Questions About Peri-Workout Nutrition

Training
161

Quote from a Post-Workout nutrition interview with John Berardi in 2003:
“Another mistake is drinking a big serving of Surge immediately prior to working out. As I demonstrated earlier, Surge has a powerful hypoglycemic effect in the non-exercise state. Therefore, if one were to drink Surge about 15 to 20 minutes prior to exercise, they’d probably have a blood sugar crash.” - John Berardi

In this old article, Dr. Berardi explains how the elevated insulin levels from Surge take glucose levels way down extremely quickly (15-30 min post ingestion) and goes on to suggest sipping Surge Recovery throughout the workout.

I am sure I am missing something, but it seems as if the Surge pre-workout followed by protein only (Anaconda/CH) during the workout would lead to this hypoglycemic state? Do you not need continually elevated insulin levels during this period rather than just a quick spike at the beginning of the workout?

Thank you very much,
Doug

162

[quote]Professor Chaos wrote:
Quote from a Post-Workout nutrition interview with John Berardi in 2003:
“Another mistake is drinking a big serving of Surge immediately prior to working out. As I demonstrated earlier, Surge has a powerful hypoglycemic effect in the non-exercise state. Therefore, if one were to drink Surge about 15 to 20 minutes prior to exercise, they’d probably have a blood sugar crash.” - John Berardi

In this old article, Dr. Berardi explains how the elevated insulin levels from Surge take glucose levels way down extremely quickly (15-30 min post ingestion) and goes on to suggest sipping Surge Recovery throughout the workout.

I am sure I am missing something, but it seems as if the Surge pre-workout followed by protein only (Anaconda/CH) during the workout would lead to this hypoglycemic state? Do you not need continually elevated insulin levels during this period rather than just a quick spike at the beginning of the workout?

Thank you very much,
Doug[/quote]

I would think the slower-absorbing carbs in the SWOF and Finibars would keep you from crashing as they would keep your blood sugar from bottoming out.

163

[quote]jstines wrote:
Professor Chaos wrote:
Quote from a Post-Workout nutrition interview with John Berardi in 2003:
“Another mistake is drinking a big serving of Surge immediately prior to working out. As I demonstrated earlier, Surge has a powerful hypoglycemic effect in the non-exercise state. Therefore, if one were to drink Surge about 15 to 20 minutes prior to exercise, they’d probably have a blood sugar crash.” - John Berardi

In this old article, Dr. Berardi explains how the elevated insulin levels from Surge take glucose levels way down extremely quickly (15-30 min post ingestion) and goes on to suggest sipping Surge Recovery throughout the workout.

I am sure I am missing something, but it seems as if the Surge pre-workout followed by protein only (Anaconda/CH) during the workout would lead to this hypoglycemic state? Do you not need continually elevated insulin levels during this period rather than just a quick spike at the beginning of the workout?

Thank you very much,
Doug

I would think the slower-absorbing carbs in the SWOF and Finibars would keep you from crashing as they would keep your blood sugar from bottoming out.

[/quote]

That’s one part of the answer. The other one is that once the workout starts and catecholamines are released, the actually impact of insulin is largely blunted and aminos/carbs uptake by the muscles become largely due to non-insulin mediated means.

So what you have is the initial insulin spike which drives a ton of aminos and carbs into the muscles right from the start AND TURN ON PROTEIN SYNTHESIS GENES (it’s not just about nutrients transport) then midway through the workout you continue to get delivery that is non-insulinodependant. However, insulin, albeit somewhat inhibited, remains present.

As the workout progresses GH is being produced. When GH and insulin are both present at the same time it leads to the production of both hepatic and intramuscular IGF-1, which also stimulates protein synthesis.

And this is the simpler version. As you can see, there is much more to the system than simply loading up on carbs and aminos.

164

Coach,

After reading a few of your recommendations regarding when to take in your solid meal post workout, I have changed my plan a bit.

Last week, I trialed the protocol results leading to a lost a TINY bit of muscle(0.2%) but I did lose 0.6% bf(yes, I’m in a fat loss phase - NO CARBS, very insulin resistant, following CP protocols etc).

