[quote]Z-Man wrote:
…
Nope, what we’re saying is that some extremists feel they are justified (wrongfully so) because of the Iraq. Prior to Iraq, the UK was not a target of these ‘Islamic Terrorists’
…[/quote]
Totally false. Britain has long been a target for Islamic terrorism,
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Z-Man wrote:
juninho wrote:
Actually, the letter that was submitted to the government by prominent Muslim leaders started with the line;
“Prime Minister, as British Muslims we urge you to do more to fight against all those who target civilians with violence, whenever and wherever that happens.”
Had you read the content of this letter or did you just choose to ommit the parts which did not tally with your view?
And they are perfectly justified in arguing a cause/effect relationship between British foreign policy and terrorism. The 7/7 bombers explicitly blamed this for their actions. What more evidence do you need? This in no way amounts to a declaration of support for the terrorists.
How dare you bring up cause and effect? Logic is not to be introduced in these arguments. We gots baddies that wear turbins and read a strange language, and do strange chants, and want to bring down our peaceful democracies. We need to kill them before they kill us.
Sheesh!
So it’s called logic now? Let’s see, I do not like XY and Z. Therefore I will blow up a few people in a coffee shop because the assholes were having coffee as an offense to Mohammed and Alah. As a result me blowing up people XY and Z are still there and A,B, and C joined them…Great logic!
I just don’t get why some people not only sympathize with terrorism, but think the terrorists are right and should be doing what they are doing and doing more of it. Anybody who disaggrees are just close minded people who want to kill all muslims. [/quote]
Hmmmm, so you’ve clumsily side-stepped the whole point of my post and then… and then… I really don’t know how the next couple of paragraphs fit in with anything to be honest;
Terrorism has little to do with religion and a lot to do with politics, so this reference is confusing.
Sorry, who are A,B and C supposed to be? I don’t get this bit.
Neither myself nor the people who signed the letter to the government sympathize with terrorism. Read again the first line of the letter. I posted it for your convenience on the last page but you have thus far ignored it. Understanding why they act in the way they do is a far cry for sympathising with them.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Z-Man wrote:
…
Nope, what we’re saying is that some extremists feel they are justified (wrongfully so) because of the Iraq. Prior to Iraq, the UK was not a target of these ‘Islamic Terrorists’
…
Totally false. Britain has long been a target for Islamic terrorism,[/quote]
Hardly on the same scale.
I have another question?
Is there a political correct word for muslims in arabian countries? I’ve been to a few arabian countries, I have a few arabian friends, and their way of Islam seems very different from muslims born (without arabian parents) in western countries. The mindsets are so different, I can hardly believe it’s the same religion.
Islam means submission, and in arabian countries most seem to interpret this as meaning blind submission towards muslim authority. In other words, blindly follow your parents, above them are priests, then higher priests, and finally their rulers. And everytime a country have problems of some sort, it’s very convenient to spread the word down the ranks about how it’s all the jews, american or generally the westerns fault. This way they have a common enemy, and forgets how their rulers abuse their resources.
[quote]Imbrondir wrote:
In other words, blindly follow your parents, above them are priests, then higher priests, and finally their rulers.[/quote]
Republican wet dream.
[quote]Imbrondir wrote:
I have another question?
Is there a political correct word for muslims in arabian countries? I’ve been to a few arabian countries, I have a few arabian friends, and their way of Islam seems very different from muslims born (without arabian parents) in western countries. The mindsets are so different, I can hardly believe it’s the same religion.
Islam means submission, and in arabian countries most seem to interpret this as meaning blind submission towards muslim authority. In other words, blindly follow your parents, above them are priests, then higher priests, and finally their rulers. And everytime a country have problems of some sort, it’s very convenient to spread the word down the ranks about how it’s all the jews, american or generally the westerns fault. This way they have a common enemy, and forgets how their rulers abuse their resources.[/quote]
I don’t think that trait is peculiar to Muslims. Muslims living in the west are obviously going to be subject to different cultural influences which will alter their mind-set.
