Questions About Protein/Amino Pulsing

Training
241

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Anaconda IS overkill for pulsing simply because there is a ton of stuff in there that is not needed for that purpose. It works, and works well for pulsing, but it is too costly for that purpose.

I’ve used it for that purpose because there is no CH product out there that satisfies me. However that will change shortly.[/quote]

i apologize ahead of time if i’m again asking something that has already been answered… but between the 3 threads covering this information, this is the first i have seen mention of a Biotest CH product aside from Anaconda.

from this quote you make it sound like Biotest is coming out with a CH product that is separate from Anaconda? if true, can we expect this supplement to be released before Anaconda?

Thanks again.

242

[quote]DH wrote:

It is because of the lab studies showing that blood amino levels are STILL elevated even 5-6 hours after eating a large protein rich meal that Layne postulates that pulsing with aminos will restart the PS process and the body can then utilize the lingering effects from the previous meal in an anabolic fashion all over again. Even though we have elevated levels for hours, we can’t get the anabolic benefit from the meal after 2 or at most 3 hours at best. Using BCAA, that bypass the liver, to kick start PS once again, we make our previous meal “anabolic” once again! Its simple and logical.

Best,
DH
[/quote]

If the blood amino levels are still elevated, taking more BCAA will not create a pulse and will not kick start PS again because the amino levels are still high…?? From what I understand, you have to let them fall first…Right??

If this is all true, and it makes sense to me, this info suggests eating fewer meals for more anabolism… its a bit of a shocker to me, but I’m all for it…would really make life easier

243

[quote]Iron_pump wrote:
DH wrote:

It is because of the lab studies showing that blood amino levels are STILL elevated even 5-6 hours after eating a large protein rich meal that Layne postulates that pulsing with aminos will restart the PS process and the body can then utilize the lingering effects from the previous meal in an anabolic fashion all over again. Even though we have elevated levels for hours, we can’t get the anabolic benefit from the meal after 2 or at most 3 hours at best. Using BCAA, that bypass the liver, to kick start PS once again, we make our previous meal “anabolic” once again! Its simple and logical.

Best,
DH

If the blood amino levels are still elevated, taking more BCAA will not create a pulse and will not kick start PS again because the amino levels are still high…?? From what I understand, you have to let them fall first…Right??

If this is all true, and it makes sense to me, this info suggests eating fewer meals for more anabolism… its a bit of a shocker to me, but I’m all for it…would really make life easier

[/quote]

Yeah, there was something in the mythbuster article about eating only 3-5 times a day and saying if the same nutrients are present, then it’s really no problem, etc.

CT also mentioned something in the fat loss Q/A about there not being any reserach showing eating only 3 meals a day causes muscle wasting and whatnot.

Then I also just read a book about Leptin recommending eating only 3 times a day, not snacking, and being sure to wait 5-6 hours between meals to improve leptin and leptin sensitivity.

Interesting…

244

[quote]skohcl wrote:
Iron_pump wrote:
DH wrote:

It is because of the lab studies showing that blood amino levels are STILL elevated even 5-6 hours after eating a large protein rich meal that Layne postulates that pulsing with aminos will restart the PS process and the body can then utilize the lingering effects from the previous meal in an anabolic fashion all over again. Even though we have elevated levels for hours, we can’t get the anabolic benefit from the meal after 2 or at most 3 hours at best. Using BCAA, that bypass the liver, to kick start PS once again, we make our previous meal “anabolic” once again! Its simple and logical.

Best,
DH

If the blood amino levels are still elevated, taking more BCAA will not create a pulse and will not kick start PS again because the amino levels are still high…?? From what I understand, you have to let them fall first…Right??

If this is all true, and it makes sense to me, this info suggests eating fewer meals for more anabolism… its a bit of a shocker to me, but I’m all for it…would really make life easier

Yeah, there was something in the mythbuster article about eating only 3-5 times a day and saying if the same nutrients are present, then it’s really no problem, etc.

CT also mentioned something in the fat loss Q/A about there not being any reserach showing eating only 3 meals a day causes muscle wasting and whatnot.

Then I also just read a book about Leptin recommending eating only 3 times a day, not snacking, and being sure to wait 5-6 hours between meals to improve leptin and leptin sensitivity.

Interesting…[/quote]

I’m actually thinking about testing this theory along with the efficacy of the para-workout nutrition protocol. How?

