I have a quick question. I want to pulse amino’s as prescribed about 45min prior to my workout but what can i mix the 40 gram BCAA with to make the taste bearable without using to much simple cabs or sugars that will spike my insulin level to early.
[quote]ParagonA wrote:
In a nutshell:
Actually, there are (at least) two diffrent mechanisms of amino acid absorption.
Firstly, there are actual amino acid transporters, which shuttle free form aminos into the blood stream. Protein digestion means breaking the long chains of amino acids into smaller pieces, i.e. single aa, di- and tri-peptides (which is hydrolization in vivo!). Every piece longer than that will pass the small intestine unabsorbed and will be metabolised further down the gastrointestinal tract by bacteria (which produces nice little molecules that make your farts stink…).
There are also peptite-tansporters in the mucosa of the small intestine. That is the second pathway of amino acid absorbtion (in peptide form).
So, if you measure, e.g., labeled glycine in the bloodstream after drinking a solution of free form glycine, you can measure a concentration of X after a given time.
If you drink a solution of di-peptides glycine-glycine, you’ll measure another concentration after the same time.
Now you can combine the two and consume both the free form and the di-peptide at the same time. The concentration you’ll measure after the same time as in the two experiments above will be higher than in both of the previous set-ups.
Probably, the “proteins” which lead to the highest amino acid concentrations in the blood after the shortest possible time are pre-digested (i.e. partially hydrolized) proteins. These contain free form amino acids, di- as well as tri-peptides.
Why phCY (partially hydrolized Casein) is “faster” than say phWy (partially hydrolized Whey) is not entirely clear.
Probalby, some di- and tri-peptides are absorbed faster into the blood stream than others. Some combinations of amino acids in di- and tri-peptides may not be absorbed at all (with 20 amino acids, there are 400 diffrent di-peptides). Not all combinations have been used in studies.
Maybe phCY contains a favorable combination of peptides (good aa-combinations that can be shuttled). Further studies on the exact profile of phCY are necessary to answer this question.
Make no mistake, COMPLETELY predigested casein (i.e. all amino acids are available in free form) does not lead to faster absorption (in terms of concentration of labeled amino acids in the blood stream than an amino acid solution with the same profile.
[/quote]
Another interesting and probably relevant fact is that it seems that, beyond questions of amounts and rates of amino acids delivered, hormonal response differs between administration of free-form amino acids and mixtures of di- and tri-peptides.
I can’t give the reference on it, as it’s something I read probably more than 10 years ago and in this case I don’t recall the source, but growth factors produced by the liver – sorry, I can’t specify at this time; if I had to guess I wouldt think IGF-1 but the specific memory is simply of “growth factors” – was found much greater with administration of di- and tripeptides vs free-form amino acids.
Paragon, as you might happen to know this, is it known whether amino acids are necessarily always or extremely predominantly circulated in the free form, or may di- and tripeptides circulate as such? While this may not be such a case, it is surprising sometimes what things are not known about what is normally present in the blood. As examples, until we had research done on it, it apparently was unknown to science or at least exceedingly little known that blood levels of 4-AD in the adult male are approximately as high as those of testosterone; and while it is the case that for the most part fructose is absorbed and metabolized by the liver, how little information one will find on blood fructose levels, which are not necessarily always zero. (Just as an odd example.)
Hey CT, is it worthwhile to ‘pulse’ before your pre-bed meal if your last meal was over 3 hours before?
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Another interesting and probably relevant fact is that it seems that, beyond questions of amounts and rates of amino acids delivered, hormonal response differs between administration of free-form amino acids and mixtures of di- and tri-peptides.
I can’t give the reference on it, as it’s something I read probably more than 10 years ago and in this case I don’t recall the source, but growth factors produced by the liver – sorry, I can’t specify at this time; if I had to guess I wouldt think IGF-1 but the specific memory is simply of “growth factors” – was found much greater with administration of di- and tripeptides vs free-form amino acids.