But like I say, it’s not just Muslims, you see similar things happening in westernised Chinese and Indian communities.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Z-Man wrote:
…
Nope, what we’re saying is that some extremists feel they are justified (wrongfully so) because of the Iraq. Prior to Iraq, the UK was not a target of these ‘Islamic Terrorists’
…
Totally false. Britain has long been a target for Islamic terrorism,[/quote]
Find me a news report prior to Iraq where Britain or British Citizens were a target… I can’t remember one in the past 20ish years, but I could be wrong.
[quote]JeffR wrote:
Z-Man wrote:
I only have one question…
What is it like to be an ignorant, racist bigot that wants to group all Muslims via the actions of 0.01% of people in that religion?
The Holocaust, Rwandan Genocide, Bosnian Genocide and other atrocities are started with the support of, and succeed because of people like you. You are no different than a palestinian that classifies all israeli’s as the Enemy or the WTC hijackers, who want to kill all Americans. You are unable (too stupid) to distinguish between those that are not extreme and those that are. It is just far simpler for you to calssify every Muslim in the same fold and justify a mass extermination. A bit like someone else we know of named Bin Laden.
And you didn’t even make these questions up yourself, they have been posted time and time again, and answered time and time again.
You are comparing him to bin laden? Unbelievable. Note: nothing you say matters after that.
Just for fun, however, I’ll point out the central theme in his discussion: Why isn’t there more of an internal crackdown on these extremists?
Your bilious response did nothing to address that central issue.
JeffR
[/quote]
There’s isn’t more of a internal crackdown because the attitude and politics of your precious leader makes it very hard for moderate muslims to criticise the extremists, without being called a traitor to the case.
Pretty much like you shout traiter when you see moderates like us put forward our ideas.
I’ve got news for you effR: using your brain is not considered cheating. At least not in our circle.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
…
I’d say the majority of muslims hate us and want us dead, not 0.01%. I’d say it’s closer to 70%.
… [/quote]
Yes you say it. And you’re a fool for saying it.
Good point. Simultaneously the moderates, who see without resorting to moral absolutes are marginalised, while extremely violent, nationalistic attitudes are put forward as rational, even normal.
This is not healthy, society thrives upon pluralism. Society would be extinct if we had not risen above the notion that war is the answer to conflict. Sorry if that’s hippy, but it’s true.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Coolexec has nailed it! If you fart at a muslim, the community comes out in protest. If a Christian or non-Muslim gets their head sawed off, its “Oh, we’d like to protest but we’re afraid…” They only protest something Christians do, because they know Christians are tolerant and will let them have their demonstration. Try doing the same in some bastion of Satan, like Iran.
Headhunter[/quote]
Trust me Headhunter. No one would accuse you of being tolerant.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
coolexec wrote:
A lot.
I’m not a Muslim, so I won’t answer your question. I’ve got a question for you though.
(1) When did you demonstrate against the human rights violations in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo?
What’s that? You don’t think you’re responsible for that?
Or worse perhaps, you thought they had it coming.
Well, that’s rather funny considering you hold every Muslim reponsible for everything any Muslim ever did.
Talk about double standard eh.
I seem to recall quite a bit of outrage in this country about that because we care about people, even the ones who hate us. I have never spoken to one person or heard any one person speak about abu garib postitivly. Most people were outraged, you choose not to see it because you hate this country but live happily under its protection.
In Iran, Cuba, North Korea, if you spoke this way about them in thier borders, you be in prison fighting ovet the cockroaches to eat.
(2) Who do you considere Palestinian terrorists? Where did you learn that only one of them is Christian?
I concider them all terrorits. The elected hamas by a wide margin which makes them cuplable in all of hamas’s violence and blood. Still I don’t want to kill them all, I just want to vaporize hamas into dust, which is a little better then they deserve.
(3) What are you saying Coolexec? The US has a number of Muslim countries they consider to be allies. None of them is free? Why is that? Perhaps the US (and the West in general) is more concerned with promoting easy access to the oil instead of promoting freedom and democracy in the area.
The only thing good in the middle east is the oil. We should not be concerned with the form of government so long as it is freindly to us. This is what I concider the big mistake of this administrtion, thinking they could change the middle east with democracy. These people want jihad so they can die in it and get corked in the ass by 72 male virgins. So if not us, they pick a fight with somebody.
