to punish people who seek that change. Doctors fear to prescribe steroids and/or testosterone as they can be hammered for it, like a modern-day witch-hunt where their livelihood is at stake rather than their life. Anti-aging clinics have been put under investigation, and apparently some even raided, for their services.

144

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Schwarzenegger wrote:
The biggest problem with testosterone and other androgens is the lack of patent that brings in the big money. They have all been around too long for anyone to have proprietary rights, meaning the profit to any one company would be too small to spur legislative action.

But I’m not talking about legislative action. I’m talking about using the regulations that currently exist. This whole raid revolved around illegal manufacturing and distribution, not the current legal manufacture and distribution that people use to get their TRT and HRT.

On the patents, any manufacturer can come up with a novel molecule or formula and be patent pending within a month. The actual patent may take up to two years to be approved, but all they need is patent pending to do business.
[/quote]

Pharmaceutical companies already produce AAS legally and distribute them legally, to doctors. The doctors cannot distribute them without prescriptions and even then they are sometimes iffy about it because it’s a schedule three drug. You seem to understand this part, which confuses me as to why you don’t think legislative action is necessary to bring AAS to the common user.

As far as patents go, this is constantly done. Most of these new molecules are marketed as pro-hormones and they are quite inferior to what is already available. There is no demand to produce a unique molecule because when it comes to supply and demand what is already available more than saturates the market’s need. Regardless, there is no point in producing a new molecule that is going to be illegal to sell to the general public, which is where the big bucks come from. They would still need legislative action to declassify AAS as a controlled substance, or change the indicated prescription uses, to be able to sell their product.

145

[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
Schwarzenegger wrote:
The biggest problem with testosterone and other androgens is the lack of patent that brings in the big money. They have all been around too long for anyone to have proprietary rights, meaning the profit to any one company would be too small to spur legislative action.

But I’m not talking about legislative action. I’m talking about using the regulations that currently exist. This whole raid revolved around illegal manufacturing and distribution, not the current legal manufacture and distribution that people use to get their TRT and HRT.

On the patents, any manufacturer can come up with a novel molecule or formula and be patent pending within a month. The actual patent may take up to two years to be approved, but all they need is patent pending to do business.

Pharmaceutical companies already produce AAS legally and distribute them legally, to doctors. The doctors cannot distribute them without prescriptions and even then they are sometimes iffy about it because it’s a schedule three drug. You seem to understand this part, which confuses me as to why you don’t think legislative action is necessary to bring AAS to the common user.

As far as patents go, this is constantly done. Most of these new molecules are marketed as pro-hormones and they are quite inferior to what is already available. There is no demand to produce a unique molecule because when it comes to supply and demand what is already available more than saturates the market’s need. Regardless, there is no point in producing a new molecule that is going to be illegal to sell to the general public, which is where the big bucks come from. They would still need legislative action to declassify AAS as a controlled substance, or change the indicated prescription uses, to be able to sell their product.[/quote]

Who do you suppose is more well equipped to deal with lawmakers?

Multi-billion dollar medical manufacturers who already have all of the people and money in place to make changes to the law when they need to,

Or a bunch of disorganized, comparatively pennyless AAS users who have nothing to do with legitimate drug distribution?

It seems that the main difference in the way we are thinking is that I’m looking at the laws and corporations that are in place as a tool, and you are looking at them as an obstacle.

146

I understand pharmaceutical companies have a leg up on the law system, but it just won’t net them enough money. Spend money to make AAS legal and make money, or spend the same money to make a new drug with a patent and make a LOT more money. You are on the right track with getting the pharm companies in on it, but I just don’t think they’ll be motived (not enough $$$).

147

Maybe pressure the Governator into remembering his dbol days more fondly, and treat it with the same level of respect that pot has in that state now… alternatively, I can just wake up and stop dreaming.

148

[quote]huz wrote:
Maybe pressure the Governator into remembering his dbol days more fondly, and treat it with the same level of respect that pot has in that state now… alternatively, I can just wake up and stop dreaming.[/quote]

Actually I’d imagine the most realistic approach right now would be to lobby Cali to change state regulations on AAS. Pot is still federally illegal, but state laws have been changed. The feds aren’t going to arrest someone in Cali for smoking pot.

Consequently there was a class action lawsuit when the laws first changed because people were saying the state law and federal law were different. I don’t know who the suit was against or how it turned out, I just remember hearing something about it on the news back in the day.

Seriously though, Arnold is the governor, he used AAS and personally knows many people who used AAS when they were legal so he can attest to the positive and negative side effects, and he even served on Bush’s Presidential Council on Fitness and Sport, so I’m sure he’d have a leg up right now with the next Bush in office.

