Coach,
For those who were already taking creatine you didn’t seem to mind keeping it their regimen, but is it still important to use even with all the new Biotest advancements?
Do you include creatine in your pre- and post-workout supplementation or do Alpha-GPC, Spike, and Power Drive suffice for strength? If so, how much?
Thanks so much for taking the time to answer so many questions.
-Trey
Thib, you’ve mentioned that you haven’t changed much in regards to your nutrition (not inc. peri-workout supplementation) except the addition of some fruit.
When dieting down on low carb diets, do you feel fruit have their place at all? e.g. immediately before workout with some fast digesting protein? or would you recommend no fruit during low-carb dieting?
Thank you!
[quote]tcarlock wrote:
Coach,
For those who were already taking creatine you didn’t seem to mind keeping it their regimen, but is it still important to use even with all the new Biotest advancements?
Do you include creatine in your pre- and post-workout supplementation or do Alpha-GPC, Spike, and Power Drive suffice for strength? If so, how much?
Thanks so much for taking the time to answer so many questions.
-Trey[/quote]
Anaconda has a form of creatine built-in
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
retailboy wrote:
Thibs,
The one scientific theory behind this new pre-workout nutrition you have presented has been that catecholamines blunt the effects of insulin - correct me if I’m wrong please.
My 7+ years of formal education in the biology/clinical sector has taught me no such direct pathway. I have actually been taught that with increase catecholamines your muscles increase the uptake of glucose which improves the effects of insulin.
Since it seems T-Nation’s next big supplement and your new pre/intra/post workout nutrition protocol seem to hinge greatly on the evidence behind them - I was hoping you had ANY type of scientific backing for either instead of just anecdotal (I understand that science is behind in this area of research but still there should be research that supports some of the basics of your protocol - even if it is as simple as by what pathway the catecholamines blunt insulin).
Side note: I have been getting better results over the past two years since I’ve switched to ‘high’ pre and intra carbohydrate intake from the typical post-workout protocol.
Thank you for your time Thibs!
David
Well, since you have been witnessing the powerful effects yourself, why the need for a study?
i: 10.1172/JCI107887.
PMCID: PMC301695
Copyright notice
Glucagon Secretion from the Perfused Rat Pancreas STUDIES WITH GLUCOSE AND CATECHOLAMINES
Gordon C. Weir, Stephen D. Knowlton, and Donald B. Martin
Diabetes Unit and Department of Medicine, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts 02114
Diabetes Unit Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts 02114
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
Abstract
The isolated in situ perfused rat pancreas was used to study glucose and catecholamine control of glucagon secretion, and to investigate the possible role of endogenous cyclic AMP as a mediator of this secretory process. When perfusate glucose was acutely dropped from 100 to 25 mg/100 ml, glucagon was released in a biphasic pattern with an early spike and a later plateau-like response. 300 mg/100 ml glucose suppressed glucagon secretion to near the detection limit of the radioimmunoassay (15 pg/ml). When perfusate glucose was dropped from 300 to 25 mg/100 ml, a delayed, relatively small peak occurred suggesting persisting alpha cell suppression by prior high glucose exposure. 2-Deoxy d-glucose stimulated glucagon secretion and inhibited insulin secretion.
Glucagon was secreted in a biphasic pattern in response to both 2.7 Ã??? 10-7 M epinephrine and norepinephrine. The glucagon response to epinephrine was markedly suppressed by glucose at 300 mg/100 ml, and the biphasic response pattern was obliterated. Glucose evoked a two-phase insulin secretory pattern, and the second phase was markedly and rapidly inhibited by epinephrine. Pancreases were perfused with glucose at 300 mg/100 ml which was then lowered to 80 mg/100 ml. 5 min later, epinephrine was infused and definite blunting of the first-phase spike occurred. 10 mM theophylline produced modest rapid uniphasic stimulation of glucagon release, and, in addition, caused enhancement of epinephrine-stimulated glucagon release. An inhibitory influence upon epinephrine-stimulated glucagon was observed as well. Insulin secretion was stimulated by 10 mM theophylline, and this stimulation was inhibited by epinephrine.
You get the point…[/quote]
Thibs,
Thanks for the response.
I was wondering the scientific backing because I believe if someone is going to have a product and put so much into advertising, production, etc. that there should be some scientific support (I give my hats off to T-Nation for doing such a great job with this with all their products). But I haven’t seen any support for your short response in an earlier post on catecholamines - I actually have conducted studies that assumed and been taught the opposite. But thank you for pointing out to me these studies they definitely show the correlation you spoke of. There is research that they actually raise the glucose in the blood stream.
