Each to their own mate
Some of us work in the fitness industry and want to look the part
And being leaner makes those muscles look even bigger 
Yes if you work n the fitness industry I can see you would want to look the part and even if you donāt itās your prerogative to look as you please. It is interesting how these little skinny guys I see all over YouTube doing chins etc look pretty massive because their muscles pop out on their small frame. Scott
Happy New Year everyone!
Dr Darden: At what rate can you expect muscle growth during any of your routines? Of course it will decrease over time, but I am curious what the average growth has been under your studies? My question is primarily directed re long-term results, meaning after one, two or even three years. Have you been able to do any follow-up? Is there any generalized estimates to be made? Please comment.
== Scott==
Mr Pettersson, what kind of growth rate have you experienced over the years? Over the years Iād progress a rep or two every workout if I was lucky. Right now with 30 10 30 Iāve been going up a few reps almost every workout , from 10 to 14 sometimes , sometimes less, but I donāt know if thatās really muscle growth or just getting better at the movement or whatever ? Itās great to see weights and reps going up but I donāt know if that really translates into actual muscle growth as visually I can see no change. Maybe the physical change is so microscopic it could take a year or more so actually see the change? I guess one can get stronger without seeing it in your physique .
Imhoā¦if you are progressing in weight and/or reps, you have to have some growthā¦it could be microscopic but there has to be something, dontcha think
== Scott==
I would like to think so but I donāt know? So hereās a question for everybody , so be honest, how often in your years of training have you been able to look in the mirror and say I can tell my tricep or whatever looks like it grew a bit. Maybe actual physical changes come so infrequently that we donāt notice any changes even if they are there?
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My bodyfat dropped to the high single digits over the years from eating cleaner, fewer calories, adding cardio, etc. However, I did lose some muscle as well. I ended up boosting my calories this past summer gaining about 15 pounds. Some of it fat, but some of it muscle according to tape measure and skin calipers. Surely just re-gaining muscle I once had, but what surprised me is how much stronger I am nowā¦lifting more weight without even trying that hard. It just basically just happened. So, I think it comes down to a balance of how much fat you want to carry and then how much muscle you can in the process. I really donāt want to gain much more fat at this point even though I am sure it would help me (re)gain more muscle.
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Over 30 years ago I did HIT and triathlons. I was as lean as I ever wanted to be, about 167 and the best shape I ever was HIT wise or cardio wise. Through the years my weight has fluctuated . I donāt recall having more or less fat effecting how strong I was in the least . Iām roughly using the same weight I lift these days as I used back then give or take a few pounds. It seemed like after a short while the weights sort of leveled off and I always hovered around the same weight on the bar within 5 or ten pounds.
Scott
The people on my supervised programs in Gainesville averaged 1/2 pound of muscular growth each week for six weeks. These are typical people and not athletes or bodybuilders.
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Thats really good. Your programs have always worked for me. I like to put my own twist on it sometimes.
Was that the xforce program?
I definitely think there is an optimum amount of bodyfat to be had for muscle growth. Probably for metabolic reasons or whatever. And its not diuretic roided out stage shredded.
So im not an expert but I do believe that when you regained weight after dropping some and leaning out, when ya said you felt stronger, you most likely are stronger than the last time you held that bodyweight even with the fat increase.
The optimal amount of bodyfat probably even varies by individual depending on how your body hormonally and metabolically responds to it.
I could be wrong but ive always read that when your in a caloric surplus from a lean state. Your already nutritient partioning better.
If 80% of your bodyweight was fat and 20% muscle. Then 80% of your excess energy intake will go back to that fat. Making up the numbers. But the idea is, the fatter you are the more your food intake goes into your fat instead of your muscle tissue. Why most good programs for someone carrying far too much fat focus on the fat loss primarily and then shift to muscle mass once your no longer 400 pounds.
No. X-Force machines stimulated twice the results of conventional equipment. You can check out the complete data in my book, The Body Fat Breakthrough.
I guess that shows the value of a much heavier eccentric following the concentric ?
Scott
I suppose the scale of increasing improvement is HIT (least), HIT with machines, HIT with Xforce (greatest) ?
Maybe machines may be better for typical people anyway since there is less need for technical mastery of lifts. Superior eccentrics with xforce are an additional benefit.
ED will understand this better than my guess.
Iām sure this has been said a million times but Iāve never thought much about X Force so Iām thinking not having an X Force machine for curls for example one could pick a weight that is a little to heavy for the concentric portion of a curl and have a spotter there to assist you a little on the concentric part and then let you handle the eccentric part?
Scott
When I have somebody around that can help me out (Iām friendly with a bunch of different people at the gym), I like to finish my machine preacher curls where I begin doing the concentric, and they pull down on the machine to add a bunch of extra resistance on the eccentric. When I fail at that, they assist with the concentric and let me handle the eccentric. Kind of like a mechanical dropset. Works very well on my final set.
When Body Fat Breakthrough was published, I remember looking at Dr. Dardenās references, as well as some others that I found. My recollection was that most of the literature supports the idea that the benefits of eccentric training are greatest when the eccentric is overloaded, i.e., you use more load on the eccentric, because you are stronger in eccentric contractions.
Unfortunately, producing true overload on the eccentric isnāt that straight forward with conventional weight machines. Bilateral concentric followed by unilateral extension is one way. Having a spotter provide assistance on the concentric is another. Xforce is probably the best way to do it with a conventional weight machines. Motorized machines (ARX, Tonal, Vitruvian Form) also provide the possibility of true eccentric overload.
Dr. Dardenās 30/30/30 and 30/10/30 do not provide true eccentric overload, in the sense that the resistance is always the same.
You can argue, however, that doing a slow eccentric at the end of a set, in state of fatigue, might end up being somewhat the same thing. In other words, on that final slow rep, you reach a point where you can no longer exert enough force to concentrically control the weight, but you can still control it eccentrically. So in that fatigued state, you are experiencing true eccentric overload (relative to your fatigued concentric capabilities). However, I donāt think the use of extended duration eccentrics to achieve eccentric overload has been studied much (or at all) by researchers. So we have to rely on Dr. Dardenās case studies.
A good assessment and post.
Although one might argue that āoverloadā in the science community terms also refers to more reps and sets as well as more load. So the additional TUL of 30-10-30 and 30-30-30 would fit that particular criteria.
But logic does dictate that if you can create 40% more resistance in the negative, then you are utilising the most direct and reliable way of producing a negative overload.
All interesting stuff.
Mark
Since most of us donāt have access to XForce Iām thinking one of the Nautilus Omni machines with the foot pedal might simulate the XForce machine. The foot pedal helps up the concentric that is too heavy to do without assistance and then the weight is lowered with out assistance? Of course very few have access to the Omni machines either.
Scott