Hi Coach
i am allergic to all nuts and was wondering what you would recommend as the best substitution for the FINiBAR
[quote]MAF14 wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Loaded-Guns wrote:
Thank you for the reply Coach,
so obviously liquids are the key. What about a dextrose and/or malto mix? And if they are somewhat practical, how many grams would be ideal? Thank you Coach
Dextrose would work. 50-75g would be the minimum to get a good effect. Some go up to 200g once a week!!!. But Iād personally recommend to start at 50-75g and work up from there if necessary.
what would the timing for Dextrose look like? 45 minutes prior to the workout?[/quote]
been answered before, 15min pre is ideal, no more than 25min pre to avoid going hypo during the workout.
[quote]platosbrainchild wrote:
Hi Coach
i am allergic to all nuts and was wondering what you would recommend as the best substitution for the Finibar[/quote]
There cannot really be a substitute because those bars have special carbs that are not present in any product. Well, there is one exception, Surge Workout Fuel has the same carbs, so you could take more of that. But the purpose of the FINiBAR is to have something solid, not only fluids, containing the nutrients. And since no solid food has palatinose and rice oligodextrin, you canāt really replace the bars.
You could simply drop them. If you keep the rest of the protocol intact, youāll still get results. You could also increase Workout Fuel intake.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
platosbrainchild wrote:
Hi Coach
i am allergic to all nuts and was wondering what you would recommend as the best substitution for the Finibar
There cannot really be a substitute because those bars have special carbs that are not present in any product. Well, there is one exception, Surge Workout Fuel has the same carbs, so you could take more of that. But the purpose of the Finibar is to have something solid, not only fluids, containing the nutrients. And since no solid food has palatinose and rice oligodextrin, you canāt really replace the bars.
You could simply drop them. If you keep the rest of the protocol intact, youāll still get results. You could also increase Workout Fuel intake.[/quote]
thank you
Okay, I think Iām about to ābiteā on this protocol.
Iāve got a couple weeks left on a 5-3-1 cycle, then plan on maxing to see where I am at and then will run a routine for the next 4 weeks up to a powerlifting meet at the end of the 5th. The routine will be an upper/lower split 4 days a week, with one day focusing on ME, the other a mix of RE, and DE. (Iāve been focusing more on strength the last few years really, so figure the RE will help me add a bit of muscle along with this protocol) I will be keeping track to see how well this protocol works. I plan on doing the following measurements:
7 site calipers
girth measurements
weight
max lifts
As I will try to do a āreviewā when I am done - is there anything else people would like to see for me to track? Iām mainly doing this for myself to see how well it works so I can make my own opinion about it, but figure since Iām doing it I should at least try to help anyone else out.
Protocol I will be using:
-60 GPC
-45 1 FINiBAR
-30 2 SWF
-15 2 SR + 5g creatine
0 1 SWF + 20g PeptoPro
+60 20g PeptoPro + 5g creatine
For those using PeptoPro (since Biotest hasnāt released Anaconda/CH) what flavor have you used and seems to be most tolerable? Also, from what Iāve read, the protocol looks right, but am I totally overlooking anything important?
DK-
Add 5 grams of leucine to the WF/Peptopro (Iād up that to 24 grams of Peptopro) during the workout and to the 20 grams Peptopro 60 minutes post workout.
[quote]synergy93 wrote:
DK-
Add 5 grams of leucine to the WF/Peptopro (Iād up that to 24 grams of Peptopro) during the workout and to the 20 grams Peptopro 60 minutes post workout.[/quote]
I donāt think CT has recommended more than 20g of CH, and believe he recommends āpulsingā with only 12g due to the rapid uptake of it (only so much can be absorbed at one time). Do you have a reason to think 24 will be better than 20?
Also I could see adding Leucine to the +60 shake, but Surge Recovery and Surge Workout Fuel both have Leucine already in it - would extra really be necessary at that point? I would think there should be enough to switch on the anabolism.
[quote]DK wrote:
synergy93 wrote:
DK-
Add 5 grams of leucine to the WF/Peptopro (Iād up that to 24 grams of Peptopro) during the workout and to the 20 grams Peptopro 60 minutes post workout.
I donāt think CT has recommended more than 20g of CH, and believe he recommends āpulsingā with only 12g due to the rapid uptake of it (only so much can be absorbed at one time). Do you have a reason to think 24 will be better than 20?