Seriously though, start by changing local laws in Cali or elsewhere, and then more states will slowly add on. The feds may never come around, but their laws on AAS (much like pot) would be more of a formal disagreement with local laws. They wouldn’t enforce them unless things got out of control.

149

you can all blame jose conseco.

150

heysues, I’m an asshole but you are just a dick. Jose Conseco is a braindead fuck that is just a pitiful waste. At least the dudes like Sosa and McGuire were friendly happy dudes… But i digress, the whole roids thing here has the general public scared shitless due to the basic lack of knowledge, and a whole shitload of pussies in the elected positions

151

[quote]huz wrote:
Maybe pressure the Governator into remembering his dbol days more fondly, and treat it with the same level of respect that pot has in that state now… alternatively, I can just wake up and stop dreaming.[/quote]

I think that, of all the possible politicians to do so, Schwarzenegger is the least likely to push through more tolerant legislation for AAS and testosterone. Not that he, as an individual, is any less sympathetic to the cause – quite the opposite, I’d imagine. But the truth is that because of his past use, because of his fame as a bodybuilder, he’d be an even bigger target than most for attacks on that front. He’s a politician now, and he’s got some hefty concerns on his plate: AAS probably doesn’t even rank in the top 100. Nevermind that his touching the subject would lead to a media dogpile of epic proportions.

Of course, he’s probably the only one with the cahones for the job. Hopefully someone down there will inspire him, and he’ll prove my assumptions on his being a political animal to be dead wrong.

152

[quote]Northcott wrote:

I think that, of all the possible politicians to do so, Schwarzenegger is the least likely to push through more tolerant legislation for AAS and testosterone. Not that he, as an individual, is any less sympathetic to the cause – quite the opposite, I’d imagine. But the truth is that because of his past use, because of his fame as a bodybuilder, he’d be an even bigger target than most for attacks on that front. He’s a politician now, and he’s got some hefty concerns on his plate: AAS probably doesn’t even rank in the top 100. Nevermind that his touching the subject would lead to a media dogpile of epic proportions.

Of course, he’s probably the only one with the cahones for the job. Hopefully someone down there will inspire him, and he’ll prove my assumptions on his being a political animal to be dead wrong.

[/quote]

Good point.

153

[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
huz wrote:
Maybe pressure the Governator into remembering his dbol days more fondly, and treat it with the same level of respect that pot has in that state now… alternatively, I can just wake up and stop dreaming.

Actually I’d imagine the most realistic approach right now would be to lobby Cali to change state regulations on AAS. Pot is still federally illegal, but state laws have been changed. The feds aren’t going to arrest someone in Cali for smoking pot…[/quote]
Errr…Tell that to the DEA…They love those easy non-violent steroid and weed busts…

Suspected marijuana candymaker surrenders
33-year-old El Sobrante resident, who operated Tainted Inc. in Oakland, faces federal drug charges
By Paul Elias
ASSOCIATED PRESS

Article Launched: 10/05/2007 03:07:32 AM PDT

An El Sobrante man who founded a food factory that laces everything from cookies to barbecue sauce with marijuana surrendered Thursday to face a federal drug charge.
Michael Martin, 33, was freed on $300,000 bond.

Federal drug agents last week raided Tainted Inc. in Oakland and arrested three of Martin’s employees on drug charges for allegedly producing such marijuana-laced products as honey, soda and other snacks. Martin’s employees were arrested during the raids, but federal officials couldn’t find Martin and considered him a fugitive. Martin said he was on vacation and arranged to turn himself in once he heard of the raids, according to his supporters. Authorities said they seized several laced products during the raids.

Martin’s attorney, Sara Zalkin, did not return a telephone call.

Martin’s supporters with the nonprofit Safe Access Now organization said he was making the products for medical marijuana clubs in California.

State law has legalized marijuana use to treat medical conditions, but federal law bans the plant’s use for all purposes. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that federal law trumps state law when it comes to medical marijuana.

According to the search warrants, Tainted Inc.‘s products first came to the attention of investigators in April 2004 when an internal Drug Enforcement Administration publication reported that agents had recently seized marijuana-laced candy bars called Buddafingas and Stoners that were wrapped in packages mimicking the popular brands Butterfingers and Snickers. The article put out a call for the identity of the laced candies’ maker.
In March 2005, according to a court document filed by DEA agent William Armstrong, an anonymous e-mail to the DEA fingered Martin’s Tainted Inc. as the candies’ source. The DEA launched its investigation two months later and employed a paid informant who knew Martin to help, according to the document.

