[quote]jstines wrote:
Coach,
How would you apply this para-workout strategy to “metabolic training” sessions or short (<30 minutes) workouts with little to no rest? I guess what I’m saying is, what if there’s not time to drink CH during (or drink anything during may induce serious vomiting)? Do you just move the CH to an immediate post-workout drink?[/quote]
Have 1 scoop of WORKOUT FUEL 20 minutes before the workout and CH post-workout
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
slimsaw00 wrote:
Hey Thib just thought I’d give you a rundown of what I plan on doing:
15-20 minutes PREWO: 2 Scoops Workout Fuel
Arrive at gym (followed by 10 minute dynamic warmup): 1 Serving Surge
30-45 minutes into workout: 0.5-1 Serving Surge (since no Anaconda. . 0.5 on upper days, 1 on lower body days)
Workout Fuel and Surge Recovery are the only supps. I use, besides Spike. . . just wondering what ya think?
-Matt
With minimal product investment, that is about the best you can do. It WILL be effective and does respect the logic behind the complete protocol. Good job.[/quote]
Alright cool, I’ve just been trying to keep it simple with my supplement use. I am intrigued by Anaconda and will experiment with that if/when it does come out.
-Matt
Hi Coach
Great new forum set-up - much appreciated.
Could you just clarify two points for someone currently following a CKD approach and training guidelines from your Refined Physique Transformation.
(a) Would I still get decent para-workout nutrition by using whey hydrosylate and leucine without any simple carbs?
(b) I currently use BCAAs as meal replacements. Would WH and leucine be better for this purpose in terms of pulsing?
Many thanks in advance for your time.
JB
Thib, I just read Nate Green’s Peri-workout nutrition Thread on this forum. Any suggestions as to a complete, Biotest fueled DAY of supplementation? Spare no expense.
This is what I’ve calculated I’d need to do Nate Green’s Peri-Workout Nutrition:
Per week of supplements:
8 capsules GPC
12 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
12 scoops Surge Recovery (added more of this due to lack of Anaconda)
How much those supplements would cost to buy in one stand:
60 capsules for 26.00
90 scoops Surge Workout Fuel 150.00
48 3 scoop servings for 99.00
Surge Recovery (4 weeks)
Surge Workout fuel (7.5 weeks)
GPC (7.5 weeks)
I’ll need to add more Surge Recovery, of course.
Thib,
This question is somewhat speculative and while specifically pertaining to a lot of the para-training nutrition you’ve been discussing would also apply to the rest of the day and spikes of hyperaminoacidemia then, as well.
Whether the goal is maximizing anabolism when building mass or promoting maximal retention of lean mass during diet phases, I’m wondering just how significant the difference in real-world results would be between strategies which were previously considered very good or close to optimal versus what is now speculated as being (or at least potentially being regarded) as the new gold standard.
Obviously a lot of these developments are in the earliest stages, and estimating the difference in overall impact would be a gray area. But if you have a trainee who is consistent in performing progressively more challenging training, uses excellent technique, sufficient loading, and is diligent about regularly adhering to all the hallmarks of effective training, how much would this person “be leaving on the table” if lagging behind in terms of nutrition developments and using strategies currently viewed as inferior/less-than-optimal.
I suppose this would be similar to how advances in training. You’ve mentioned how programs like your OVT are now inferior to your latest views on training/ Yet it would still produce very good results and be superior to a lot of what is still out there, even if it is not the absolute best relative to your newest material.
There’s obviously no substitute for consistent hard work and intensity session after session. But by the same token you clearly believe in the power of optimal para-training nutrition to be a game-changer. I’m just wondering what a rough percentage difference estimate might be between a lifter doing X would be with formerly optimal but currently suboptimal protocols versus the same lifter using the most optimal protocol.
Ok, Coach, I think I got a plan.
30 minutes preworkout 2 scoops Workout Fuel
10-15 min preworkout 2 scoops Surge Recovery on priority days
during workout sip on 30g whey hydrolysate
60 minutes post workout 30g whey hydrolysate
90 minutes post workout, solid meal with protien and carbs
Is this too soon for the solid meal?
Thanks for all the research on all of this. It must have taken a lot of time to piece this all together.
[quote]JamesBrawn007 wrote:
(a) Would I still get decent para-workout nutrition by using whey hydrosylate and leucine without any simple carbs?[/quote]
Decent? Yes. Optimal? No. You are missing out on a lot of cool stuff that it’s the workout fuel.
You could use one scoop of WORKOUT FUEL pre-workout, WH and leucine during workout and post-workout and get very good results.
1 scoop of WORKOUT FUEL has 21g of carbs, not enough to throw off a low-carbs diet if everything else is tight. And the benefits would far outweight the cost anyway.
