CT, so when you say Pulse, do you define it as just the Anaconda/or CH shake? Or does a Pulse include the Leucine before hand?
Hey Coach,
Given that the protein pulsing protocol has changed and no doubt may change again and again due to more research and knowledge. Would you say the points below are correct?
-
Ensure fast/er absorbed protein meals low fat, in the early 3/4 of the day and slower protein and high fats during the last 2 meals with a total of roughly 6 meals.
-
Pulse 15-30 mins before each meal with approx 12g CH.
-
Intake 5-10g 5-10 mins before each pulse.
-
Total amount of protein can simply be reduced heavily to 1-1.5g/lb, leaning toward the higher end if on strict low carbs
Not sure if I missed anything.
thanks for you time,
GJ
Coach,
I normally train at 12:30 in the afternoon and was wondering if the times I have been going by look good
6:45 AM - Protein Pulse (CH)
7:15 AM - Meal (depends on low, med or high carb day)
9:30 AM - Protein Pulse (CH)
11:30 AM - 2 Alpha-GPC
11:50 AM - 2 FINiBARs
12:00 PM - 3 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
12:20 PM - 3 scoops Surge Recovery
During Workout (12:30-1:45) - 30 grams CH
2:45 PM - Protein Pulse (CH)
3:00-3:10 - Protein + Carb meal
I was wondering if I should add a pulse in between the meal at 3 and my dinner which usually is around 7-7:30 ish. Would it be ok to do a pulse then without a meal and then another before dinner or would they be too close together.
Thanks Coach,
Evan
[quote]Gymjunkie wrote:
Hey Coach,
Given that the protein pulsing protocol has changed and no doubt may change again and again due to more research and knowledge. Would you say the points below are correct?
-
Ensure fast/er absorbed protein meals low fat, in the early 3/4 of the day and slower protein and high fats during the last 2 meals with a total of roughly 6 meals.
-
Pulse 15-30 mins before each meal with approx 12g CH.
-
Intake 5-10g 5-10 mins before each pulse.
-
Total amount of protein can simply be reduced heavily to 1-1.5g/lb, leaning toward the higher end if on strict low carbs
Not sure if I missed anything.
thanks for you time,
GJ[/quote]
Correct except for no. 4.
It should read:
Protein intake should be set between 1 and 1.25g per pound not counting the para-workout intake.
[quote]brentcozi wrote:
if using pulsing to loose fat would it be more effective to have a longer time between the pulses and meals as you need to consume less calories for the day and spreding the intake would make this easier?
or do you need to have the meal 10-15 minutes later to provide extra aminos and nutrients to make the most of protein synthesis?
[/quote]
No, the time between the pulse and its subsequent meal should be stable at 15-30 minutes max. More than that and you lose the benefits of the pulse.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Gymjunkie wrote:
Hey Coach,
Given that the protein pulsing protocol has changed and no doubt may change again and again due to more research and knowledge. Would you say the points below are correct?
-
Ensure fast/er absorbed protein meals low fat, in the early 3/4 of the day and slower protein and high fats during the last 2 meals with a total of roughly 6 meals.
-
Pulse 15-30 mins before each meal with approx 12g CH.
-
Intake 5-10g 5-10 mins before each pulse.
-
Total amount of protein can simply be reduced heavily to 1-1.5g/lb, leaning toward the higher end if on strict low carbs
Not sure if I missed anything.
thanks for you time,
GJ
Correct except for no. 4.
It should read:
Protein intake should be set between 1 and 1.25g per pound not counting the para-workout intake.[/quote]
thanks coach
GJ
what’s your opinion on l-glutamine supplementation if I’m trying to burn fat. I’m already in good shape and want to lose about 2-3 pounds of fat. Currently 6’0 and 160 lb.
[quote]mkol023 wrote:
what’s your opinion on l-glutamine supplementation if I’m trying to burn fat. I’m already in good shape and want to lose about 2-3 pounds of fat. Currently 6’0 and 160 lb.[/quote]
Thibs already explained that. You don’t need glutamine unless you have a severe immune system problem or using near 0 carb approach with your diet.
Coach, why would we lose the benefits of the pulse in that case??
I mean you still hit high levels of protein synthesis and hyperamino… with the shake-only meal??