The one problem I have is the half-life of catecholamines are only 40~ seconds. Do you believe the adrenals continue to produce them even 10 minutes after a workout (when someone wold take a post-workout nutrition)?
Thanks Coach!
Dave
[quote]retailboy wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
retailboy wrote:
Thibs,
The one scientific theory behind this new pre-workout nutrition you have presented has been that catecholamines blunt the effects of insulin - correct me if I’m wrong please.
My 7+ years of formal education in the biology/clinical sector has taught me no such direct pathway. I have actually been taught that with increase catecholamines your muscles increase the uptake of glucose which improves the effects of insulin.
Since it seems T-Nation’s next big supplement and your new pre/intra/post workout nutrition protocol seem to hinge greatly on the evidence behind them - I was hoping you had ANY type of scientific backing for either instead of just anecdotal (I understand that science is behind in this area of research but still there should be research that supports some of the basics of your protocol - even if it is as simple as by what pathway the catecholamines blunt insulin).
Side note: I have been getting better results over the past two years since I’ve switched to ‘high’ pre and intra carbohydrate intake from the typical post-workout protocol.
Thank you for your time Thibs!
David
Well, since you have been witnessing the powerful effects yourself, why the need for a study?
i: 10.1172/JCI107887.
PMCID: PMC301695
Copyright notice
Glucagon Secretion from the Perfused Rat Pancreas STUDIES WITH GLUCOSE AND CATECHOLAMINES
Gordon C. Weir, Stephen D. Knowlton, and Donald B. Martin
Diabetes Unit and Department of Medicine, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts 02114
Diabetes Unit Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts 02114
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
Abstract
The isolated in situ perfused rat pancreas was used to study glucose and catecholamine control of glucagon secretion, and to investigate the possible role of endogenous cyclic AMP as a mediator of this secretory process. When perfusate glucose was acutely dropped from 100 to 25 mg/100 ml, glucagon was released in a biphasic pattern with an early spike and a later plateau-like response. 300 mg/100 ml glucose suppressed glucagon secretion to near the detection limit of the radioimmunoassay (15 pg/ml). When perfusate glucose was dropped from 300 to 25 mg/100 ml, a delayed, relatively small peak occurred suggesting persisting alpha cell suppression by prior high glucose exposure. 2-Deoxy d-glucose stimulated glucagon secretion and inhibited insulin secretion.
Glucagon was secreted in a biphasic pattern in response to both 2.7 Ã??? 10-7 M epinephrine and norepinephrine. The glucagon response to epinephrine was markedly suppressed by glucose at 300 mg/100 ml, and the biphasic response pattern was obliterated. Glucose evoked a two-phase insulin secretory pattern, and the second phase was markedly and rapidly inhibited by epinephrine. Pancreases were perfused with glucose at 300 mg/100 ml which was then lowered to 80 mg/100 ml. 5 min later, epinephrine was infused and definite blunting of the first-phase spike occurred. 10 mM theophylline produced modest rapid uniphasic stimulation of glucagon release, and, in addition, caused enhancement of epinephrine-stimulated glucagon release. An inhibitory influence upon epinephrine-stimulated glucagon was observed as well. Insulin secretion was stimulated by 10 mM theophylline, and this stimulation was inhibited by epinephrine.
You get the point…
Thibs,
Thanks for the response.
I was wondering the scientific backing because I believe if someone is going to have a product and put so much into advertising, production, etc. that there should be some scientific support (I give my hats off to T-Nation for doing such a great job with this with all their products). But I haven’t seen any support for your short response in an earlier post on catecholamines - I actually have conducted studies that assumed and been taught the opposite. But thank you for pointing out to me these studies they definitely show the correlation you spoke of. There is research that they actually raise the glucose in the blood stream.
The one problem I have is the half-life of catecholamines are only 40~ seconds. Do you believe the adrenals continue to produce them even 10 minutes after a workout (when someone wold take a post-workout nutrition)?
Thanks Coach!
Dave[/quote]
Oh yes… they stay elevated for quite some time after a workout. And the more intense, the longer the elevation. Obviously it varies from one individual to the other, but generally they stay up until heart rate is back to resting levels.
I have some data about this somewhere and will try to dig it up.