Also I could see adding Leucine to the +60 shake, but Surge Recovery and Surge Workout Fuel both have Leucine already in it - would extra really be necessary at that point? I would think there should be enough to switch on the anabolism.[/quote]
You are right there was not a single post where 24g of peptopro was reccomendedā¦ really not sure what synergy is talking about thereā¦
For the leucine, the reason for it during the workout is really just because you want as many nutriments to go in your muscles at that time. (I personally add 5g of leucine to my SWF during the workout and 5g to my 20g of peptopro)
As far as flavour goes, my guess is they will all taste badā¦ im using chocolateā¦ its tolerable.
Concerning the addition of leucine to the +60 shake, it was recommended that for the pulses, what you could do is take 5g of leucine 30mins before meal and than 12g of CHY 20mins before meal (so 10mins later).
Finally, I think I read somewhere that CT recommended having the creatine -30mins with the SWF.
As far as the creatine postworkout, im still not sure if its better to take it seperatly right after the workout or +60mins
[quote]DK wrote:
synergy93 wrote:
DK-
Add 5 grams of leucine to the WF/Peptopro (Iād up that to 24 grams of Peptopro) during the workout and to the 20 grams Peptopro 60 minutes post workout.
I donāt think CT has recommended more than 20g of CH, and believe he recommends āpulsingā with only 12g due to the rapid uptake of it (only so much can be absorbed at one time). Do you have a reason to think 24 will be better than 20?
Also I could see adding Leucine to the +60 shake, but Surge Recovery and Surge Workout Fuel both have Leucine already in it - would extra really be necessary at that point? I would think there should be enough to switch on the anabolism.[/quote]
You are right there was not a single post where 24g of peptopro was reccomendedā¦ really not sure what synergy is talking about thereā¦
For the leucine, the reason for it during the workout is really just because you want as many nutriments to go in your muscles at that time. (I personally add 5g of leucine to my SWF during the workout and 5g to my 20g of peptopro)
As far as flavour goes, my guess is they will all taste badā¦ im using chocolateā¦ its tolerable.
Concerning the addition of leucine to the +60 shake, it was recommended that for the pulses, what you could do is take 5g of leucine 30mins before meal and than 12g of CHY 20mins before meal (so 10mins later).
Finally, I think I read somewhere that CT recommended having the creatine -30mins with the SWF.
As far as the creatine postworkout, im still not sure if its better to take it seperatly right after the workout or +60mins
Would using marijuana post workout be beneficial?
[quote]zraw wrote:
DK wrote:
synergy93 wrote:
DK-
Add 5 grams of leucine to the WF/Peptopro (Iād up that to 24 grams of Peptopro) during the workout and to the 20 grams Peptopro 60 minutes post workout.
I donāt think CT has recommended more than 20g of CH, and believe he recommends āpulsingā with only 12g due to the rapid uptake of it (only so much can be absorbed at one time). Do you have a reason to think 24 will be better than 20?
Also I could see adding Leucine to the +60 shake, but Surge Recovery and Surge Workout Fuel both have Leucine already in it - would extra really be necessary at that point? I would think there should be enough to switch on the anabolism.
You are right there was not a single post where 24g of peptopro was reccomendedā¦ really not sure what synergy is talking about thereā¦
For the leucine, the reason for it during the workout is really just because you want as many nutriments to go in your muscles at that time. (I personally add 5g of leucine to my SWF during the workout and 5g to my 20g of peptopro)
As far as flavour goes, my guess is they will all taste badā¦ im using chocolateā¦ its tolerable.
Concerning the addition of leucine to the +60 shake, it was recommended that for the pulses, what you could do is take 5g of leucine 30mins before meal and than 12g of CHY 20mins before meal (so 10mins later).
Finally, I think I read somewhere that CT recommended having the creatine -30mins with the SWF.
As far as the creatine postworkout, im still not sure if its better to take it seperatly right after the workout or +60mins
[/quote]
i think thibs once said creatine is best taken 15 minutes pre/post workout
Coach
I am on a fat loss cycle and using the minimal protocol (1 of everything)and it is working great
I have no problems during training but I have had a huge insulin drop after the +60 min shake postworkout.
I get pretty shaky for about 20 minutes and it is pretty intense.
Since I feel great during the workout and for an hour later could it be the Glutamine I added postworkout
I have a lot of it so I add about 15-25 grams postworkout with the +60 minute shake? This is the only thing I can think of that will really cause such a shift.
Is that possible, the glutamine is doing this?