[quote]JamesBrawn007 wrote:
(b) I currently use BCAAs as meal replacements. Would WH and leucine be better for this purpose in terms of pulsing?
[/quote]
Yep, no question there. For optimal results, take the leucine 5-10 minutes before the whey.
CT,
Assuming we followed this program to the T, how much of an improvement in gains in strength, mass, and recovery do you expect we would experience, coming from using only SWF pre/during workout and Recovery PWO? Obviously this is a hypothetical question, and a rather hard one to answer since it’ll vary from person to person, but what kind of improvements can we reasonably expect? I ask only because, as others have pointed out, this is a pretty expensive program, but I completely agree with you on how you like to optimize progress, and for me it would be worth the cost if it would make a significant difference.
As a side note, just to give you some context, I would label myself an “intermediate” lifter, since I’ve gained almost 70 pounds of muscle since I started, but that only puts me at around 200 pounds, so I feel like I’m not even close to finishing filling out my 6’ 3" frame 
Thanks so much!
BT
[quote]BoSoxFever wrote:
Thib,
This question is somewhat speculative and while specifically pertaining to a lot of the para-training nutrition you’ve been discussing would also apply to the rest of the day and spikes of hyperaminoacidemia then, as well.
Whether the goal is maximizing anabolism when building mass or promoting maximal retention of lean mass during diet phases, I’m wondering just how significant the difference in real-world results would be between strategies which were previously considered very good or close to optimal versus what is now speculated as being (or at least potentially being regarded) as the new gold standard.
Obviously a lot of these developments are in the earliest stages, and estimating the difference in overall impact would be a gray area. But if you have a trainee who is consistent in performing progressively more challenging training, uses excellent technique, sufficient loading, and is diligent about regularly adhering to all the hallmarks of effective training, how much would this person “be leaving on the table” if lagging behind in terms of nutrition developments and using strategies currently viewed as inferior/less-than-optimal.
I suppose this would be similar to how advances in training. You’ve mentioned how programs like your OVT are now inferior to your latest views on training/ Yet it would still produce very good results and be superior to a lot of what is still out there, even if it is not the absolute best relative to your newest material.
There’s obviously no substitute for consistent hard work and intensity session after session. But by the same token you clearly believe in the power of optimal para-training nutrition to be a game-changer. I’m just wondering what a rough percentage difference estimate might be between a lifter doing X would be with formerly optimal but currently suboptimal protocols versus the same lifter using the most optimal protocol.
[/quote]
As you mention, it’s hard to even guestimate a precise number. But I can tell you that it does make a big difference. For a while I actually trained without using WORKOUT FUEL, ANACONDA AND RECOVERY. Not because I didn’t believe in them, but because Biotest would only send me a limited supply and I gave them to my pro athletes, who I felt, needed them more than ‘just a coach’.
When Biotest decided to jack up their real world experimentation in search for the perfect para-workout protocol they actually sent me 30 CASES. I was in Ohio with Tate at the time and needless to say that I heard quite a mouthfull from my wife when I got back
Anyway, now that I full freedom to test several protocols, I can say that I forgot how big a difference it made. I had to stop short a few workouts because the pump was so intense that it was uncomfortable!
I can also say that I never gained size as fast, and I’m not really doing anything out of the ordinary to gain bulk except for the para-workout protocols. I eat pretty much the same thing, maybe with a bit more fruits than in the past, but nothing out of this world.
I’m actually not taking any other supplements besides the protocol, to better be able to assess how much effect it actually has by itself.
When I started the protocol and training program I knew that I wanted to add size. I just did not have any precise point in mind. I started out at 212lbs and I’m now 239lbs and we’re midway through week 7. And as I mentionned, I’m not gorging myself to gain. If anything I’m eating less than usual.
My strength is through the roof. During the past 3 weeks I destroyed previous bests in the bench press, thick bar bench press, seated shoulder press, standing military press. My squat is also back up to where it used to be when I was an olympic lifter and my deadlift is steadily improving.
How much of a difference does it make (the protocol) hard to say. But I would not feel like I’m lying or pulling your chain by saying that my rate of progress is at least 25% faster than ot normally is.
[quote]seabass34 wrote:
Ok, Coach, I think I got a plan.
30 minutes preworkout 2 scoops Workout Fuel
10-15 min preworkout 2 scoops Surge Recovery on priority days
during workout sip on 30g whey hydrolysate
60 minutes post workout 30g whey hydrolysate
90 minutes post workout, solid meal with protien and carbs
Is this too soon for the solid meal?
Thanks for all the research on all of this. It must have taken a lot of time to piece this all together.[/quote]
Looks fine to me. I’d still keep 1 scoop of RECOVERY on the non-priority days.