Paragon, as you might happen to know this, is it known whether amino acids are necessarily always or extremely predominantly circulated in the free form, or may di- and tripeptides circulate as such? While this may not be such a case, it is surprising sometimes what things are not known about what is normally present in the blood. As examples, until we had research done on it, it apparently was unknown to science or at least exceedingly little known that blood levels of 4-AD in the adult male are approximately as high as those of testosterone; and while it is the case that for the most part fructose is absorbed and metabolized by the liver, how little information one will find on blood fructose levels, which are not necessarily always zero. (Just as an odd example.)[/quote]
Hi Bill
I remember several studies on what you mentioned in the first paragraph. The funny thing is, in some cases there were no differences found in terms of hormonal response (also other things were investigated, such as antioxidative capacity, release of some blood enzymes, etc.) between administration of free-form amino acids (fAA) and di-/tri-peptides (DP/TP).
For example with ALA-GLN, everthing looked just the same after feeding with fAA and DP, respectively.
With other amino acid pairings, e.g. IGF-1 response was much higher with the peptides compared to the free form aminos. Same thing for what reseachers called “overall anabolic response” (markers of increased protein synthesis, etc.). This was the case for GLY-TYR, for example.
This could simply be the case because some of the DP and TP could directly act as substrates for certain blood enzymes, enzymes or receptors located on cell surfaces (e.g. various dipeptyl peptidases).
This brings me to your question about DP and TP in the blood. As a matter of fact, there are TP and DP circulating in the blood. DP concentrations in the blood can be pretty high. Some of them have important physiological functions, such as inhibiting blood coagulation.
DP and TP can then be hydrolized directely in the blood or shuttled into diffrent other cell types to get hydrolized there (liver, lung, kidney or skeletal muscle cells).
They may directly trigger some intra-cellular cascades by binding to receptors located on cell surfaces).
There is a small Swiss biotech company that investigates the effects of such specific short peptides and they actually try to use them as specific triggers in the treatment of diffrent illnesses. I talked to those guys several years back. Can’t remember everything, unfortunately.
[quote]gsxtacy wrote:
Davinci.v2 wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Davinci.v2 wrote:
zraw wrote:
Davinci.v2 wrote:
Shamandalie wrote:
What are the best times to pulse if one always works out first thing in the morning so day starts with peri-workout protocol?
Mine does. Personally I wake up at 5am, eat 1 finibar. 6am I have 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel, 6:15am 2 scoops Surge Recovery, 6:30am I lift and sip on 2 scoops of casein hydrolysate, then I pulse again 1.5 hours after my workout has ended…usually with 2 scoops whey isolate with 5 grams leucine and a Finibar to fill me up.
Why arent u pulsing with casein hydro?
I have too much leucine and whey isolate (always buy in 15 pound bulk) left over to not finish it off.
Yeah, but it wont work…
“I wake up at 5am, eat 1 FINiBAR. 6am I have 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel, 6:15am 2 scoops Surge Recovery, 6:30am I lift and sip on 2 scoops of casein hydrolysate, then I pulse again 1.5 hours after my workout has ended…usually with 2 scoops whey isolate with 5 grams leucine and a FINiBAR to fill me up.”
Can you elaborate as to which part of the above protocol I put in quotes needs improvement? Are you referring to the pulse using whey isolate in that you feel it (whey isolate) is too slow to utilize a pulse with?
he is referring to the pulsing with the whey isolate[/quote]
yeah, I remember that CT has stated that for the purpose of pulsing one should use Casein Hydrolysate (peptopro or anaconda) and MAYBE Whey Hydrolysate (may not be fast enough). Whey Iso doesn’t quite cut it
[quote]ParagonA wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Another interesting and probably relevant fact is that it seems that, beyond questions of amounts and rates of amino acids delivered, hormonal response differs between administration of free-form amino acids and mixtures of di- and tri-peptides.
I can’t give the reference on it, as it’s something I read probably more than 10 years ago and in this case I don’t recall the source, but growth factors produced by the liver – sorry, I can’t specify at this time; if I had to guess I wouldt think IGF-1 but the specific memory is simply of “growth factors” – was found much greater with administration of di- and tripeptides vs free-form amino acids.
Paragon, as you might happen to know this, is it known whether amino acids are necessarily always or extremely predominantly circulated in the free form, or may di- and tripeptides circulate as such? While this may not be such a case, it is surprising sometimes what things are not known about what is normally present in the blood. As examples, until we had research done on it, it apparently was unknown to science or at least exceedingly little known that blood levels of 4-AD in the adult male are approximately as high as those of testosterone; and while it is the case that for the most part fructose is absorbed and metabolized by the liver, how little information one will find on blood fructose levels, which are not necessarily always zero. (Just as an odd example.)