LAST WEEKS PLAN:

05:00 Pre Breakfast: 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5g leucine

05:30 Breakfast: 10 Egg white omelet + 50g lean bacon + green veggies

PARAWORKOUT
06:30 Pre workout 2 Scoops White Flood
06:50 Pre workout 15g Casein Hydrolysate
07:00 â?? 08:00 WORKOUT
07:30 During Workout: 20g Casein Hydrolysate
08:15 Post workout: 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5g creatine+20g glycine+5g taurine
09:20 Post workout 5-10g leucine
09:30 Post workout 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine

12:00 Lunch: 250g White Meat + Green veggies

15:00 Snack 2: 20g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine

18:00 Dinner: 250g Red Meat + Avocado + Cheese + Salad

21:00 Snack3: 2 Omega 3 Eggs + 2 scoops Miscellar Casein + cream + nuts + 5g taurine + 10g flaxmeal

THIS WEEKS PLAN:

05:00 Pre Breakfast: 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5g leucine

05:30 Breakfast: 10 Egg white omelet + 50g lean bacon + green veggies

PARAWORKOUT
06:30 Pre workout 2 Scoops White Flood
06:50 Pre workout 15g Casein Hydrolysate
07:00 â?? 08:00 WORKOUT
07:30 During Workout: 20g Casein Hydrolysate
08:00 Finish workout

09:00 Post workout 30-60g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine

10:00 Lunch: 250g White Meat + Green veggies

13:00 Snack 2: 20g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine

15:30 Snack 3: 20g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine

18:00 Dinner: 250g Red Meat + Avocado + Cheese + Salad

21:00 Snack 4: 2 Omega 3 Eggs + 3 scoops Miscellar Casein + cream + nuts + 5g taurine + 10g flaxmeal

So the only change was moving my lunch closer to postworkout, dropping the immediate post workout shake and adding another pulse - Okay to have 2 pulses in the form of shakes in a row?

I attribute some muscle loss last week to the delayed solid meal post workout which as you can see was 3hr after a postworkout pulse.

THANKS FOR YOU TIME,

GJ

165

[quote]Gymjunkie wrote:
Coach,

After reading a few of your recommendations regarding when to take in your solid meal post workout, I have changed my plan a bit.

Last week, I trialed the protocol results leading to a lost a TINY bit of muscle(0.2%) but I did lose 0.6% bf(yes, I’m in a fat loss phase - NO CARBS, very insulin resistant, following CP protocols etc).

LAST WEEKS PLAN:

05:00 Pre Breakfast: 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5g leucine

05:30 Breakfast: 10 Egg white omelet + 50g lean bacon + green veggies

PARAWORKOUT
06:30 Pre workout 2 Scoops White Flood
06:50 Pre workout 15g Casein Hydrolysate
07:00 �¢?? 08:00 WORKOUT
07:30 During Workout: 20g Casein Hydrolysate
08:15 Post workout: 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5g creatine+20g glycine+5g taurine
09:20 Post workout 5-10g leucine
09:30 Post workout 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine

12:00 Lunch: 250g White Meat + Green veggies

15:00 Snack 2: 20g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine

18:00 Dinner: 250g Red Meat + Avocado + Cheese + Salad

21:00 Snack3: 2 Omega 3 Eggs + 2 scoops Miscellar Casein + cream + nuts + 5g taurine + 10g flaxmeal

THIS WEEKS PLAN:

05:00 Pre Breakfast: 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5g leucine

05:30 Breakfast: 10 Egg white omelet + 50g lean bacon + green veggies

PARAWORKOUT
06:30 Pre workout 2 Scoops White Flood
06:50 Pre workout 15g Casein Hydrolysate
07:00 �¢?? 08:00 WORKOUT
07:30 During Workout: 20g Casein Hydrolysate
08:00 Finish workout

09:00 Post workout 30-60g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine

10:00 Lunch: 250g White Meat + Green veggies

13:00 Snack 2: 20g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine

15:30 Snack 3: 20g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine

18:00 Dinner: 250g Red Meat + Avocado + Cheese + Salad

21:00 Snack 4: 2 Omega 3 Eggs + 3 scoops Miscellar Casein + cream + nuts + 5g taurine + 10g flaxmeal

So the only change was moving my lunch closer to postworkout, dropping the immediate post workout shake and adding another pulse - Okay to have 2 pulses in the form of shakes in a row?