(4) Christians in the name Christ, freedom and pure greed did their fair share of killing. You seem to forget that.
They did kick the muslims ass out of Europe in the mean time. So something good came of it.
(5) Christians and Jews have lived in peace in Islamic countries for centuries. Only after WWII did we see a change in attitude. Let’s not forget it was the Christian Germans that murdered millions of Jews.
BULLSHIT. Christians and Jews were all ways at risk and in the midst of great tension in those countries. The remained Christians and Jews despite the risk.
A rather big part of Christianity seems to be stuck in the dark ages also.
Like Marx said: religion is opium for the people.
Every religion has it’s fanatics, comiting attrocities in the name of their deity.
Why do you single out the Muslims Coolexec? Hmmm?
Because no other religion or even agnostics and athiests think its a great idea to kill innocent people to get thier point across. Nobody else declares wars on countries and whine like pussies when those countries retaliate. Nobody else kills thier own to foward thier aganda. Nobody else promotes the murder of “Zionists” like we advertise McDonalds. Nobody else parties in the streets when innocent civilians are killed by thier wacked mentality. Nobody else recruits thier kids to do thier dirty work. Not even the USSR, under Stalin did such things.
Dude you think you are smart. You think you are being open minded and everybody else is close minded. You think you have concidered things that nobody else has, but you are wrong. I suggest you take a trip abroad and see what it is like. Or go talk to a soldier who has been there maybe you would get a clearer picture. But in the end you will perhaps think you are smarter than all the rest, even those who have experienced the evil first hand.
[/quote]
your an idiot, please kill yourself. or at least don’t breed.
Juninho and dannyrat, you need to analyse the Muslim community?s game plan in the UK. You need to understand it. Then you need to be afraid. Very afraid.
Let me explain it to you:
At the outset, you need to understand that the Islamists’ objective is to destroy the West and bring it forcibly into the Islamic world - and to commit violence to that end even while their overall goal remains out of reach. That effort goes under the general rubric of jihad. This is a seminal objective of Islam.
Jihad (in Arabic, “struggle”) is a central duty of every Muslim. Modern Muslim theologians have spoken of many things as jihads: the struggle within the soul, defending the faith from critics, supporting its growth and defense financially, even migrating to non-Muslim lands for the purpose of spreading Islam. But violent jihad is a constant of Islamic history. Many passages of the Koran and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad are used by jihad warriors today to justify their actions and gain new recruits. No major Muslim group has ever repudiated the doctrines of armed jihad. The theology of jihad, which denies unbelievers equality of human rights and dignity, is available today for anyone with the will and means to bring it to life.
The strategy: On the one hand you have the so-called ‘extremist’ jihad Muslims plotting to cause as much terror and mayhem as possible, and on the other hand you have the so-called ‘moderate’ jihad Muslims who use the actions of the former to progress the Islamification of Britain through politics.
So how can respectable members of the Muslim community including MPs be working to the same goals as a Muslim terrorist?
The key to this is in how they responded to the uncovering of the recent attempt by Islamic militants to blow up 10 planes travelling to America. Instead of an open letter of outright condemnation of the plot without reservations, they use British foreign policy as a kind of justification with a veiled threat implied. The open letter suggests that British foreign policy is responsible for the acts of terrorists and that if the UK government changes its ways they will change theirs. The letter was rightly put down by parliamentarians and newspapers (even the Guardian) alike.
Secondly, and even more importantly, was the behind closed doors meeting between the government and the ‘respected’ Muslim leaders. During this meeting a number of suggestions were made by both sides to ease the tension between the Muslim community and ordinary British citizens.
Dr Syed Aziz Pasha, of the Union of Muslim Organizations of UK and Ireland, said: “We are willing to cooperate but there should be a partnership. They should understand our problems then we will understand their problems.”
They also asked for the recognition of holidays for Muslim festivals, which is fairly normal, even though it would be strange for a school in a non-Muslim area to be celebrating Eid or Mohammed’s birthday. Muslims make up less than 3% of the population of Britain.