Also did you notice any difference when you decreased your CH pulses to 12 gr from 20 g??
thanks
[quote]mkol023 wrote:
what’s your opinion on l-glutamine supplementation if I’m trying to burn fat. I’m already in good shape and want to lose about 2-3 pounds of fat. Currently 6’0 and 160 lb.[/quote]
-
losing 2-3lbs of fat should be a breeze, you’ll only need to make slight modifications to what you are currently doing like lowering carbs slightly and maybe increasing activity a bit.
-
glutamine can be helpful if you need to boost your immune system or to replace carbs if you follow a zero/low carbs diet.
Other than that, don’t waste your money.
Thib,
With this, what would Tim’s team suggest the optimal meal spacing to be then?
It seems that even if one ate every 3 hours, as we’ve always done, then we could still use the speed of the aminos/hydros to spike each meal all day long and overcome the refractory response that happens after 2 hours from each feeding. Maybe…
BUT it does seem that Ive read that Leucine content stays maxed out for about 3-4 hours (even though of course protein synthesis has dropped after 2 hours).
At first glsnce, I would think that its still likely that a meal spacing of about 4 hours would be best to ensure enough of a drop in blood amino levels.
best
DH[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
brentcozi wrote:
if using pulsing to loose fat would it be more effective to have a longer time between the pulses and meals as you need to consume less calories for the day and spreding the intake would make this easier?
or do you need to have the meal 10-15 minutes later to provide extra aminos and nutrients to make the most of protein synthesis?
No, the time between the pulse and its subsequent meal should be stable at 15-30 minutes max. More than that and you lose the benefits of the pulse. [/quote]
DH,
I believe you read this here:
www.abcbodybuilding.com/protein_size_&_frequency.pdf
Quoting the publication from Layne Norton:
Several studies have shown that the duration of protein synthesis in response to an oral leucine dose or an essential amino acid infusion is approximately two hours long4,5. However, these are purified amino acid solutions and are likely to be digested rapidly and in the case of an infusion, no digestion is required at all. So it is possible that a whole food meal will have a different impact on the duration of protein synthesis than pure amino acids. Our lab has recently shown that the duration of protein synthesis in response to a complete meal containing protein, carbohydrates, and fats is approximately 3 hours long6. Therefore, it appears that a complete meal slightly prolongs the duration of protein synthesis. What is interesting about our findings is that while protein synthesis had returned to baseline after 3 hours, plasma amino acid levels were still elevated above baseline and plasma leucine was elevated almost 3x above baseline! Accordingly, the phosphoryation of the initiation factors 4E-BP1 & p70S6K followed plasma leucine levels and maintained elevated levels of phosphorylation at 3 hours (phosphorylation of these initiation factors is required to start the process of protein synthesis).
Further:
It is unlikely that eating another meal 2-3 hours after the first meal would be sufficient to induce another rise in protein synthesis since amino acid/leucine levels are already elevated. It may therefore, be more useful to consume larger amounts of protein at a meal and wait longer between protein doses than the typical 2-3 hours that is typically recommended in the bodybuilding community.
Toward the end of the article:
It is possible that a free form amino acid supplement could spike plasma levels of amino acids to a far greater level than can be achieved with whole foods and perhaps this supraphysiological response is enough to overcome the refractory response. It is also possible that the carbohydrates in the supplement have an effect.
This may be what Biotest has achieved with their protocol and products. Time will tell.
[quote]DH wrote:
Thib,
With this, what would Tim’s team suggest the optimal meal spacing to be then?
It seems that even if one ate every 3 hours, as we’ve always done, then we could still use the speed of the aminos/hydros to spike each meal all day long and overcome the refractory response that happens after 2 hours from each feeding. Maybe…
BUT it does seem that Ive read that Leucine content stays maxed out for about 3-4 hours (even though of course protein synthesis has dropped after 2 hours).
At first glsnce, I would think that its still likely that a meal spacing of about 4 hours would be best to ensure enough of a drop in blood amino levels.
best
DHChristian Thibaudeau wrote:
brentcozi wrote:
if using pulsing to loose fat would it be more effective to have a longer time between the pulses and meals as you need to consume less calories for the day and spreding the intake would make this easier?
or do you need to have the meal 10-15 minutes later to provide extra aminos and nutrients to make the most of protein synthesis?
No, the time between the pulse and its subsequent meal should be stable at 15-30 minutes max. More than that and you lose the benefits of the pulse.