I attribute some muscle loss last week to the delayed solid meal post workout which as you can see was 3hr after a postworkout pulse.

THANKS FOR YOU TIME,

GJ[/quote]

I appreciate your enthusiasm about this, but honestly I don’t really like where it’s going. I did try to bastardize the program a bit by changing some of the elements, but you guys took it to extreme levels. YES CH is one ingredient of Anaconda. But it is far from being the only element in there. Your protocol actually isn’t using ANY of the same elements from my protocol.

It is an incredibly cheapened out version. I would like you to stop right now, not only will you not get the results you believe you could (cheap ingredients, missing at least 3/4 of the good stuff) but you will actually give the protocol a bad name.

Heck, let’s look at the goal of the original protocol:

  1. Load up the muscles with carbs without causing an early insulin response (hence the use of FINiBARs which contains rice oligodextrin and palatinose)

  2. Continue to load the muscles with carbs without causing too much of an insulin response, start to pull in water, phosphates, electrolytes, beta-alanine, into the muscles to maximize workout performance (hence the use of Surge Workout Fuel)

  3. Create an insulin spike immediately pre-workout to allow for a rapid transport of amino acids and carbs into the muscle as well as to stimulate blood flow just prior to, and during the initial stages of the workout (hence the use of Surge Recovery)

  4. Provide enough super fast absorbed protein and other performance-enhancing supplements to the muscle during the workout (hence the use of Anaconda)

Basically with your own ‘creation’ you are not doing any of this.

Well, you are spiking insulin, but 40 minutes too early which is even worse than not spiking it at all. And your providing your body with some fast-absorbed protein but without the ‘transport system’ to bring it into the muscle.

In reality you are losing at least 90% of the benefits of the protocol.

166

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Gymjunkie wrote:
Coach,

After reading a few of your recommendations regarding when to take in your solid meal post workout, I have changed my plan a bit.

Last week, I trialed the protocol results leading to a lost a TINY bit of muscle(0.2%) but I did lose 0.6% bf(yes, I’m in a fat loss phase - NO CARBS, very insulin resistant, following CP protocols etc).

LAST WEEKS PLAN:

05:00 Pre Breakfast: 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5g leucine

05:30 Breakfast: 10 Egg white omelet + 50g lean bacon + green veggies

PARAWORKOUT
06:30 Pre workout 2 Scoops White Flood
06:50 Pre workout 15g Casein Hydrolysate
07:00 �¢?? 08:00 WORKOUT
07:30 During Workout: 20g Casein Hydrolysate
08:15 Post workout: 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5g creatine+20g glycine+5g taurine
09:20 Post workout 5-10g leucine
09:30 Post workout 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine

12:00 Lunch: 250g White Meat + Green veggies

15:00 Snack 2: 20g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine

18:00 Dinner: 250g Red Meat + Avocado + Cheese + Salad

21:00 Snack3: 2 Omega 3 Eggs + 2 scoops Miscellar Casein + cream + nuts + 5g taurine + 10g flaxmeal

THIS WEEKS PLAN:

05:00 Pre Breakfast: 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5g leucine

05:30 Breakfast: 10 Egg white omelet + 50g lean bacon + green veggies

PARAWORKOUT
06:30 Pre workout 2 Scoops White Flood
06:50 Pre workout 15g Casein Hydrolysate
07:00 �¢?? 08:00 WORKOUT
07:30 During Workout: 20g Casein Hydrolysate
08:00 Finish workout

09:00 Post workout 30-60g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine

10:00 Lunch: 250g White Meat + Green veggies

13:00 Snack 2: 20g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine

15:30 Snack 3: 20g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine

18:00 Dinner: 250g Red Meat + Avocado + Cheese + Salad

21:00 Snack 4: 2 Omega 3 Eggs + 3 scoops Miscellar Casein + cream + nuts + 5g taurine + 10g flaxmeal

So the only change was moving my lunch closer to postworkout, dropping the immediate post workout shake and adding another pulse - Okay to have 2 pulses in the form of shakes in a row?