From: J Appl Physiol 57: 154-159, 1984;
8750-7587/84
Effects of intense exercise training on plasma catecholamines in coronary patients
A higher plasma norepinephrine level was attained at maximal exercise after training (2,049 ± 654 before vs. 3,408 ± 1,454 pg/ml after, P < 0.025)
From: Appl Physiol 89: 1793-1803, 2000;
8750-7587/00
Vol. 89, Issue 5, 1793-1803, November 2000
Skeletal muscle metabolic and ionic adaptations during intense exercise following sprint training in humans
Biopsies were taken at rest and immediately postexercise. After training in PostMatch, muscle and plasma lactate (Lac) and H+ concentrations, anaerobic ATP production rate, glycogen and ATP degradation, IMP accumulation, and peak plasma K+ and norepinephrine concentrations were reduced (P < 0.05). In PostExh, time to exhaustion was 21% greater than PreExh (P < 0.001); however, muscle Lac accumulation was unchanged; muscle H+ concentration, ATP degradation, IMP accumulation, and anaerobic ATP production rate were reduced; and plasma Lac, norepinephrine, and H+ concentrations were higher (P < 0.05).
Hey Coach 
I just wanted to ask for Post workout im sticking to Protein and Fats, just wanted to ask, are cashew nuts a viable option? They have carbs in it but about a gram and a bit more fat compared, are these alright?
How does this peri-workout nutrition look:
-15 WO: Start sipping on Surge workout fuel mixed with 5g leucine
During workout out: continue to sip on Surge workout fuel and leucine
PWO: 60g Waxy maize starch, 30g whey protein isolate, 5g leucine, 5g creatine monohydrate
30-45 Minutes Later: PWO Meal Usually whole wheat pasta with lean ground beef
I don’t have too much money to spend on supps and this isn’t to harsh on my wallet. lol Is it alright?
With the recent changes/simplifications to the peri-workout protocol, could you please re-cap what it would look like for someone using your carb cycling approach or a TKD for fat loss. Such as how much carbs before/during training and what types to be best, since the old post workout carb-up seems to be a somewhat outdated concept. Using the example for a 200lb male with 14% bf and without the use of MAG-10 or Anaconda but with already available supplements. Thanks:
I’ve seen in other threads the statement attributed to you that one should not attempt the Smolov squat cycle without “assistance.” I haven’t seen where you’ve written that. If that is in fact your opinion, I wonder if anything in the recent peri-workout nutrition protocols changes that opinion.
I’ve injured my shoulder, and am thinking about shutting down the BP for a while, and figured I might as well put as much on my squat as I possibly can in the meantime. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciate.
Coach,
For the past month or so i have been using the following protocol…
-30-40 min WO: 2 scoops SWF
-10-15 WO: 1 or 1 1/2 scoops Surge Recovery
During WO: 1 or 1 1/2 scoops Surge Recovery
30-45 WO: 2 scoops Whey
90-120 solid meal
This protocol has been simple yet effective while waiting for anaconda and MAG-10 to be released…My question is do you see anything i could improve upon with this protocol? I’d like to stick with these supps until i can do the protocol with Finibars Anaconda and MAG-10. Thanks for your time coach
[quote]nycsfinest wrote:
Coach,
For the past month or so i have been using the following protocol…
-30-40 min WO: 2 scoops SWF
-10-15 WO: 1 or 1 1/2 scoops Surge Recovery
During WO: 1 or 1 1/2 scoops Surge Recovery
30-45 WO: 2 scoops Whey
90-120 solid meal
This protocol has been simple yet effective while waiting for anaconda and MAG-10 to be released…My question is do you see anything i could improve upon with this protocol? I’d like to stick with these supps until i can do the protocol with Finibars Anaconda and MAG-10. Thanks for your time coach[/quote]
Looks pretty similar to mine except I use CH during and post instead of the Surge Recovery and whey. I have had great gains with my protocol. I am not CT, but I would say for the supps you have thats a pretty good protocol. The only thing that might help is the CH, since it absorbs quicker than the Surge Recovery.
Also CT, any idea on when MAG-10 and Anaconda are coming out? I dont want to order more CH that tastes like puke unless its gonna be a month or more wait.
Any idea on the program as well? I know you cant tell us for sure, but I was under the assumption that it was going to be released six weeks or so after the intro video. I understand the needs to tweak and perfect everything, but its been 12 weeks or so.
I am more interested in the supplement release more so than anything, as I already implement the principles into my own training. Either way good shit, I enjoy your training philosophies and principles.