Hi Bill
I remember several studies on what you mentioned in the first paragraph. The funny thing is, in some cases there were no differences found in terms of hormonal response (also other things were investigated, such as antioxidative capacity, release of some blood enzymes, etc.) between administration of free-form amino acids (fAA) and di-/tri-peptides (DP/TP).
For example with ALA-GLN, everthing looked just the same after feeding with fAA and DP, respectively.
With other amino acid pairings, e.g. IGF-1 response was much higher with the peptides compared to the free form aminos. Same thing for what reseachers called “overall anabolic response” (markers of increased protein synthesis, etc.). This was the case for GLY-TYR, for example.
This could simply be the case because some of the DP and TP could directly act as substrates for certain blood enzymes, enzymes or receptors located on cell surfaces (e.g. various dipeptyl peptidases).
This brings me to your question about DP and TP in the blood. As a matter of fact, there are TP and DP circulating in the blood. DP concentrations in the blood can be pretty high. Some of them have important physiological functions, such as inhibiting blood coagulation.
DP and TP can then be hydrolized directely in the blood or shuttled into diffrent other cell types to get hydrolized there (liver, lung, kidney or skeletal muscle cells).
They may directly trigger some intra-cellular cascades by binding to receptors located on cell surfaces).
There is a small Swiss biotech company that investigates the effects of such specific short peptides and they actually try to use them as specific triggers in the treatment of diffrent illnesses. I talked to those guys several years back. Can’t remember everything, unfortunately.
[/quote]
Thanks, Paragon! 
[quote]juverulez wrote:
gsxtacy wrote:
Davinci.v2 wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Davinci.v2 wrote:
zraw wrote:
Davinci.v2 wrote:
Shamandalie wrote:
What are the best times to pulse if one always works out first thing in the morning so day starts with peri-workout protocol?
Mine does. Personally I wake up at 5am, eat 1 finibar. 6am I have 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel, 6:15am 2 scoops Surge Recovery, 6:30am I lift and sip on 2 scoops of casein hydrolysate, then I pulse again 1.5 hours after my workout has ended…usually with 2 scoops whey isolate with 5 grams leucine and a Finibar to fill me up.
Why arent u pulsing with casein hydro?
I have too much leucine and whey isolate (always buy in 15 pound bulk) left over to not finish it off.
Yeah, but it wont work…
“I wake up at 5am, eat 1 FINiBAR. 6am I have 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel, 6:15am 2 scoops Surge Recovery, 6:30am I lift and sip on 2 scoops of casein hydrolysate, then I pulse again 1.5 hours after my workout has ended…usually with 2 scoops whey isolate with 5 grams leucine and a FINiBAR to fill me up.”
Can you elaborate as to which part of the above protocol I put in quotes needs improvement? Are you referring to the pulse using whey isolate in that you feel it (whey isolate) is too slow to utilize a pulse with?
he is referring to the pulsing with the whey isolate
yeah, I remember that CT has stated that for the purpose of pulsing one should use Casein Hydrolysate (peptopro or anaconda) and MAYBE Whey Hydrolysate (may not be fast enough). Whey Iso doesn’t quite cut it [/quote]
Actually CT has stated that Whey has been shown to digest fast enough to lead to hyperaminoacidemia.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
deshawn wrote:
Hello:
Thib, Thanks for all your valuable info. One question though I am on a limmited budget and was wondering what would be the best approach with just bcaa’s, leucine and whey isolate protein. Thanks for all your help.
0.2g of BCAAs per pound 45 minutes before workout
5-7g leucine 20 minutes before workout
25g whey isolate and 20-30g of a fast-absorbed carb 10 minutes before workout
25g whey isolate and 5-7g of leucine during the workout (finishing pretty much with the end of the workout)
50g whey 15 minutes after the workout
5-7g leucine 80 minutes after the workout
50g whey 90 minutes after the workout[/quote]
CT, I tried this approach during my current diet which is VLC/keto. Like an idiot I eliminated the 20-30 fast absorption carb 10 minutes before the workout and nearly blacked out from low blood sugar. I read somewhere you posted that leucine ellicits a strong insulin response…you weren’t BSing. Is there any modification you recommend if I’m not going to use carbs or is it pointless to even utilize this approach without carbs?