Thanks
I am a student in England so I canāt afford to follow the ideal protcol (shipping and tax costs etc. etc.) I was thinking of doing the following and would appreciate it if I could get some feedback (from CT or anyone really)
-60: 2 caps Alpha-GPC
-30: 2 Scoops Workout Fuel
-15: spoonful of sugar
During: 20g casein hydrolysate
+60: 20g casein hydrolysate
+90: meal
[quote]crazynick wrote:
I am a student in England so I canāt afford to follow the ideal protcol (shipping and tax costs etc. etc.) I was thinking of doing the following and would appreciate it if I could get some feedback (from CT or anyone really)
-60: 2 caps Alpha-GPC
-30: 2 Scoops Workout Fuel
-15: spoonful of sugar
During: 20g casein hydrolysate
+60: 20g casein hydrolysate
+90: meal[/quote]
U really need to read the ENTIRE thread (I know, I knowā¦its l-o-n-g!) but Thibs has stated that a well intentioned, half-assed, āpoor mansā version of his protocol just isnāt going to be effective.
Unless you are using low molecular weight (mostly under 500 Daltons) CH, dont bother! Switch to a super fast Whey Hydrolysate and L-Leucine instead of the casein.
Iām using this combo for pulsing etc, with great results! The L-Leucine is CRITICAL to your plans until the MAG-10 and Anaconda products are released.
A spoonful of table sugar?! WTF?!! Dont use table sugar, sucrose isnāt ideal at the best of times. There are other cheap (but much nore effective) high GI carbs available.
So, 15 mins before first warmup set use a serve of CH + Leucine or WH + Leucine and some maltodextrin/glucose combo plus a serve of creatine instead of the table sugar.
Just make sure that when you protein pulse with anything other than the Biotest protocol products, do it with L-Leucine. It just wont work otherwiseā¦
Hope this helps 
[quote]peter skelton wrote:
crazynick wrote:
I am a student in England so I canāt afford to follow the ideal protcol (shipping and tax costs etc. etc.) I was thinking of doing the following and would appreciate it if I could get some feedback (from CT or anyone really)
-60: 2 caps Alpha-GPC
-30: 2 Scoops Workout Fuel
-15: spoonful of sugar
During: 20g casein hydrolysate
+60: 20g casein hydrolysate
+90: meal
U really need to read the ENTIRE thread (I know, I knowā¦its l-o-n-g!) but Thibs has stated that a well intentioned, half-assed, āpoor mansā version of his protocol just isnāt going to be effective.
Unless you are using low molecular weight (mostly under 500 Daltons) CH, dont bother! Switch to a super fast Whey Hydrolysate and L-Leucine instead of the casein.
Iām using this combo for pulsing etc, with great results! The L-Leucine is CRITICAL to your plans until the MAG-10 and Anaconda products are released.
A spoonful of table sugar?! WTF?!! Dont use table sugar, sucrose isnāt ideal at the best of times. There are other cheap (but much nore effective) high GI carbs available.
So, 15 mins before first warmup set use a serve of CH + Leucine or WH + Leucine and some maltodextrin/glucose combo plus a serve of creatine instead of the table sugar.
Just make sure that when you protein pulse with anything other than the Biotest protocol products, do it with L-Leucine. It just wont work otherwiseā¦
Hope this helps :)[/quote]
Firstly thanks for replying. Secondly I was going to use āPeptoProā CH as I believed it to be a good one. With regard to the sugar that was actually mentioned earlier in the thread (I have read the whole thing and youāre right. . .it is l-o-n-g) and CT said it wouldnāt be the worst option because it would send insulin levels āthrough the roofā. However I am also aware that he said donāt go for a poor mans approach. Thanks for the response I will have a re-think
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
cujoke31 wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
FERCHCORE wrote:
CT- Could Gatorade be used to add more carbs to the para work-out. If so, where? Add some to Surge Workout Fuel, or maybe with Surge Recovery?
Gatorade? It contains high-fructose corn syrup and fructose. Two bad choices for glycogen replenishment. Youād be better off with table sugar!
But seriouslyā¦ For someone on a very restricted budget, would table sugar work? It would certainly not be optimal, but I am not going for my pro card either. I guess that at some point, we have to make compromises. Or would you have any better suggestions?
Thanks!
Actually it would be an acceptable choice 15 minutes before the workout as it would send insulin through the roof.[/quote]
[quote]crazynick wrote:
peter skelton wrote:
crazynick wrote:
I am a student in England so I canāt afford to follow the ideal protcol (shipping and tax costs etc. etc.) I was thinking of doing the following and would appreciate it if I could get some feedback (from CT or anyone really)
-60: 2 caps Alpha-GPC
-30: 2 Scoops Workout Fuel
-15: spoonful of sugar
During: 20g casein hydrolysate
+60: 20g casein hydrolysate
+90: meal
U really need to read the ENTIRE thread (I know, I knowā¦its l-o-n-g!) but Thibs has stated that a well intentioned, half-assed, āpoor mansā version of his protocol just isnāt going to be effective.