[quote]BlakedaMan wrote:
CT,
Assuming we followed this program to the T, how much of an improvement in gains in strength, mass, and recovery do you expect we would experience, coming from using only SWF pre/during workout and Recovery PWO? Obviously this is a hypothetical question, and a rather hard one to answer since it’ll vary from person to person, but what kind of improvements can we reasonably expect? I ask only because, as others have pointed out, this is a pretty expensive program, but I completely agree with you on how you like to optimize progress, and for me it would be worth the cost if it would make a significant difference.
As a side note, just to give you some context, I would label myself an “intermediate” lifter, since I’ve gained almost 70 pounds of muscle since I started, but that only puts me at around 200 pounds, so I feel like I’m not even close to finishing filling out my 6’ 3" frame
Thanks so much!
BT[/quote]
It would obviously depend on the program you are on. The para-workout protocols we’re using right now are actually tailor-made for the new training approach that Tim Patterson and I have been building for the past 3 months or so.
I can give you some results from my last phase of training (last 3 weeks) which is when everything fell into place (we nailed the para-workout protocol timing).
My top half seated shoulder press went from 395 for 3 to 455 for 3
My full seated shoulder press went from 295lbs for 1 to 365 for 1
My bench pressed went from 375 (although my previous best had been 425) to 440 with a thick bar
On the floor press I went from 325 for 3 reps to 375 for 2 reps
On the lateral raise machine (yeah yeah yeah) I went from using the stack for 3 reps to the stack plus 90lbs for 3 reps
My partner had similar, but scaled results since he started from a lower point.
This 3 weeks phase was a shoulders spec phase BTW.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
BlakedaMan wrote:
CT,
Assuming we followed this program to the T, how much of an improvement in gains in strength, mass, and recovery do you expect we would experience, coming from using only SWF pre/during workout and Recovery PWO? Obviously this is a hypothetical question, and a rather hard one to answer since it’ll vary from person to person, but what kind of improvements can we reasonably expect? I ask only because, as others have pointed out, this is a pretty expensive program, but I completely agree with you on how you like to optimize progress, and for me it would be worth the cost if it would make a significant difference.
As a side note, just to give you some context, I would label myself an “intermediate” lifter, since I’ve gained almost 70 pounds of muscle since I started, but that only puts me at around 200 pounds, so I feel like I’m not even close to finishing filling out my 6’ 3" frame
Thanks so much!
BT
It would obviously depend on the program you are on. The para-workout protocols we’re using right now are actually tailor-made for the new training approach that Tim Patterson and I have been building for the past 3 months or so.
I can give you some results from my last phase of training (last 3 weeks) which is when everything fell into place (we nailed the para-workout protocol timing).
My top half seated shoulder press went from 395 for 3 to 455 for 3
My full seated shoulder press went from 295lbs for 1 to 365 for 1
My bench pressed went from 375 (although my previous best had been 425) to 440 with a thick bar
On the floor press I went from 325 for 3 reps to 375 for 2 reps
On the lateral raise machine (yeah yeah yeah) I went from using the stack for 3 reps to the stack plus 90lbs for 3 reps
My partner had similar, but scaled results since he started from a lower point.
This 3 weeks phase was a shoulders spec phase BTW.[/quote]
Will it be absolutely neccessary to include the para workout protocol to follow the new superprogram when it comes it? Or will you still recommend the program to those who have no money (grad student, cannot afford the supps at this time, and rely primarily on whole food? Obviously I realize gains would not be as effective but would the overall work of the program be too much?
Thanks as always.
Coach, what are you currently eating prior to beginning your para-workout nutrition that you have laid out. How far out and what type of meal do you have? I’m curious as to what would not interfere. For those not using the pulse method, rather eating regularly.
If possible could you present a mock up diet like you have for the pulse method only this time for those not following that method?
Thank you in advance for any help and again what your doing here is such a great help!
[quote]ajweins wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
BlakedaMan wrote:
CT,
Assuming we followed this program to the T, how much of an improvement in gains in strength, mass, and recovery do you expect we would experience, coming from using only SWF pre/during workout and Recovery PWO? Obviously this is a hypothetical question, and a rather hard one to answer since it’ll vary from person to person, but what kind of improvements can we reasonably expect? I ask only because, as others have pointed out, this is a pretty expensive program, but I completely agree with you on how you like to optimize progress, and for me it would be worth the cost if it would make a significant difference.
As a side note, just to give you some context, I would label myself an “intermediate” lifter, since I’ve gained almost 70 pounds of muscle since I started, but that only puts me at around 200 pounds, so I feel like I’m not even close to finishing filling out my 6’ 3" frame
Thanks so much!