But the ‘moderate’ community leaders actually went a lot further than that. They also asked for the implementation of Sharia law applying to Muslims in cases of marriage, divorce and other areas not covered by criminal law. Fuck the Magna Carta - we want the Sharia!
Clearly this is the embodiment of the extremist and moderate jihadist at work in a classic ‘good cop, bad cop’ routine. The Muslim with the bomb creates the panic and the Muslim with a peerage, knighthood or doctorate uses it to accomplish the aims that his brother, the terrorist, alone cannot accomplish.
It becomes clearer still if you dissect what they are saying. They claim that the Muslim community is willing to cooperate, but only in a partnership. What is this proposed partnership? They are saying the Muslim community is willing to cooperate if they get what they want at the moment. If they don’t get what they want the ‘radicals’ will sew mayhem and murder. In no way are they saying they want a Muslim community that is integrated into society like any other minority group. How could you want to integrate if you want separate laws, to live in closed communities and want the entire nation to take time off to celebrate your holidays?
Muslims want to live the Islamic life in all its dubious glories, but they wish to live it in the UK instead of in a country that has no welfare state or education opportunities.
Islam has embraced armed military expansion for religious purposes since its earliest decades. In contrast, Christianity struggled in its divided attitudes toward military force and state power for its first 300 years. No “theology of Crusade” existed in Western Christian thought until the 11th century. In fact, the Christian Byzantine Empire had already been resisting Muslim expansion in the East for 400 years before Pope Urban II called the First Crusade ? as a defensive response to generations of armed jihad.
Much of the modern Middle East was once heavily Christian. Muslim armies changed that by imposing Islamic rule. Surviving Christian communities have endured centuries of marginalization, discrimination, violence, slavery and outright persecution ? not always and not everywhere; but as a constant, recurring and central theme of Muslim domination.
That same Christian suffering continues down to the present. In the early years of the 20th century, the Muslim Ottoman Empire murdered more than 1 million Armenian Christians for ethnic, economic, but also religious reasons. Many Turks and other Muslims continue to deny that massive crime even today. Coptic Christians in Egypt ? who, even after 13 centuries of Muslim prejudice and harassment, cling to the faith ? continue to experience systematic discrimination and violence at the hands of Islamic militants.
Harassment and violence against Christians continue in many places throughout the Islamic world, from Bangladesh, Iran, Sudan (Muslim driven genocide currently in Darfur), Pakistan and Iraq, to Nigeria, Somalia, Indonesia and even Muslim-dominated areas of the heavily Catholic Philippines. In Saudi Arabia, all public expressions of Christian faith are forbidden. The on-going Christian flight from Lebanon has helped to transform it, in just half a century, from a majority Christian Arab nation to a majority Muslim population.
These are facts. The Muslim-Christian conflict is a very long one, rooted in deep religious differences, and Muslims have their own long list of real and perceived grievances. But especially in an era of religiously inspired terrorism and war in the Middle East, peace is not served by ignoring, subverting or rewriting history, but rather by facing it humbly as it really happened and healing its wounds.
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
coolexec wrote:
A lot.
I’m not a Muslim, so I won’t answer your question. I’ve got a question for you though.
(1) When did you demonstrate against the human rights violations in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo?
What’s that? You don’t think you’re responsible for that?
Or worse perhaps, you thought they had it coming.
Well, that’s rather funny considering you hold every Muslim reponsible for everything any Muslim ever did.
Talk about double standard eh.
(2) Who do you considere Palestinian terrorists? Where did you learn that only one of them is Christian?
(3) What are you saying Coolexec? The US has a number of Muslim countries they consider to be allies. None of them is free? Why is that? Perhaps the US (and the West in general) is more concerned with promoting easy access to the oil instead of promoting freedom and democracy in the area.
(4) Christians in the name Christ, freedom and pure greed did their fair share of killing. You seem to forget that.
(5) Christians and Jews have lived in peace in Islamic countries for centuries. Only after WWII did we see a change in attitude. Let’s not forget it was the Christian Germans that murdered millions of Jews.
A rather big part of Christianity seems to be stuck in the dark ages also.
Like Marx said: religion is opium for the people.