I would only consume one meal a day plus a large para-workout protocol as my only nutrition during the day.

The para-workout nutrition protocol would be:

  • 45: 2 FINiBARS
  • 30: 4 scoops WORKOUT FUEL
  • 15: 4 scoops SURGE RECOVERY
    DURING WORKOUT: 4 scoops ANACONDA

This would give me approximately:

Carbs: 250g
Protein: 170g
Fat: minimal
Calories: roughly 1700

And my meal would be something that would give me around 75g of protein, 50g of fat and minimal carbs for a total of 750 calories.

On top of that I would have 4 casein hydrolysate pulses for a total of roughly 70g of protein.

So my daily total would be:

Carbs: 250g
Protein: 315g
Fat: 50-60g
Calories: around 2800

As you can see this is actually a significant caloric deficit for me. My theory is that because of the effectiveness of the para-workout protocol and the pulsing I will actually be able to add muscle while losing fat.

245

CT-

When you say “On top of that I would have 4 casein hydrolysate pulses for a total of roughly 70g of protein.” would you be using anaconda for the pulses or a separate CH supplement?

Thanks,
Darian

246

Hey wait, do you even have any fat to lose CT?

247

[quote]ddelmast wrote:
CT-

When you say “On top of that I would have 4 casein hydrolysate pulses for a total of roughly 70g of protein.” would you be using Anaconda for the pulses or a separate CH supplement?

Thanks,
Darian[/quote]

It’s not Anaconda but I can’t say anything more than that :slight_smile:

248

[quote]skohcl wrote:
Hey wait, do you even have any fat to lose CT?[/quote]

Yes, I’m 8.2%. I would like to be back down to 5% since because of my cardiac condition I can’t carry to much muscle and I can’t train without a specific goal.

249

Hello Caoch Thibaudeau, I’m a huge fan of your work. I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

A Protein Pulse consists of 5g of Leucine, followed by 12 grams of CH 5-10 mins later. Correct?

During the week, have 1 low-protein day. On this day, I should have 1 pulse in the morning upon awakening before breakfast, and 1 pulse in the evening before my pre-bed meal. Should there be a pulse any other time during the low-protein day? Like sometime in the middle? How many grams of protein should be consumed on this day except for the pulses?

On the rest of the week, I should have a pulse before breakfast, lunch, and dinner each beginning half an hour before each meal? Breakfast and Lunch are fast digesting protein sources, Dinner and pre-bed meals are slower digesting with good fats. There is no Pulsing before Pre-bed meal Correct?

Training days include the para-workout nutrition protocols while non-training days I just do the Pulse+Meal strategy. Correct?

And my last question is: should I have more solid meals than just breakfast, Lunch, Dinner, and Pre-bed meal
or is it enough with just these 4 solid meals + the pulses before the first 3 solid meals (unless pulse is also recommended with pre-bed meal?).

Thank you for taking the time to answer the questions. I apologize if you already answered them… its just that there are so many different ways of doing it, it gets a bit confusing. Thank You.

250

A company selling peptopro had this quote posted on a forum : “Taking PP all throughout the day is NOT a good idea. You desensitize your muscle receptors to the increases in amino acid concentration”

Any opinion on this? Wouldnt pulsing 5-7 times/day on off days be doing the exact opposite of the recomendation I quoted?

Or did I missunderstood the statement?

Thank you

251

Wouldn’t it depend on the amount of PP taken? The company might be making that statement with the assumption that your pulse is 30-50g per. Then again maybe not, from the way everything sounds this is still really cutting edge so people might not be on board.

Thanks for asking that question mmar455, I’ve been working things out and have some questions I’m sorta confused about as well. I don’t expect CT to push a competitor’s product but until Biotest releases their CH, I’m trying to work out a quality mix from another supplier. Right now I’ve got some PP mixed with CH, and I imagine it could be much better than that. If anyone has any recommendations I wouldn’t mind a PM to discuss it.

Thanks

252

[quote]Aggro wrote:
Wouldn’t it depend on the amount of PP taken? The company might be making that statement with the assumption that your pulse is 30-50g per. Then again maybe not, from the way everything sounds this is still really cutting edge so people might not be on board.