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
juverulez wrote:
gsxtacy wrote:
Davinci.v2 wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Davinci.v2 wrote:
zraw wrote:
Davinci.v2 wrote:
Shamandalie wrote:
What are the best times to pulse if one always works out first thing in the morning so day starts with peri-workout protocol?
Mine does. Personally I wake up at 5am, eat 1 finibar. 6am I have 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel, 6:15am 2 scoops Surge Recovery, 6:30am I lift and sip on 2 scoops of casein hydrolysate, then I pulse again 1.5 hours after my workout has ended…usually with 2 scoops whey isolate with 5 grams leucine and a Finibar to fill me up.
Why arent u pulsing with casein hydro?
I have too much leucine and whey isolate (always buy in 15 pound bulk) left over to not finish it off.
Yeah, but it wont work…
“I wake up at 5am, eat 1 FINiBAR. 6am I have 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel, 6:15am 2 scoops Surge Recovery, 6:30am I lift and sip on 2 scoops of casein hydrolysate, then I pulse again 1.5 hours after my workout has ended…usually with 2 scoops whey isolate with 5 grams leucine and a FINiBAR to fill me up.”
Can you elaborate as to which part of the above protocol I put in quotes needs improvement? Are you referring to the pulse using whey isolate in that you feel it (whey isolate) is too slow to utilize a pulse with?
he is referring to the pulsing with the whey isolate
yeah, I remember that CT has stated that for the purpose of pulsing one should use Casein Hydrolysate (peptopro or anaconda) and MAYBE Whey Hydrolysate (may not be fast enough). Whey Iso doesn’t quite cut it
Actually CT has stated that Whey has been shown to digest fast enough to lead to hyperaminoacidemia.[/quote]
You are taking the mick, aren’t you?
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Marlind wrote:
O God…I’d love to try the pulse.But living in Europe and especially in a country where its difficult to find whey protein let alone FINiBARs and Workout Fuel.I think I might never have a taste of The pulse 
.Unless CT would advise a maybe-not-so-good “food” type of Pulse? 
No food is absorbed fast enough to cause a pulsing effect. In fact no protein except casein hydrolysate and maybe whey hydrolysate is absorbed fast enough for it to work.[/quote]
The only CH I’m able to find online is from chemical companies, it being acid hydrolized. Is this legit and safe to consume?
[quote]TheBlade wrote:
The only CH I’m able to find online is from chemical companies, it being acid hydrolized. Is this legit and safe to consume?[/quote]
I don’t know which one you are talking about, but the only CH I know of is PeptoPro, which is what a lot of people on here are taking. I’m just gonna wait for Biotest’s CH, cause I likes me Kool-aid (not puke, apparently).
[quote]juverulez wrote:
BulletproofTiger wrote:
juverulez wrote:
gsxtacy wrote:
Davinci.v2 wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Davinci.v2 wrote:
zraw wrote:
Davinci.v2 wrote:
Shamandalie wrote:
What are the best times to pulse if one always works out first thing in the morning so day starts with peri-workout protocol?
Mine does. Personally I wake up at 5am, eat 1 finibar. 6am I have 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel, 6:15am 2 scoops Surge Recovery, 6:30am I lift and sip on 2 scoops of casein hydrolysate, then I pulse again 1.5 hours after my workout has ended…usually with 2 scoops whey isolate with 5 grams leucine and a Finibar to fill me up.
Why arent u pulsing with casein hydro?
I have too much leucine and whey isolate (always buy in 15 pound bulk) left over to not finish it off.
Yeah, but it wont work…
“I wake up at 5am, eat 1 FINiBAR. 6am I have 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel, 6:15am 2 scoops Surge Recovery, 6:30am I lift and sip on 2 scoops of casein hydrolysate, then I pulse again 1.5 hours after my workout has ended…usually with 2 scoops whey isolate with 5 grams leucine and a FINiBAR to fill me up.”
Can you elaborate as to which part of the above protocol I put in quotes needs improvement? Are you referring to the pulse using whey isolate in that you feel it (whey isolate) is too slow to utilize a pulse with?
he is referring to the pulsing with the whey isolate
yeah, I remember that CT has stated that for the purpose of pulsing one should use Casein Hydrolysate (peptopro or anaconda) and MAYBE Whey Hydrolysate (may not be fast enough). Whey Iso doesn’t quite cut it
Actually CT has stated that Whey has been shown to digest fast enough to lead to hyperaminoacidemia.
You are taking the mick, aren’t you?