[quote]traaviz wrote:
nycsfinest wrote:
Coach,
For the past month or so i have been using the following protocol…
-30-40 min WO: 2 scoops SWF
-10-15 WO: 1 or 1 1/2 scoops Surge Recovery
During WO: 1 or 1 1/2 scoops Surge Recovery
30-45 WO: 2 scoops Whey
90-120 solid meal
This protocol has been simple yet effective while waiting for anaconda and MAG-10 to be released…My question is do you see anything i could improve upon with this protocol? I’d like to stick with these supps until i can do the protocol with Finibars Anaconda and MAG-10. Thanks for your time coach
Looks pretty similar to mine except I use CH during and post instead of the Surge Recovery and whey. I have had great gains with my protocol. I am not CT, but I would say for the supps you have thats a pretty good protocol. The only thing that might help is the CH, since it absorbs quicker than the Surge Recovery.
Also CT, any idea on when MAG-10 and Anaconda are coming out? I dont want to order more CH that tastes like puke unless its gonna be a month or more wait.
Any idea on the program as well? I know you cant tell us for sure, but I was under the assumption that it was going to be released six weeks or so after the intro video. I understand the needs to tweak and perfect everything, but its been 12 weeks or so.
I am more interested in the supplement release more so than anything, as I already implement the principles into my own training. Either way good shit, I enjoy your training philosophies and principles. [/quote]
How many grams of CHY are you ingesting during and post workout?
Also, the protocol that I use is also very similar to the above mentioned and I find that is is effective
[quote]Serd wrote:
traaviz wrote:
nycsfinest wrote:
Coach,
For the past month or so i have been using the following protocol…
-30-40 min WO: 2 scoops SWF
-10-15 WO: 1 or 1 1/2 scoops Surge Recovery
During WO: 1 or 1 1/2 scoops Surge Recovery
30-45 WO: 2 scoops Whey
90-120 solid meal
This protocol has been simple yet effective while waiting for anaconda and MAG-10 to be released…My question is do you see anything i could improve upon with this protocol? I’d like to stick with these supps until i can do the protocol with Finibars Anaconda and MAG-10. Thanks for your time coach
Looks pretty similar to mine except I use CH during and post instead of the Surge Recovery and whey. I have had great gains with my protocol. I am not CT, but I would say for the supps you have thats a pretty good protocol. The only thing that might help is the CH, since it absorbs quicker than the Surge Recovery.
Also CT, any idea on when MAG-10 and Anaconda are coming out? I dont want to order more CH that tastes like puke unless its gonna be a month or more wait.
Any idea on the program as well? I know you cant tell us for sure, but I was under the assumption that it was going to be released six weeks or so after the intro video. I understand the needs to tweak and perfect everything, but its been 12 weeks or so.
I am more interested in the supplement release more so than anything, as I already implement the principles into my own training. Either way good shit, I enjoy your training philosophies and principles.
How many grams of CHY are you ingesting during and post workout?
Also, the protocol that I use is also very similar to the above mentioned and I find that is is effective
[/quote]
I have tweaked it a few times just according to what I find suits me better. Right now I am doing the following:
30 min - 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
30 min - liquid Alpha-GPC
15 min - 2 scoops Surge Recovery
during workout - 20g of CH
1 hr post - 12g CH
90 min post - solid meal
I also take 12g of CH upon waking in the morning then consume my first meal about 15 minutes later.
Coach,
First off I am a MASSIVE fan of your work and research.
Secondly…
I am a Uni student with limited funds… I am also spending every damn hour studying just to keep up with my course (Physics) so finding a job is going to be tough.
I need to start dropping fat in the near future and would love to incorporate your protocol however the only things I have at my disposal are:
Surge Recovery
Grow Whey
Generic creatine monohydrate
How would the following protocoll sound?:
-90 mins: P+F meal
-15 mins: 1.5 scoops Surge Recovery, 5g creatine monohydrate
during workout: sip 1.5 scoops Surge Recovery
+30 mins: Grow Whey, 5g creatine monohydrate
+60 mins: P+F meal
I lift late in the evening (about 8pm) which is why things are a little squashed together.
Training would as (or similar to) destroying fat.
Rest of diet would be minimal carbs.
With all the talk about the original protocol using SWF and SR, why does the new Anaconda Protocol not contain either of those products?
And with the success of the original protocol, why is there even an Anaconda Protocol? sorry if this seems obvious, I’m just not seeing the reasoning behind the original success along with the new protocol.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
samdan wrote:
What’s the recommended workout nutrition for a fellow on the Anabolic Diet who can only take in about 30g carb TOTAL on most of my workout days?
Right now I do:
W-15: Start drinking Spike Shotgun (16 oz)
W: Finish Shotgun and drink water
Basic, I know. I’m usually eating some kind of meal around an hour after my workout, usually just meat and broccoli/spinach. Should I eat sooner? Should I use a Metabolic Drive or Grow shake?