Every religion has it’s fanatics, comiting attrocities in the name of their deity.
Why do you single out the Muslims Coolexec? Hmmm?[/quote]
How does that answer the question dumbass? No where did he say these things haven’t happened before by others. No one has forgotten any of those other things you mentioned. But you know what? It doesn’t answer the Muslim question does it? Stick to the topic or start another thread. It’s like someone asked a question about swiss cheese and now your all up in arms because, hey has he forgotten about cheddar and brie and…
[quote]juninho wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Z-Man wrote:
I only have one question…
What is it like to be an ignorant, racist bigot that wants to group all Muslims via the actions of 0.01% of people in that religion?
The Holocaust, Rwandan Genocide, Bosnian Genocide and other atrocities are started with the support of, and succeed because of people like you. You are no different than a palestinian that classifies all israeli’s as the Enemy or the WTC hijackers, who want to kill all Americans. You are unable (too stupid) to distinguish between those that are not extreme and those that are. It is just far simpler for you to calssify every Muslim in the same fold and justify a mass extermination. A bit like someone else we know of named Bin Laden.
And you didn’t even make these questions up yourself, they have been posted time and time again, and answered time and time again.
Ooops you forgot the Conglees genocide and the Sudanees genocide. But I guess those are ok because they were perpetrated by islamic-facists. Who want all non-muslims dead.
I’d say the majority of muslims hate us and want us dead, not 0.01%. I’d say it’s closer to 70%. 0.01% are actively declaring war at any given time. If they aren’t doing it, they support those who are. I have tried to read the hearts and thoughts of muslims using resources like al-jazeera and some jordanian trash mags, but guess what. They hate us and want us dead. 9/11 was the CIA so we could decalre war on islam, 3/11 spain was also done by the west as was the 7/7 attacks in Engalnd. The U.S and isreal cause the tsunami to kill muslims. This is what they are reporting over there as fact.
Here is what I want to find. A single muslim who does not hate jews. That’s what I want to see. Sure not all muslims want to do away with the west, but they definaltely all hate jews. Even “our friends” like the UE when they stopped importing Coca-Cola becuase the president of coke at the time was a jew.
hang on, you can’t simply pluck made up %'s out of the air and declare that it means anything.
OK, I’ll play too: The Jews have brought 65.326% of Muslim hatred on themselves via the actions of Israel. Maybe even 66%. It means fuck all but I guess at first glance it makes it look like I have put some thought into my post.[/quote]
Kind of like your first post it seems.
[quote]juninho wrote:
coolexec wrote:
juninho wrote:
coolexec wrote:
Juninho, I do not know precisely you live although, it would appear from your postings, that they grow something really good there, and you smoke a lot of it.
I do know that you live somewhere in the UK.
Let me try to disabuse you of the notion that there are “Muslim leaders and groups, who denounce any act of killing as being un-Islamic.”
A few days ago your security services uncovered a conspiracy to bomb trans-Atlantic airliners which would have seen as many as 10 United States-bound planes (and their passengers and crews plus the US citizens living underneath the points of detonation) being destroyed by British-born Islamic terrorists.
How did your “local Muslim leaders and groups” react? They claimed that Britain’s foreign policy is responsible for the terror alert. Members of Britain’s Muslim religious, social and political organisations made their opinions known in a letter, addressed to the prime minister signed by MPs Sadiq Khan, Shahid Malik and Mohammed Sarwar, peers Lord Patel of Blackburn, Lord Ahmen of Rotherham and Baroness Uddin and 38 groups including the Muslim Association of Britain, the British Muslim Forum, the Muslim Council of Britain and the Muslim Parliament of Great Britain. It calls for an urgent revision of UK foreign policy.
It calls the Iraqi war a “debacle” and says that the failure to end attacks on civilians in the Middle East, such as the current fighting in Lebanon, is making the UK a threat to extremists.
Understandably their collective opinions on the link between terrorism and foreign policy were described as facile by the government. Juninho, do you seriously believe that a citizen?s loathing of his government’s foreign policy gives him the right to strap explosives to himself and go out and murder innocent people? Do you believe that “extremists” should be appeased in order to avert the potential threat they pose? Do you recall Neville Chamberlain?