[/quote]
Yes, Undone, that was where I read that! Layne is using BCAA spaced like I layed out before so that one can take advantage of what is still present in the blood stream with these jabs.
If PS has gone refractory after 2 hours, and this was shown in the direct amino acid infusion studies, and we still have elevated blood levels of all the aminos and in partciular the all important Leucine even though the body has become non-responsive, then by using something very fast such as a pure amino mixture (or possibly a hydrolysate that is significant hydrolyzed to a high enough percentage of di and tri peptides) after the PS signal has been exhausted from the previous meal we can restart the signal to induce PS again and we still have plenty of substrate (elevated aminos, etc…) from our previous mixed meal to “assist” the BCAA bolus.
It is because of the lab studies showing that blood amino levels are STILL elevated even 5-6 hours after eating a large protein rich meal that Layne postulates that pulsing with aminos will restart the PS process and the body can then utilize the lingering effects from the previous meal in an anabolic fashion all over again. Even though we have elevated levels for hours, we can’t get the anabolic benefit from the meal after 2 or at most 3 hours at best. Using BCAA, that bypass the liver, to kick start PS once again, we make our previous meal “anabolic” once again! Its simple and logical.
BTW, this is my understanding of Norton and Wilson’s position, both of whom I have conversed with, but I want to add the caveat that I in no way want to put words into someone else’s mouth. That ain’t cool. 
Best,
DH
Is it correct that leucine should only be supplemented every 4-6 hours, because levels of leucine remain elevated for that long before falling back to base line, and what we want is change in the leu concentrations from baseline not just an increase in absolute leu concentrations?
If we were to use leucine along with each pulse, would this mean we should space the pulses out at least 4-6 hours to let leucine levels fall to reap the benefits of increased protein synthesis from the leucine?
[quote]MrRogersPostman wrote:
Is it correct that leucine should only be supplemented every 4-6 hours, because levels of leucine remain elevated for that long before falling back to base line, and what we want is change in the leu concentrations from baseline not just an increase in absolute leu concentrations?
If we were to use leucine along with each pulse, would this mean we should space the pulses out at least 4-6 hours to let leucine levels fall to reap the benefits of increased protein synthesis from the leucine?
[/quote]
If I read Norton’s article correctly, in his “Theoretical Model of Protein Synthetic Response to fluctuating spikes in Leucine concentration” he had solid meals spaced 4 hours apart with a combination of CHO + BCAA at the midway point (2 hours after the solid meal). He states “it appears that supplementing with an amino acid supplement containing ~2-3g of leucine along with some carbohydrates (~20-30g) is an effective way to maximize muscle protein synthesis”.
He admits “research is just not specific or broad enough to address the size and frequency issue with absolute certainty” but suggested this as a starting point.
DH is much more familiar with this area than I and his comments are always helpful. I look forward to seeing Thib’s finalized protocol, especially with the results he has experienced.
BTW, I think it was Lyle McDonald who wrote that training twice a day shifted everything into another realm. Something along the lines of PS is enhanced with respect to the amount and/or timing. I will search for the reference.
Of all the supplements I am taking, which do you recommend I keep or stop wasting money on? Also are there any basic products (like bcaa’s) you really recommend I get? I’m not worried about gaining a lot of muscle, but still try to lift heavy @ the gym in order to keep as much muscle as possible while also incorporating sprints/cardio. In a workout I do cardio 20 minutes, weights 1 hours (mostly compound lifts, plyometrics 20 minutes, 100mx7 sprints as long as it takes.
ON protein - no more than 2 scoops a day
Fish oil - I take 3-6 in a day (330mg epa, 220mg dha).
(when is the best time to take them?)
Zinc picolinate (50mg capsule) - 1 before bed
Super b-complex(b6,b12, thiamin)- 1/day
l-glutamine - established waste of money
BTW, I’ve been anonymously reading this site for a couple of months. I have to say you guys seriously know your shit, so thanks for all of the help even though I never posted before.
With the new info you have has your diet changed, and are you using any leucine?
By the way I really appreciate you taking the time to answer our questions and share your knowledge. I know you are very busy and have better things to do. You have been a HUGE help with me attaining my fitness goals. Thank you very much.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Quadforce wrote:
Christian, if this is not too much to ask for, what does your current diet look like on workout days?
