Questions About Peri-Workout Nutrition

Training
81

Coach,

Would you mind giving me an analogy or give me an idea of how much more effective this protocol has the potential to be using Whey Hydro instead of Biotest Grow!? I need to get more Grow! or the other and it’s a challenge from reading all this to tell how far apart they are on the continuum.

I have Surge Recovery, but I don’t think or feel my body is ready for all that you recommend of it. I have worked hard over the last 18 months to become more insulin sensitive but I have over 20 years of crappy eating and elevated chronic cortisol to overcome:) Thus, I am trying to be patient and realistic.

Also, if anyone has any recommendations on Whey Hydro, please message me.

Thanks Coach!

82

A few questions regarding para-workout nutrition for me. First, I play college football and our summer program is set up as such: Mondays/Thursdays speed workout (30-45 min) followed by weights (60-90 min)
Tuesdays/Fridays weights (60-90 min) followed by conditioning (30 min)
Wednesdays Skills and Drills-on the field (fairly light workouts since I am a punter) (the first few sessions are GPP conditioning circuits lasting 30-60 min)

How would the para-workout protocol change on each day? I do not really have access to my own supplements during to sip on Surge Recovery for example. We have access to Gatorade, water, Gatorade Nutrition Shakes (milk protein isolate based (20 g) with carbs (54 g) coming mostly from sucrose syrup and maltodextrin), and Muscle Milk Collegiate shakes (18 g milk protein isolate and 28 g carbs from maltodextrin). How would you recommend using any of these available (aka free) supps if at all or should I just stick to the Surge WF, Recovery, FINiBARs, etc para-workout?

Finally, I workout in the morning group at 630, and will wake around 530. Would this change your recommendations at all?

Thanks for all your advice on these topics. It has been fascinating to read and think about.

83

[quote]shoelessjones wrote:
Coach,

Would you mind giving me an analogy or give me an idea of how much more effective this protocol has the potential to be using Whey Hydro instead of Biotest Grow!? I need to get more Grow! or the other and it’s a challenge from reading all this to tell how far apart they are on the continuum.

I have Surge Recovery, but I don’t think or feel my body is ready for all that you recommend of it. I have worked hard over the last 18 months to become more insulin sensitive but I have over 20 years of crappy eating and elevated chronic cortisol to overcome:) Thus, I am trying to be patient and realistic.

Also, if anyone has any recommendations on Whey Hydro, please message me.

Thanks Coach! [/quote]

  1. Whey ISOLATE is actually not more effective than whey CONCENTRATE for pulsing, unless the concentrate is less than 80% pure. The speed of absorption for both will be roughly the same.

  2. The effectiveness of a pulse is highly dependant on the speed of absorption of the protein used. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the best, Casein hydrolysate would be a 10, whey hydrolysate would be an 8, whey isolate or concentrate would be a 5 or a 6, soy protein would be a 4, egg protein would be a 3 or a 4, miscellar casein would be a 2, sodium caseinate would be a 1.

84

[quote]Jelena Abbou wrote:
Hi Chris,

Marko will be doing your protocol, also I had him on your shoulder workout (3x a week)
Should he use Protocol 2 (priority workouts) 3 times a week?

Also should I be trying Anaconda if I don’t want to get any bigger?[/quote]

We will be sending you a specific protocol. Anaconda will be part of it, it’s the FINiBAR and Surge recovery that will be in lower doses.

85

[quote]MontisVerdes wrote:
CT,

Any problems taking Rez-V with Leucine first thing in the AM? Does that still count as empty stomach?

Thanks.[/quote]

I see no problem with it.

86

[quote]FERCHCORE wrote:
CT- Could Gatorade be used to add more carbs to the para work-out. If so, where? Add some to Surge Workout Fuel, or maybe with Surge Recovery?[/quote]

Gatorade? It contains high-fructose corn syrup and fructose. Two bad choices for glycogen replenishment. You’d be better off with table sugar!

87

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
shoelessjones wrote:
Coach,

Would you mind giving me an analogy or give me an idea of how much more effective this protocol has the potential to be using Whey Hydro instead of Biotest Grow!? I need to get more Grow! or the other and it’s a challenge from reading all this to tell how far apart they are on the continuum.

I have Surge Recovery, but I don’t think or feel my body is ready for all that you recommend of it. I have worked hard over the last 18 months to become more insulin sensitive but I have over 20 years of crappy eating and elevated chronic cortisol to overcome:) Thus, I am trying to be patient and realistic.

Also, if anyone has any recommendations on Whey Hydro, please message me.

Thanks Coach!

  1. Whey ISOLATE is actually not more effective than whey CONCENTRATE for pulsing, unless the concentrate is less than 80% pure. The speed of absorption for both will be roughly the same.