I attribute some muscle loss last week to the delayed solid meal post workout which as you can see was 3hr after a postworkout pulse.

THANKS FOR YOU TIME,

GJ

I appreciate your enthusiasm about this, but honestly I don’t really like where it’s going. I did try to bastardize the program a bit by changing some of the elements, but you guys took it to extreme levels. YES CH is one ingredient of Anaconda. But it is far from being the only element in there. Your protocol actually isn’t using ANY of the same elements from my protocol.

It is an incredibly cheapened out version. I would like you to stop right now, not only will you not get the results you believe you could (cheap ingredienrs, missing at least 3/4 of the good stuff) but you will actually give the protocol a bad name.[/quote]

I am a bit confused. A few days ago, you approved saying that it was very solid. The only change I have made since was ensuring my post workout meal was closer to postworkout and adding another pulse.

I am NOT using this protocol to gain max size right now, just to ensure max anabolism whilst dieting and to be honest, it is a easier diet than eating 6-7 meals a day(which I am happy tp switch back to).

If I understand you post correctly, your saying that unless we are using Anaconda (which may be available) its not worth while?

Would it give the protocol a bad name, given that the results wont be the same as if followed to the T? - Not arguing or been smart, just want to understand.

Appreciate your advice,
GJ

167

[quote]Gymjunkie wrote:
If I understand you post correctly, your saying that unless we are using ANACONDA (which may be available) its not worth while?

Would it give the protocol a bad name, given that the results wont be the same as if followed to the T? - Not arguing or been smart, just want to understand.

Appreciate your advice,
GJ[/quote]

Well, not using Anaconda is one of the caveats as it is not available as of now, and may not be because of the sheer cost of production. So we might have to find ways of doing the strategy without it and without losing too much.

But doing the protocol without Anaconda. And doing it without Surge Workout Fuel, FINiBARs and Surge Recovery is another story. Worse case scenario I could see not using the bars if you are on a diet. but the other contain elements that ar crucial to the good workings of the protocol.

The part of your plan that was fine was the during the day pulsing with CH. That’s fine. You are doing a good job at that. But the Frankenstein you tried to create para-workout is a mistake.

If you cannot perform at least 2/3rd of the protocol as it is, might as well skip it entirely. Just go with a normal post-workout shake and use the pulse for the rest of the day.

168

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Gymjunkie wrote:
If I understand you post correctly, your saying that unless we are using ANACONDA (which may be available) its not worth while?

Would it give the protocol a bad name, given that the results wont be the same as if followed to the T? - Not arguing or been smart, just want to understand.

Appreciate your advice,
GJ

Well, not using Anaconda is one of the caveats as it is not available as of now, and may not be because of the sheer cost of production. So we might have to find ways of doing the strategy without it and without losing too much.

But doing the protocol without Anaconda. And doing it without Surge Workout Fuel, FINiBARs and Surge Recovery is another story. Worse case scenario I could see not using the bars if you are on a diet. but the other contain elements that ar crucial to the good workings of the protocol.

The part of your plan that was fine was the during the day pulsing with CH. That’s fine. You are doing a good job at that. But the Frankenstein you tried to create para-workout is a mistake.

If you cannot perform at least 2/3rd of the protocol as it is, might as well skip it entirely. Just go with a normal post-workout shake and use the pulse for the rest of the day.[/quote]

Ahhh, I understand. My query was surrounding the pulsing bit of my diet. I already knew that my PARAWORKOUT was not ideal given no carbs and consiquently not been able to make the most of your recommendations in that regard. I put the above NO carb together to trial and see what the results would be like(figure I couldn’t go backward). Sorry about the misunderstanding.

With PARAWORKOUT, will gear it more toward a regular strategy, until I add carbs back in and then I will use your PARAWORKOUT protocol properly.

Thanks again. ALWAYS appreciate your assistance,
GJ

169

Guess my posts were in the wrong area.