Unless you are using low molecular weight (mostly under 500 Daltons) CH, dont bother! Switch to a super fast Whey Hydrolysate and L-Leucine instead of the casein.
Iām using this combo for pulsing etc, with great results! The L-Leucine is CRITICAL to your plans until the MAG-10 and Anaconda products are released.
A spoonful of table sugar?! WTF?!! Dont use table sugar, sucrose isnāt ideal at the best of times. There are other cheap (but much nore effective) high GI carbs available.
So, 15 mins before first warmup set use a serve of CH + Leucine or WH + Leucine and some maltodextrin/glucose combo plus a serve of creatine instead of the table sugar.
Just make sure that when you protein pulse with anything other than the Biotest protocol products, do it with L-Leucine. It just wont work otherwiseā¦
Hope this helps
Firstly thanks for replying. Secondly I was going to use āPeptoProā CH as I believed it to be a good one. With regard to the sugar that was actually mentioned earlier in the thread (I have read the whole thing and youāre right. . .it is l-o-n-g) and CT said it wouldnāt be the worst option because it would send insulin levels āthrough the roofā. However I am also aware that he said donāt go for a poor mans approach. Thanks for the response I will have a re-think[/quote]
Crazynick, kudos on gettinā through the entire thread!
If you read the very first part of that question posed to Thibs, it was whether table sugar could be used to ADD carbs to the protocol, not BE THE -15min workout standalone formulaā¦The protocol calls for more than ONE spoon (unless its a big soupspoon) of sugar to fuel your workouts AND provide an anabolic insulin spike. An easy option that would work well for you would be to mimic the macronutrient ratios that are in a dose of surge recovery -being sure to include protein- and use that instead.
Peptopro is a good choice and IS MUCH better than Whey Hydrolysate (but no doubt inferior to MAG-10)and IMHO is acceptable if used with L-Leucine for pulsing.
Just be REALLY careful as quarantine in Australia (and Iām guessing maybe other countries too) do NOT allow protein powder products into the country without a hard-as-fucking-hell-to-get import permit. Thanks Mad Cow Disease! I know Iāve had mine seized before - Grrrrr!!
ā¦just a heads up, get written approval or a import permit from customs BEFORE orderingā¦
Good luck, let me know how you go
Hey CT,
I had been using Caffeine-Free Spike before my most demanding workouts ( 2x week) and thought it worked well, However, Biotest doesnāt make it anymore, so I bought some of Spike with just caffeineā¦I was wondering if you knew how much caffeine was in it?
The only caffeine I have is a green tea 2x a week. Also, I would plan on using it in the same manner as I used the Caffeine-Free Spike (2x a week) how long should one use a Spike before you cycle off it? Thanks for your time,
teebone2223
Coach,
Iām currently trying to create the best WO nutrition protocol for my boxing training to help sustain me throughout the session as well as help recover for the next workout. I believe I shouldnāt really be spiking insulin prior to this type of training(please correct me if wrong), so I was thinking of using this protocol for a 60min training session:
W - 40 = 1 FINiBAR
W - 20 = 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
During workout= 1 scoop Surge Workout Fuel
W + 15 = 1 scoop Surge Recovery, 1 scoop Grow! Whey
Please let me know what you think. Less carbs? More protein? Better timing? Much appreciated
the Casein hydrolysate is driving me crazy cause I dont find it anywhere (I know Anaconda would have it, however, everyone seems to have another brand)
CT, I know this post is for Peri-Workout Nutrition, but I would like to know if IĆĀ“m doing it correctly as a ĆĀØwholeĆĀØ
This is how IĆĀ“m gonna do it:
meal 1: solid food + Curcumin 500 + Flameout
meal 2: Metabolic Drive Complete + Superfood
meal 3: solid food + Flameout
Meal 4: Metabolic Drive Complete
preworkout: Workout - 60 = Alpha-GPC
W - 40 = 1/2 FINiBAR
W - 15 = 1 scoop Surge Recovery
During workout (early half) = 1/2 FINiBAR
During workout (later half) = 1 scoop Surge Recovery
after 90 min
Meal 5: solid food + Flameout
thanks in advance!!!
ps:I live in the dominican republic and everyone thinks IĆĀ“m crazy while they see me drinking my Surge Recovery during my workouts