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Marlind wrote:
O God…I’d love to try the pulse.But living in Europe and especially in a country where its difficult to find whey protein let alone FINiBARs and Workout Fuel.I think I might never have a taste of The pulse
.Unless CT would advise a maybe-not-so-good “food” type of Pulse?
No food is absorbed fast enough to cause a pulsing effect. In fact no protein except casein hydrolysate and maybe whey hydrolysate is absorbed fast enough for it to work.
[/quote]
Thanks for posting that. But this is why i said what I did:
[quote]CrewPierce wrote: stuff
to which Christian Thibaudeau replied:
‘Technically’ any fast protein can be used for the daily pulses. Whey has been shown to be fast enough to lead to hyperaminoacidemia. [/quote]
To me it looks like it’s really a matter of how effective you want the pulsing protocol to be.
For those keeping score:
BulletproofTiger 1
juverulez 0
My guess is that he’s referring to whey hydrolyslate since there’s a big difference between a high-grade WPH and WPI or WPC.
what about gold standard %100 Whey. It has “Hydro-Whey” but does anyone know how much is isolate and how much is hydrolyzed?
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
TheBlade wrote:
The only CH I’m able to find online is from chemical companies, it being acid hydrolized. Is this legit and safe to consume?
I don’t know which one you are talking about, but the only CH I know of is PeptoPro, which is what a lot of people on here are taking. I’m just gonna wait for Biotest’s CH, cause I likes me Kool-aid (not puke, apparently).[/quote]
Oh I see it. Thanks. Google Shopping apparently doesn’t always find everything
[quote]MAF14 wrote:
what about gold standard %100 Whey. It has “Hydro-Whey” but does anyone know how much is isolate and how much is hydrolyzed? [/quote]
If it doesn’t specify, it likely has very little WPH. Probably just enough to legally claim that it’s in there.
[quote]HK24719 wrote:
MAF14 wrote:
what about gold standard %100 Whey. It has “Hydro-Whey” but does anyone know how much is isolate and how much is hydrolyzed?
If it doesn’t specify, it likely has very little WPH. Probably just enough to legally claim that it’s in there.[/quote]
Yep, hydrolysed proteins are much more expensive. So companies will put just a little WPH so that they can claim on the label that it is hydrolysed protein.
Look at the ingredient list. Pure whey hydrolysate will not have any other protein listed. And keep in mind that the ingredients on the lists are in order of quantity in the product.
[quote]TheBlade wrote:
PB Andy wrote:
TheBlade wrote:
The only CH I’m able to find online is from chemical companies, it being acid hydrolized. Is this legit and safe to consume?
I don’t know which one you are talking about, but the only CH I know of is PeptoPro, which is what a lot of people on here are taking. I’m just gonna wait for Biotest’s CH, cause I likes me Kool-aid (not puke, apparently).
Oh I see it. Thanks. Google Shopping apparently doesn’t always find everything[/quote]
Won’t be long… it will be here soon (I have even seen the labels). It is a bit more than simply casein hydrolysate, albeit that is the only protein in the product and each scoop provides around 22g of it.
I personally mix 6 scoops of it in a big jug and drink it throughout the day (pulsing).
It really tastes like full sugar fruit juice, and looks like it too. My wife even drank it instead of crystal light by mistake.
It’s also crystal clear.
Hey Coach,
What does your current pulsing method look like? Has it evolved since:
eg
05:45 - pulse with 12g HC
06:00 - White meat meal/low fat
Periworkout protocol
10:00 - pulse
10:30 - white meat meal/low fat
12:45 - pulse
13:00 - white meat meal
16:00 - pulse
16:15 - red meat meal/med fats
21:00 - Miscellar casein/med fats
TOTAL - 1-1.25g/lb protein(not including peri workout nutrition, which I assume increases when training twice a day?)
Thanks,
GJ
Having read through the whole thread and gained some excellent information, I’m putting together a shopping list. Is it right that at the most basic level using the budget protocol outlined at the beginning of the thread and pulsing using CH, I basically need to bulk buy CH (peptopro for now, Biotest when it appears) with the addition of dextrose and leucine for para workout, to be structured as outlined in the earlier posts?
EDIT: The more I read about CHY the more I am hearing about its insulin spiking properties. Does this mean that when using Biotest’s CHY (when its released) peri workout carbs will not be needed?