I normally train at 3:30pm…
Wake up at 6am: 1 scoop Anaconda
6:30: 1 FINiBAR
9:00: 1 scoop Anaconda
9:30: 300-400g of fruits
12:00: Low-fat fish (tilapia, sole) 200-300g
14:45: 2 FINiBARS
15:00: 2 scoops workout fuel
15:15: 2 scoop SURGE RECOVERY
15:30 - 17:00 (during workout): 2 scoops Anaconda
18:00: 1-2 scoops whey
18:30: 200-300g red meat, green veggies, fish oil
21:00: 200-300g chicken, green veggies, fish oil
Before bed: Low-carbs Metabolic Drive (2 scoops)[/quote]
Notice on page 21, that Layne is speculating on optimal meal frequency. One of the notes questions whether “plasma lecuine levels may need to fall before MPS can be stimulated again”. I believe the Paddon-Jones study answers this better than even the best speculation can do. They used large mixed meals containing 850 cals at each of the three meals. Now, without currently looking at the specifics of the study, I’d speculate that about 15-20% of that meal was in the form of protein.
This is a common feature in the use of a “standard” mixed meal in most studies Ive seen. That gives us about 30-40g of protein at least. So they ate a large meal and it had adequate protein to stimulate MPS. The meal would have very likely provided the 3-4g of leucine to maximize protein synthesis for AVERAGE sized individuals. Now, just 2.5 hours after the mixed meal, plasma leucine would still be elevated and be holding in a rather “steady” pattern as is shown on Laynes graph. This means that Paddon-Jones et al. showed that even though plasma LEU was still very high that an amino mixture containing almost 3g of LEU was able to stimulate MPS once again. So, as Layne and Wilson &Wilson have deduced, “changes in LEU concentration are more important than absolute LEU levels.” This is thier theory based on the relevant studies put together as a whole.
I would even speculate that the added CHO is unnecessary with the spacing of a meal every 4 hours and BCAA in between because the time coure of insulin from Layne’s graph shows elevated insulin levels for nearly three hours after the solid mixed meal. So, in essence we still have plenty of aminos in the blood AND we have sufficiently elevated insulin to spike MPS once again.
NOTE: it is just speculation that we need insulin to be elevated above baseline at all. Layne just noticed a curious similarity between insuin and MPS levels from the previous meal. He notes that this may or may not be significant. And, BCAA stimulate a transient boost in insuin independent of CHO as well.
Best,
DH
[quote]MrRogersPostman wrote:
Is it correct that leucine should only be supplemented every 4-6 hours, because levels of leucine remain elevated for that long before falling back to base line, and what we want is change in the leu concentrations from baseline not just an increase in absolute leu concentrations?
If we were to use leucine along with each pulse, would this mean we should space the pulses out at least 4-6 hours to let leucine levels fall to reap the benefits of increased protein synthesis from the leucine?
[/quote]
DH,
Using Layne’s protocol and assuming the solid meal had at least 40g of protein, what is the level of BCAA’s to ingest at the midpoint? Does it make sense to use a combination of BCAA’s and LEU? Would the same protocol be used on workout days and non-workout days? Last, would a 197lb male need the same amount as a 260lb male? I know you have researched this area extensively and I appreciate you enlightening us with your findings.
Thanks,
Undone
[quote]DH wrote:
Notice on page 21, that Layne is speculating on optimal meal frequency. One of the notes questions whether “plasma lecuine levels may need to fall before MPS can be stimulated again”. I believe the Paddon-Jones study answers this better than even the best speculation can do. They used large mixed meals containing 850 cals at each of the three meals. Now, without currently looking at the specifics of the study, I’d speculate that about 15-20% of that meal was in the form of protein.
This is a common feature in the use of a “standard” mixed meal in most studies Ive seen. That gives us about 30-40g of protein at least. So they ate a large meal and it had adequate protein to stimulate MPS. The meal would have very likely provided the 3-4g of leucine to maximize protein synthesis for AVERAGE sized individuals. Now, just 2.5 hours after the mixed meal, plasma leucine would still be elevated and be holding in a rather “steady” pattern as is shown on Laynes graph. This means that Paddon-Jones et al. showed that even though plasma LEU was still very high that an amino mixture containing almost 3g of LEU was able to stimulate MPS once again. So, as Layne and Wilson &Wilson have deduced, “changes in LEU concentration are more important than absolute LEU levels.” This is thier theory based on the relevant studies put together as a whole.