The informant bought $1,260 worth of Tainted products, including Stoner bars priced at $4 each, Mr. Greenbud bars at $8 each and $20 jars of laced peanut butter, according to the document.

The DEA also said that Tainted Inc. has purchased close to four tons of chocolate for about $14,600 from Guittard Chocolate Co. in the last two years.

The three others charged along with Martin are Jessica Sanders, Michael Anderson, and Diallo McLinn. All are free on bond. None has entered a plea…

154

[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
Seriously though, Arnold is the governor, he used AAS and personally knows many people who used AAS when they were legal so he can attest to the positive and negative side effects…[/quote]
Maybe Arnold could bring back some sanity to the kind of cycles being used, get back to hard work & sensibly dosed cycles like in the 70’s…I’d love to see a PSA with Arnold pointing at the camera saying "Terminate those excessive cycles! I support only a little Deca & D-Bol to help your injury recovery and hold on to your mass! If I could do it, you can too! Cali-fornia supports Test for men over 50!..(Well, I can dream, can’t I!/:wink:

155

[quote]Blacksnake wrote:

Errr…Tell that to the DEA…They love those easy non-violent steroid and weed busts…

Suspected marijuana candymaker surrenders
33-year-old El Sobrante resident, who operated Tainted Inc. in Oakland, faces federal drug charges
By Paul Elias
ASSOCIATED PRESS

[/quote]

No shit. What did he expect. This would be like legalizing the use of AAS but having someone illegally distribute the drug, which is about how it goes in most European countries. Possession OK, selling is not.

156

[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
No shit. What did he expect. This would be like legalizing the use of AAS but having someone illegally distribute the drug, which is about how it goes in most European countries. Possession OK, selling is not.[/quote]

Legally, that’s how things stand in Canada – legal to possess for personal use, but illegal to either buy or sell it. Cute little legal knot.

Mind you, such a big deal is made about it, and our current Neo-Con government is so damned determined to follow the USA, that I don’t know how much longer this can be maintained. As it is, procuring is damned near impossible.

I’d love for a nice, simple, mild little d-bol or t-bol cycle to be legalized. A woman can get the pill at the drop of a hat, or choose the hazards of surgery to change how she looks, but God forbid a man should make a rational, logical, educated choice about his health and well-being.

157

http://www.anthony-roberts.com/blog/

Most people here know how I feel about hooker. But - in the wake of Raw Deal, he has been much more the voice of reason and commom sense than 99% of the panic-stricken conspiracy theorists posting on the boards right now.

His latest entry kind of shines the light on the REAL reason for O.R.D. - greed. I have no way to back this up - but I have been telling everyone that would listen for the last 2 - 3 weeks that this was all about greed. Specifically Big Pharma greed.

Hooker has it right, IMO.

158

Rainjack, perhaps you’ll know more about his than I do. How do you think universal health care would affect this Big Pharma greed shit that has been going strong since the advent of the HMO? Do you think it would put a damper on their political control? I’m not sure if universal health care would impact pharmaceutical companies much, or if it is more non-pharmaceutical health care.

159

[quote]rainjack wrote:
http://www.anthony-roberts.com/blog/

Most people here know how I feel about hooker. But - in the wake of Raw Deal, he has been much more the voice of reason and commom sense than 99% of the panic-stricken conspiracy theorists posting on the boards right now.

His latest entry kind of shines the light on the REAL reason for O.R.D. - greed. I have no way to back this up - but I have been telling everyone that would listen for the last 2 - 3 weeks that this was all about greed. Specifically Big Pharma greed.

Hooker has it right, IMO. [/quote]

Wow, there is some very good logic in his post.
If that is the case though, why would the govt have changed AAS to a scheduled drug in the first place?
They must have known that making the stuff impossible to get would drive it underground.
I would think that if money was their main concern that they just would have taxed the shit out of AAS back in the 80’s like they are doing now with smokes.

On the other hand, I hope that the all mighty dollar is what drove these recent chain of events because it would make loosening the regulations of getting a scrip much easier. Personally I don’t care if they did tax the shit out of it. To me it’s worth the extra cash for the piece of mind knowing that i can’t be prosecuted for using.

160

Making AAS Schedule III controlled substances happened back in 1992. That was 15 years ago. The life extension/TRT movement didn’t really get into full swing until recently.

I think the main reason for changing AAS to Sched III had everything to do with politics and ignorance. Borrowing from Roberts’ line of thinking, as the life extension movement gains in popularity, so will education of the masses. When you have a demographic as willing to spend money as the 35-60 group, things will start to change.