So, do your “Muslim leaders and groups denounce any act of killing as being un-Islamic”? Do they publicly condemn the jihadists’ train bombings in Mumbai? In Madrid? Do they speak out against the rockets falling on Haifa? Do they criticise the Islamic Courts in Somalia?
No, they rather attempt to justify the jihadists and lay the blame on policies they personally or politically don’t like.
Actually, the letter that was submitted to the government by prominent Muslim leaders started with the line;
“Prime Minister, as British Muslims we urge you to do more to fight against all those who target civilians with violence, whenever and wherever that happens.”
Had you read the content of this letter or did you just choose to ommit the parts which did not tally with your view?
And they are perfectly justified in arguing a cause/effect relationship between British foreign policy and terrorism. The 7/7 bombers explicitly blamed this for their actions. What more evidence do you need? This in no way amounts to a declaration of support for the terrorists.
[/quote]
Nor does it excuse the other 99.9% or whatever the figure might be of being guilty as charged in the orginal post.
It could also be because they are in Britain and feel comfortable enough in that society to say such things. Sadly, it wouldn’t suprise me if they end up dead. AYIYIYIYIYIYIYIYIYYI!
[quote]Z-Man wrote:
What you guys are unable to understand is that guys like coolexec and company want to group the entire Muslim world, into one big bundle for easy, guiltless extermination. There is no other reason for posting these types of things over and over again. Bin Laden, Hitler and co did the same thing. You label a group, marginalize it and then try to kill them all. What you are trying to do is label all Muslims as Islamo-facists to make this easier on yourselves.
And yes, the Sudanese are complete assholes for perpetrating the genocid on Christians and others, so is the Saudi government for not allowing any opposition to their government. So Was Saddam Hussein for Killing thousands of his own people. But over 40,000 Iraqi’s dead doesn’t bother you guys at all. It is not the fault of the people for the governments that have been thrust upon them after WW1 and 19th century colonialism are mostly dictatorial. Most of these were friendly to the west, barring those countries that have had a revolution of some sort.
If any of you were to attent Friday sermons, you’d hear the weekly condemnation of terrorism and taking of innocent lives, and the responsibility towards peace, yet over and over we get these racists come out and say that most Muslims are terrorsts. I’m hearing statistics of 70%, which is amazing, that would mean you have over 700 million terrorsts running around blowing shit up. How absolutely stupid can you be to believe that stuff?
If you preach this stuff against Israel, it’s Anti-Semitic. If you preach this against Muslims, it’s patriotism.[/quote]
Dude, would you Please, Drink the Kool-Aid, ask your Muslim friends to stop trying to kill the rest of the Goddamned,free earth, and you can even say I asked real nice
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
coolexec wrote:
A lot.
I’m not a Muslim, so I won’t answer your question. I’ve got a question for you though.
(1) When did you demonstrate against the human rights violations in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo?
What’s that? You don’t think you’re responsible for that?
Or worse perhaps, you thought they had it coming.
Well, that’s rather funny considering you hold every Muslim reponsible for everything any Muslim ever did.
Talk about double standard eh.
(2) Who do you considere Palestinian terrorists? Where did you learn that only one of them is Christian?
(3) What are you saying Coolexec? The US has a number of Muslim countries they consider to be allies. None of them is free? Why is that? Perhaps the US (and the West in general) is more concerned with promoting easy access to the oil instead of promoting freedom and democracy in the area.
(4) Christians in the name Christ, freedom and pure greed did their fair share of killing. You seem to forget that.
(5) Christians and Jews have lived in peace in Islamic countries for centuries. Only after WWII did we see a change in attitude. Let’s not forget it was the Christian Germans that murdered millions of Jews.
A rather big part of Christianity seems to be stuck in the dark ages also.
Like Marx said: religion is opium for the people.
Every religion has it’s fanatics, comiting attrocities in the name of their deity.
Why do you single out the Muslims Coolexec? Hmmm?[/quote]
Pwned.
If you actually look up the definition of facism you will find that the current american administration is much closer to fascism than any islamic nation or organization. Fascism is not a good word to describe radical islam.