Thanks for asking that question mmar455, I’ve been working things out and have some questions I’m sorta confused about as well. I don’t expect CT to push a competitor’s product but until Biotest releases their CH, I’m trying to work out a quality mix from another supplier. Right now I’ve got some PP mixed with CH, and I imagine it could be much better than that. If anyone has any recommendations I wouldn’t mind a PM to discuss it.

Thanks[/quote]

Recommended dose was 10-15g

253

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
skohcl wrote:
Hey wait, do you even have any fat to lose CT?

Yes, I’m 8.2%. I would like to be back down to 5% since because of my cardiac condition I can’t carry to much muscle and I can’t train without a specific goal.[/quote]

Thib,

How are you tracking your body fat % right now? I know the DEXA scan is the most accurate, but gets expensive to use tracking monthly. Is it best to use the DEXA for a baseline, then use calipers to track weekly progress?

254

What time of the day would you have the meal? or wouldn’t matter?

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
skohcl wrote:
Iron_pump wrote:
DH wrote:

It is because of the lab studies showing that blood amino levels are STILL elevated even 5-6 hours after eating a large protein rich meal that Layne postulates that pulsing with aminos will restart the PS process and the body can then utilize the lingering effects from the previous meal in an anabolic fashion all over again. Even though we have elevated levels for hours, we can’t get the anabolic benefit from the meal after 2 or at most 3 hours at best. Using BCAA, that bypass the liver, to kick start PS once again, we make our previous meal “anabolic” once again! Its simple and logical.

Best,
DH

If the blood amino levels are still elevated, taking more BCAA will not create a pulse and will not kick start PS again because the amino levels are still high…?? From what I understand, you have to let them fall first…Right??

If this is all true, and it makes sense to me, this info suggests eating fewer meals for more anabolism… its a bit of a shocker to me, but I’m all for it…would really make life easier

Yeah, there was something in the mythbuster article about eating only 3-5 times a day and saying if the same nutrients are present, then it’s really no problem, etc.

CT also mentioned something in the fat loss Q/A about there not being any reserach showing eating only 3 meals a day causes muscle wasting and whatnot.

Then I also just read a book about Leptin recommending eating only 3 times a day, not snacking, and being sure to wait 5-6 hours between meals to improve leptin and leptin sensitivity.

Interesting…

I’m actually thinking about testing this theory along with the efficacy of the para-workout nutrition protocol. How?

I would only consume one meal a day plus a large para-workout protocol as my only nutrition during the day.

The para-workout nutrition protocol would be:

  • 45: 2 FINiBARS
  • 30: 4 scoops WORKOUT FUEL
  • 15: 4 scoops SURGE RECOVERY
    DURING WORKOUT: 4 scoops ANACONDA

This would give me approximately:

Carbs: 250g
Protein: 170g
Fat: minimal
Calories: roughly 1700

And my meal would be something that would give me around 75g of protein, 50g of fat and minimal carbs for a total of 750 calories.

On top of that I would have 4 casein hydrolysate pulses for a total of roughly 70g of protein.

So my daily total would be:

Carbs: 250g
Protein: 315g
Fat: 50-60g
Calories: around 2800

As you can see this is actually a significant caloric deficit for me. My theory is that because of the effectiveness of the para-workout protocol and the pulsing I will actually be able to add muscle while losing fat.[/quote]

255

Thought I’d make a contribution, found this just now:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/1/106

Koopman R, Crombach N, Gijsen AP, Walrand S, Fauquant J, Kies AK, Lemosquet S, Saris WH, Boirie Y, van Loon LJ.
BACKGROUND: It has been suggested that a protein hydrolysate, as opposed to its intact protein, is more easily digested and absorbed from the gut, which results in greater plasma amino acid availability and a greater muscle protein synthetic response. OBJECTIVE: We aimed to compare dietary protein digestion and absorption kinetics and the subsequent muscle protein synthetic response to the ingestion of a single bolus of protein hydrolysate compared with its intact protein in vivo in humans. DESIGN: Ten elderly men (mean +/- SEM age: 64 +/- 1 y) were randomly assigned to a crossover experiment that involved 2 treatments in which the subjects consumed a 35-g bolus of specifically produced l-[1-(13)C]phenylalanine-labeled intact casein (CAS) or hydrolyzed casein (CASH). Blood and muscle-tissue samples were collected to assess the appearance rate of dietary protein-derived phenylalanine in the circulation and subsequent muscle protein fractional synthetic rate over a 6-h postprandial period. RESULTS: The mean (+/-SEM) exogenous phenylalanine appearance rate was 27 +/- 6% higher after ingestion of CASH when compared with CAS (P < 0.001). Splanchnic extraction was significantly lower in CASH compared with CAS treatment (P < 0.01). Plasma amino acid concentrations increased to a greater extent (25-50%) after the ingestion of CASH than with CAS (P < 0.01). Muscle protein synthesis rates averaged 0.054 +/- 0.004% and 0.068 +/- 0.006%/h in the CAS and CASH treatments, respectively (P = 0.10). CONCLUSIONS: Ingestion of a protein hydrolysate, as opposed to its intact protein, accelerates protein digestion and absorption from the gut, augments postprandial amino acid availability, and tends to increase the incorporation rate of dietary amino acids into skeletal muscle protein.