BT
It would obviously depend on the program you are on. The para-workout protocols we’re using right now are actually tailor-made for the new training approach that Tim Patterson and I have been building for the past 3 months or so.
I can give you some results from my last phase of training (last 3 weeks) which is when everything fell into place (we nailed the para-workout protocol timing).
My top half seated shoulder press went from 395 for 3 to 455 for 3
My full seated shoulder press went from 295lbs for 1 to 365 for 1
My bench pressed went from 375 (although my previous best had been 425) to 440 with a thick bar
On the floor press I went from 325 for 3 reps to 375 for 2 reps
On the lateral raise machine (yeah yeah yeah) I went from using the stack for 3 reps to the stack plus 90lbs for 3 reps
My partner had similar, but scaled results since he started from a lower point.
This 3 weeks phase was a shoulders spec phase BTW.
Will it be absolutely neccessary to include the para workout protocol to follow the new superprogram when it comes it? Or will you still recommend the program to those who have no money (grad student, cannot afford the supps at this time, and rely primarily on whole food? Obviously I realize gains would not be as effective but would the overall work of the program be too much?
Thanks as always.[/quote]
The protocol is like the magic mushroom in Mario Bros. : It drastically increases your capacities, strength and resistance. Can you complete the game without it? Yes, but its gonna take longer and will be much harder.
Coach,
Can Metabolic Drive bars be used instead of FiniBars?
Coach,
If I am training approx 100 minutes after my breakfast(egg whites etc), do I still require 40g of BCAA pre-workout(Im in a fat loss phase, no carbs)?
Here is my current strategie for the first half of the day, where my training is:
05:00 Wake up 30g HC pulse
05:20 Breakfast 10 egg whites + greens
PARAWORKOUT
06:30 Pre workout 40g BCAAâ??s
06:45 Pre workout 5-10g leucine
07:00 Pre workout 20g Casein Hydrolysate
07:00 â?? 08:00 WORKOUT
07:30 During Workout: 20g Casein Hydrolysate
08:15 Post workout: 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5g creatine+20g glycine+5g taurine
09:20 Post workout 5-10g leucine
09:30 Post workout 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine
12:00 Lunch Fish + greens
etc
Thanks again,
Triv
[quote]Gymjunkie wrote:
Coach,
If I am training approx 100 minutes after my breakfast(egg whites etc), do I still require 40g of BCAA pre-workout(Im in a fat loss phase, no carbs)?
Here is my current strategie for the first half of the day, where my training is:
05:00 Wake up 30g HC pulse
05:20 Breakfast 10 egg whites + greens
PARAWORKOUT
06:30 Pre workout 40g BCAAâ??s
06:45 Pre workout 5-10g leucine
07:00 Pre workout 20g Casein Hydrolysate
07:00 â?? 08:00 WORKOUT
07:30 During Workout: 20g Casein Hydrolysate
08:15 Post workout: 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5g creatine+20g glycine+5g taurine
09:20 Post workout 5-10g leucine
09:30 Post workout 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine
12:00 Lunch Fish + greens
etc
Thanks again,
Triv[/quote]
Nah, drop the BCAAs. Your protocol is very solid.
[quote]wutan wrote:
Coach,
Can Metabolic Drive bars be used instead of FiniBars?[/quote]
Wouldn’t be ideal. The protein combination in the MD bar isn’t bad at all, but the combo of special carbs in the FINiBARS is way superior to maximize muscle hydration and glycogen loading.
However I heard that the price of FINIBARS will be drastically slashed soon. It should be pretty close to what the MD bars are sold for.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Gymjunkie wrote:
Coach,
If I am training approx 100 minutes after my breakfast(egg whites etc), do I still require 40g of BCAA pre-workout(Im in a fat loss phase, no carbs)?
Here is my current strategie for the first half of the day, where my training is:
05:00 Wake up 30g HC pulse
05:20 Breakfast 10 egg whites + greens
PARAWORKOUT
06:30 Pre workout 40g BCAA�¢??s
06:45 Pre workout 5-10g leucine
07:00 Pre workout 20g Casein Hydrolysate
07:00 �¢?? 08:00 WORKOUT
07:30 During Workout: 20g Casein Hydrolysate
08:15 Post workout: 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5g creatine+20g glycine+5g taurine
09:20 Post workout 5-10g leucine
09:30 Post workout 30g Casein Hydrolysate + 5-10g leucine
12:00 Lunch Fish + greens
etc
Thanks again,
Triv
Nah, drop the BCAAs. Your protocol is very solid.[/quote]
THANKS!
GJ
What should I do for supplementation as far as intervals and sprint work… just Surge Recovery post workout