It actually will not do much for you as far as putting muscle on your frame and recovering faster.
Anaconda and MAG-10 will both be carb-free, so the protocol of using 1 scoop of each pre-training and 1 scoop of each during the training can be used.[/quote]
Okay, so it’s officially Iron Christmas and I just ordered the Anaconda Protocol but took out the Finibars since I’m doing anabolic diet, but figured Alpha-GPC would be worth trying. Plus it has a cool bottle!
Just had a few quick questions… Anaconda calls for 5ml of flavoring, and MAG-10 calls for 2.5ml, do you find just using 7.5ml with a scoop of each to be good, or it needs more/less?
So given the fact that I work out in the morning, have some eggs/bacon 1-2 hours before I work out, and make sure that I’m up for about 2.5 hours before working out, how does this protocol look?
W-90: Shot of Alpha-GPC (basically take it with breakfast)
W-15: 1 Scoop Anaconda + 1 Scoop MAG-10
W: Drink the Anaconda/MAG-10 slowly from 15-mins prior to about 15 minutes into the workout?
W+15: 1 Scoop Anaconda + 1 Scoop MAG-10
Will this protocol make me hyuuge and go on to cure cancer and kill adult elephants with one kick?
Final question… If, for financial reasons, I want to reduce to 1 scoop of Anaconda/MAG-10 per workout, would starting just before, and trying to finish right after be the way to go? Or should I just prime my body at the start and let it carry over to the end?
Sorry to have so many questions, I just want to be the biggest guy I can be and I turn to the smartest guys I can find. Thanks in advance for your advice.
So I just decided to buy the Anaconda protocol, but seeing as theres only enough for 16 workouts, and I train 6 times every 8 days, if I do the full protocol at every session I will run out very quickly.
Are there times when I can use just part of the Protocol? For example, if I’m trying to bring up my leg strength right now, can I use the full protocol on leg days and something else for the other days?
[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:
With all the talk about the original protocol using SWF and SR, why does the new Anaconda Protocol not contain either of those products?
And with the success of the original protocol, why is there even an Anaconda Protocol? sorry if this seems obvious, I’m just not seeing the reasoning behind the original success along with the new protocol.[/quote]
Not 100% sure, but I’m going to take a stab at that.
SWF
Carbs (for quick, sustainable energy)-now only from FINiBARs
Citrulline malate-Anaconda and Mag10 both
Leucine-Anaconda and Mag10 both
Beta Alanine-Anaconda
VitC-no
SR
Carbs (to spike insulin)- N/A, Thibs has said that the ingredients in Anaconda and Mag10 spike insulin without carbs
Protein-no more WHY, now CHY
Leucine-in the Anaconda and Mag10
DL-Phenylalanine- N/A
I think that covers everything, no?
Also, I am wonder Thibs, before you had recommended on the old protocol like
1 of everything=minimal
2 of everything=better
3 of everything=optimal
Is this the same for the new protocol?
And if one cannot afford the full package, is there a ‘bastardized’ version based on the old and the now new ingredients?
Thanks
[quote]gabex wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
With all the talk about the original protocol using SWF and SR, why does the new Anaconda Protocol not contain either of those products?
And with the success of the original protocol, why is there even an Anaconda Protocol? sorry if this seems obvious, I’m just not seeing the reasoning behind the original success along with the new protocol.
Not 100% sure, but I’m going to take a stab at that.
SWF
Carbs (for quick, sustainable energy)-now only from FINiBARs
Citrulline malate-Anaconda and Mag10 both
Leucine-Anaconda and Mag10 both
Beta Alanine-Anaconda
VitC-no
SR
Carbs (to spike insulin)- N/A, Thibs has said that the ingredients in Anaconda and Mag10 spike insulin without carbs
Protein-no more WHY, not CHY
Leucine-in the Anaconda and Mag10
DL-Phenylalanine- N/A
I think that covers everything, no?
Also, I am wonder Thibs, before you had recommended on the old protocol like
1 of everything=minimal
2 of everything=better
3 of everything=optimal
Is this the same for the new protocol?
And if one cannot afford the full package, is there a ‘bastardized’ version based on the old and the now new ingredients?
Thanks
[/quote]
I realize there are some carry over ingredients, however for one SWF and SR would be cheaper than Anaconda and MAG-10 (though I realize they are missing creatine), but the older protocol included SWF, SR, along with Anaconda and MAG-10.
Were SWF and SR just nixed to help reduce cost of the protocol?