GJ

170

Coach,

I currently do the old post workout shake (whey/dextrose/malto) and i never realy had carbs pre-workout. my meals before the workout are all low carb but having read this thread i feel like i’m missing something by not having carbs pre-workout so i wanted to add a meal containing carbs in it before the wokrout. i cannot follow the protocol that you outlined in the beginning of this thread as i don’t have access to most of the prodcuts (except Surge) nor could i afford it at this stage. what would you recommend having pre-workout? fast absorbed carbs and whey? low GI carbs and slow release protein?..and when how long before my workout would you recommend i eat it?

Thanks

171

CT

Finibars are not available (as far as I’m aware, if anyone disagrees let me know where you’re getting them!) in the UK, I have access to all other Biotest products, could you suggest a replacement for the Finibars? Thanks.

172

Yeh I’m from the UK too. i cant find FINibars or Surge Workout Fuel anywhere. is there any food alternatives maybe?

Also as I am in a cutting phase, would it be a good idea to use this protocol once a week on my carb up day, training my weakest body parts?

appreciate your advice.

thanks.

173

Try googling workoutworld on uk sites for the workout fuel, got 2 tubs in the post today, ordered saturday, pretty tidy.

174

Hi Coach!

For a women trying to lose the last 15 lbs do you still recommend the full 2 scoop serving of Surge. I was doing just 1 scoop right after training, and have just started to drink 1 scoop during training and 1 scoop after. Now I’m questioning if that’s going to be beneficial while still trying to lose fat. Just trying to find out how much and when I should drink the Surge! I’m trying to keep the carbs fairly low.

Thanks!
Sylvia

(Wasn’t sure if I should put this here or in the fat loss thread…sorry if it’s in the wrong place!)

175

Thib,
Am I correct in understanding that you are basically using a basic TKD as your mass template? Keeping CHO down at all times except for a concentrated influx para-workout? If so, do you do this 7 days a week?

Thanks,
DH

176

Coach,

a) This is somewhat hypothetical for everyone but the Biotest employees who have access, but in what type of quantities and how often can supplements like FINiBARs, Surge Workout Fuel, and Anaconda be used without incurring any types of allergy/intolerance issues? We often here of not consuming any type of food in too large a quantity or too often, but do these supplements fall outside that realm?

b) With the protocols you and the Biotest folks are developing, would these be beneficial to all trainees at any level of development and experience or are they somewhat dependent on your current “level?” Are these protocols akin to advanced training methods which are considered a rocket launcher while some trainees might simply need a hand gun for the time being?

Thank you for your time and help, coach.

177

Hi,

I find the timing protocol very interesting. I’d like to learn more about casein hydrolysate’s properties but I can’t seem to find many studies on its absorption rate or anabolic properties. Most studies seem to be dealing with bovine problems or allergies. If you keep any list of references I would appreciate it if you could share some related to CH!

This is the only close hit I’ve found so far - Silk DBA, et al. Jejunal absorption of an amino acid mixture simulating casein and an enzymic hydrolysate of casein prepared for oral administration to normal adults. British Journal of Nutrition (1975), 33:95-100.

It found that “there was thus a 29 % increase in total alpha-NH2N absorption from the enzymic hydrolysate compared with that from the equivalent amino acid mixture. … Thus, if maximally effective absorption is required in a clinical situation, for example, in the treatment of extensive small intestinal resection or malabsorption there would appear to be a significant advantage in administering protein hydrolysates which consist of oligopeptides as well as amino acids rather than amino acid mixtures.”

Thanks for all the information so far.

178

CT

Would you recommend this same protocol and the amino/protein pulsing for a sprinter or other athlete who doesn’t really need to add any weight? Or would you modify the protocol in any way?

Thanks

179

Thibs,

I got caught in a jam and have to skip a workout after pre-mixing 3 shakes- Surge Workout Fuel, Surge Recovery, and CH. Will all 3 of those keep in the refrigerator for 24 hours?

Thanks.

180

In the past, you’ve indicated that taking Vitamin C post-workout can decrease cortisol levels, but taking too much can be a bad thing. How do you chose the proper dosage of Vitamin C to take post-workout to get the cortisol-lowering benefits without any of the drawbacks?

Thanks.