  2. The effectiveness of a pulse is highly dependant on the speed of absorption of the protein used. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the best, Casein hydrolysate would be a 10, whey hydrolysate would be an 8, whey isolate or concentrate would be a 5 or a 6, soy protein would be a 4, egg protein would be a 3 or a 4, miscellar casein would be a 2, sodium caseinate would be a 1.[/quote]

Thanks coach. I was only trying to get the difference between Grow! and Whey Hydro. Really appreciate your time.

88

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
FERCHCORE wrote:
CT- Could Gatorade be used to add more carbs to the para work-out. If so, where? Add some to Surge Workout Fuel, or maybe with Surge Recovery?

Gatorade? It contains high-fructose corn syrup and fructose. Two bad choices for glycogen replenishment. You’d be better off with table sugar![/quote]

But seriously… For someone on a very restricted budget, would table sugar work? It would certainly not be optimal, but I am not going for my pro card either. I guess that at some point, we have to make compromises. Or would you have any better suggestions?

Thanks!

89

Christian,

Why is Surge Workout Fuel prescribed so far in advance of the workout? Isn’t it fast-acting and supposed to be sipped during the workout?

Opposite question with the Surge Recovery and FINIBAR… why not after the workout when the fast-acting stuff isn’t as necessary? Instead you seem to be alternating btw Workout Fuel and Recovery? Where did this come from?

Where does the Poliquin protocol of taking 40 grams BCAAs during the workout fit in with this? Has he still been doing that?

Lastly, have you had any success with Alpha Male? I don’t recall you talking about it. I was thinking of taking 3 caps 2X/day. Sorry that it doesn’t apply to this topic, just thought I’d throw it in there.

My proposed/simplified version:

1 hour Pre Workout: Alpha GPC

30 min continuing through workout: Sip 3 scoops of Surge Workout Fuel

Post Workout: Surge Recovery

Post-Post Workout: Surge Recovery

Post-Post-Post Workout: Solid Meal

Would this work as well?
Thank you very much,
Doug

90

Thibs, got a few quick questions I thought would be interesting/ useful…

  1. What would be the proper way to set up a para-workout protocol for someone in a fat-loss phase using low carbs?(specifically your Get Jacked program, even though I know you are still experimenting at the moment)

  2. Are all the carbs during the para-workout okay to ingest even in a fat-loss phase? (considering this is the only time carbs are being ingested)

  3. Does the protocol(s) change if the the weight training session is followed by a cardio session immediately afterwards?

91

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
FERCHCORE wrote:
CT- Could Gatorade be used to add more carbs to the para work-out. If so, where? Add some to Surge Workout Fuel, or maybe with Surge Recovery?

Gatorade? It contains high-fructose corn syrup and fructose. Two bad choices for glycogen replenishment. You’d be better off with table sugar![/quote]

Yeah, in the premixed version, that’s true. But, I’m talking about the powder form. It lists it’s ingredients as Sucrose, Dextrose, citric acid, salt, sodium citrate. That make a difference?

92

[quote]FERCHCORE wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
FERCHCORE wrote:
CT- Could Gatorade be used to add more carbs to the para work-out. If so, where? Add some to Surge Workout Fuel, or maybe with Surge Recovery?

Gatorade? It contains high-fructose corn syrup and fructose. Two bad choices for glycogen replenishment. You’d be better off with table sugar!

Yeah, in the premixed version, that’s true. But, I’m talking about the powder form. It lists it’s ingredients as Sucrose, Dextrose, citric acid, salt, sodium citrate. That make a difference?[/quote]

Powdered form is pretty good for glucose replenishment, but why not just save yourself a lot of money and order a tub of dextrose or maltodextrin? You’re getting ripped off with Gatorade! Just

93

Coach, how would this set-up be for now?

15min Pre-Workout 1-Serving Surge Workout Fuel+Creatine

During Workout 1-Serving Surge Recovery

15-20min Post-Workout 1-Serving Surge Recovery+Creatine

I’m really interested in the full protocol when i have everything available. I would imagine there would be virtually no cravings for sweets while on this type of plan either which would be a nice side effect

94

Hey Coach Thibs,

I’m a dude on a tight budget that trains first thing in the morning. I take 2 scoops of Surge Recovery upon rising and 2 more during (a gulp after training a muscle group) and the remainder after my workout. I also drink a Gatorade+water mix (guess I should stop depending on your recommendation to the other dude) during training. About an hour later I’ll have a Metabolic Drive shake in a berry + grapefruit juice smoothie.

Throughout the day I alternate solid meals with Metabolic Drive shakes either in a berry smoothie or with a handful of nuts.

My goals are to get stronger, prevent muscle loss (gain some muscle if not too unrealistic), and promote fat loss. Anything I can add or rearrange for optimal gains?