256

[quote]skohcl wrote:
Thought I’d make a contribution, found this just now:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/1/106

Koopman R, Crombach N, Gijsen AP, Walrand S, Fauquant J, Kies AK, Lemosquet S, Saris WH, Boirie Y, van Loon LJ.
BACKGROUND: It has been suggested that a protein hydrolysate, as opposed to its intact protein, is more easily digested and absorbed from the gut, which results in greater plasma amino acid availability and a greater muscle protein synthetic response. OBJECTIVE: We aimed to compare dietary protein digestion and absorption kinetics and the subsequent muscle protein synthetic response to the ingestion of a single bolus of protein hydrolysate compared with its intact protein in vivo in humans. DESIGN: Ten elderly men (mean +/- SEM age: 64 +/- 1 y) were randomly assigned to a crossover experiment that involved 2 treatments in which the subjects consumed a 35-g bolus of specifically produced l-[1-(13)C]phenylalanine-labeled intact casein (CAS) or hydrolyzed casein (CASH). Blood and muscle-tissue samples were collected to assess the appearance rate of dietary protein-derived phenylalanine in the circulation and subsequent muscle protein fractional synthetic rate over a 6-h postprandial period. RESULTS: The mean (+/-SEM) exogenous phenylalanine appearance rate was 27 +/- 6% higher after ingestion of CASH when compared with CAS (P < 0.001). Splanchnic extraction was significantly lower in CASH compared with CAS treatment (P < 0.01). Plasma amino acid concentrations increased to a greater extent (25-50%) after the ingestion of CASH than with CAS (P < 0.01). Muscle protein synthesis rates averaged 0.054 +/- 0.004% and 0.068 +/- 0.006%/h in the CAS and CASH treatments, respectively (P = 0.10). CONCLUSIONS: Ingestion of a protein hydrolysate, as opposed to its intact protein, accelerates protein digestion and absorption from the gut, augments postprandial amino acid availability, and tends to increase the incorporation rate of dietary amino acids into skeletal muscle protein.[/quote]

Nice, that’s some good stuff.

257

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
See it this way man, the more pulses you have the more anabolism you stimulate. Each pulse… a pulse being comprised of a low amino-acid state immediately followed by a super high amino-acid state, each pulse stimulates protein synthesis for a relatively short period of time (around 30-45 minutes). The more of these peaks and valleys you have, the more you’ll grow.[/quote]

So if I eat 5-6 times a day, would pulsing before every one of these meals be more beneficial than pulsing only 2-3 times a day?

EDIT -
never mind, you answered this already.

258

Sorry if this has been asked. But what about Hydrolysed Whey Protein? Is it a bad idea pulsing or any part of the protocol? Thanks so much.

259

[quote]nickj_777 wrote:
Sorry if this has been asked. But what about Hydrolysed Whey Protein? Is it a bad idea pulsing or any part of the protocol? Thanks so much.[/quote]

Hydrolized and Hydrolysate are the same things. Hydro whey can be used, but you should really use CH.

260

Coach, for about a year now I have had difficulty drinking my Metabolic Drive shakes. Not because of taste, but because it feels like they are stuck half way down my chest and this feeling lasts for a couple of hours and is really unpleasant. I tried to use the HCL supplement to remedy this but didn’t really get any results. It could be that I didn’t use it for long encough, but I thought I would ask if you had any other recommendations. My wife says it is GERD and I am just getting old and need to accept it(I’m 41). Thank you in advance.