I would even speculate that the added CHO is unnecessary with the spacing of a meal every 4 hours and BCAA in between because the time coure of insulin from Layne’s graph shows elevated insulin levels for nearly three hours after the solid mixed meal. So, in essence we still have plenty of aminos in the blood AND we have sufficiently elevated insulin to spike MPS once again.
NOTE: it is just speculation that we need insulin to be elevated above baseline at all. Layne just noticed a curious similarity between insuin and MPS levels from the previous meal. He notes that this may or may not be significant. And, BCAA stimulate a transient boost in insuin independent of CHO as well.
Best,
DH
MrRogersPostman wrote:
Is it correct that leucine should only be supplemented every 4-6 hours, because levels of leucine remain elevated for that long before falling back to base line, and what we want is change in the leu concentrations from baseline not just an increase in absolute leu concentrations?
If we were to use leucine along with each pulse, would this mean we should space the pulses out at least 4-6 hours to let leucine levels fall to reap the benefits of increased protein synthesis from the leucine?
[/quote]
Layne consumes 3g of Leucine as part of a BCAA mixture. While he cites 3-4g being optimal, many people don’t pay attention to what is to be considered with that. The real marker is to use about .045g/kg to as much as .06g/kg.
I personally settle on .05g/kg for my own use.
Note that Layne referenced a study by Tipton that showed that there was no difference between using about 4g LEU vs 8g LEU. So we do know there is a saturation point. AND we know that studies use average sized individuals unless it happens to be done with large athletes or obese individuals. So for me at 260 or so (118kg) I use about 6g Leucine as part of a BCAA mix. Most mixes are in a 2:1:1 ratio but some are maybe “better” at 4:1:1. Or just add a bit of extra LEU to your BCAA mix to arrive at the most economical formulation.
As far as just LEU or all 3 BCAA? Well on the one hand, we know that all the aminos are in abundant supply for hours after a meal even though PS has dropped. So that would lead us to think that LEU alone will suffice.
BUT, I feel “safer” using all 3 BCAA as other EAA are known, to a lesser degree, to also stimulate PS and we really don’t know all the details on all of this. Its probably prudent to use BCAA for now.
NOW, concerning the use of BCAA peri-workout, we probably should look beyond just the MPS issue and take note of the study by Carli, et al that showed using BCAA at a dose of about 20g both pre and post workout prevented the normal drop in T levels. Also, by providing a bigger bolus at this time, we allow for some “burn off” if you will. We use a bigger hit of BCAA to protect a sufficient amount of BCAA to stimulate MPS and inhibit breakdown.
So, it would seem that using more than what is necessary to maximize MPS is a prudent practice peri-workout for other peripheral but important benefits as well.
Best,
DH
Dr. Richard Kreider:
First, BCAA supplementation has been reported to decreaseexercise-induced protein degradation and/or muscle enzyme release (anindicator of muscle damage) possibly by promoting an anti-catabolichormonal profile (Carli et al., 1992;Coombes and McNaughton, 1995).Theoretically, BCAA supplementation during intense training may helpminimize protein degradation and thereby lead to greater gains infat-free mass. Although several studies support this hypothesis,additional research is necessary to determine the long-term effectsof BCAA supplementation during training on markers of catabolism,body composition, and strength (Kreider,1998).
Various other BCAA benefits:
BCAA consumed during training raise both growth hormone and insulin at the same time, hence the increased anti-catabolism and anabolism.
The BCAAs, unlike the other amino acids, are used as a form of energy by muscle cells.
The study by Carli et al. (1992) showed that supplementing with branched chain amino acids prior to a workout not only prevents a decrease in post-workout testosterone levels, but actually allowed testosterone levels to increase following exercise.
BCAAs administration has an anti-catabolic effect by favoring a better testosterone/cortisol ratio.
BCAAs administration also reduces the exercise induced increase in the muscle concentration of tyrosine and phenylalanine, therefore indicating a decreased net rate of protein degradation during exercise.
There is a serious decrement in post workout soreness when you use BCAA during the training unit.
An Italian study on natural bodybuilders showed that 0.2 g of BCAA per kg of bodyweight 30 minutes before workout and 30 minutes after workouts lead to greater increases in lean body mass and strength in the bench press and squat.