I currently follow a 2 on 1 off weekend off upper/lower split. Each lifting session takes about 40 min and I follow it with 20-25 min of interval runs. I also do a short 30 minute boxing workout about 3 times a week after work.

Many thanks in advance!

95

[quote]cujoke31 wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
FERCHCORE wrote:
CT- Could Gatorade be used to add more carbs to the para work-out. If so, where? Add some to Surge Workout Fuel, or maybe with Surge Recovery?

Gatorade? It contains high-fructose corn syrup and fructose. Two bad choices for glycogen replenishment. You’d be better off with table sugar!

But seriously… For someone on a very restricted budget, would table sugar work? It would certainly not be optimal, but I am not going for my pro card either. I guess that at some point, we have to make compromises. Or would you have any better suggestions?

Thanks![/quote]

Actually it would be an acceptable choice 15 minutes before the workout as it would send insulin through the roof.

96

[quote]Professor Chaos wrote:
Christian,

Why is Surge Workout Fuel prescribed so far in advance of the workout? Isn’t it fast-acting and supposed to be sipped during the workout?[/quote]

Actually the carbs in WORKOUT FUEL are very low glycemic and rather slowly absorbed (rice oligodextrin and palatinose). The original recommendation regarding workout fuel were to ingest half of it 30 minutes before your workout and the other half during… but that was based on test with endurance athletes.

The purpose of workout fuel is to load the muscle cell with carbs, water, phosphates, electrolytes, beta-alanine and other ingredients to maximize workout performance. It needs a certain time to have all of that transported into the muscles.

[quote]Professor Chaos wrote:
Opposite question with the Surge Recovery and FINIBAR… why not after the workout when the fast-acting stuff isn’t as necessary? Instead you seem to be alternating btw Workout Fuel and Recovery? Where did this come from? [/quote]

With the new protocol we use RECOVERY (we should change that name… maybe SURGE PRIMER) to jack up insulin levels right before the workout. High insulin + a lot of nutrients in the blood + increased blood flow to the muscles due to exercise = extreme anabolism.

[quote]Professor Chaos wrote:
Where does the Poliquin protocol of taking 40 grams BCAAs during the workout fit in with this? Has he still been doing that? [/quote]

Maybe he is still doing it, I don’t know. But recent studies have shown that taking BCAAs during the workout isn’t actually effective, it is better to take the dose 30-45 minutes prior to the workout to get the full effect.

But with the current protocol I see that pretty much as a waste. The leucine in workout fuel will do everything that the BCAAs would do for protein synthesis stimulation. The amino acids from the stuff you take prior and during the workout also more than replace BCAAs in that regard and the added carbs provide the anti-catabolic effect that BCAAs might provide.

[quote]Professor Chaos wrote:
Lastly, have you had any success with Alpha Male? I don’t recall you talking about it. I was thinking of taking 3 caps 2X/day. Sorry that it doesn’t apply to this topic, just thought I’d throw it in there.[/quote]

I do get a libido-enhancing effect from it, but not much else. But my natural testosterone levels are already at the upper normal limits.

97

Great, So BCAA during the workout are no good anymore?

98

Christian,

Thank you for your response. Makes sense.

Since the two “active” ingredients in FINibar that we’ve been discussing (palatinose and rice oligodextrin) are also in Workout Fuel, wouldn’t using the two together be a bit redundant? What is the value added from the Finibar not to be found in the Workout Fuel?

Just trying to make the protocol a bit more user friendly before I place my order.

Thank you,
Doug

99

Thib,

If choosing to do some low-intensity energy systems work (no more than 30-60 minutes) 1st thing in the A. M., would 5g leucine be sufficient to protect muscle and have little impact on fat burning?

With a lot of the talk on the developing protocols for maximizing anabolism, I’ve been wondering what the best ways to customize intake around various types of ESW sessions so as to maintain as much muscle as possible while having little to no impact on fat burning.

The power of a lot of Biotest’s supplements and the ability to train like a madman during sessions would seem to indicate that these supplements should be favored rather than avoided when seeking to maximize fat loss. But I was still wondering if the leucine option would be enough or falling short with low intensity stuff.

100

Thib,

I and two other guys are about to embark on the super-accumulation program that Poliquin outlined, and suggestions on supplements during it and extra recovery nutrition? currently i’ve planned on the following
pre workout- 1 scoop Surgeworkout Fuel
Intra- 40 grams of BCAAs+10 grams of Glutamine, 10 grams of carnosine
Post-40 grams of whey Hydrolsyate+15 grams of Leucine+ 40g glutamine, 15 grams of Glycine, 5 grams of Lysine,
1 serving of powerdrive,1serving of superfood

anything you would suggest I add or cut out?