Questions About Peri-Workout Nutrition

Training
501

[quote]KeepAwaySheeple wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
What I am saying in terms of what was immediately the case during the workout, comparing rate of nutrients entering bloodstream to rate at which the muscles are consuming energy, with your above protocol you had to have been running a deficit during the workout.

So basically Surge Workout Fuel doesn’t do what it claims to do then? [/quote]

Nothing that I wrote said that and that does not follow from anything I wrote. Furthermore it’s not the case. Surge Workout Fuel used as directed works better than any published protocol presented earlier.

No, you could drink a lot of Coca-Cola for example and be taking in energy at the same rate or greater than expending it. (Have at least twice as many calories as are being burned, though, as at least half the calories from Coca-Cola are from fructose, which isn’t directly utilizable by muscle.)

It would not work nearly as well as CT’s protocol but that one aspect would be addressed.

Why do you assume it’s impossible that something less than optimal could still have given quite good results? That does not follow.

You seem to operating on assumptions that anything that worked well must be the best possible; and if anything of any sort is now reported as an improvement, this must mean that everything done before didn’t work at all and positive statements about it were false.

I can’t see how I can get anywhere saying any more on this, or even that this post will get anywhere, because when you do all this to what I say, I might just as well never have said it.

Think as you will. I’m glad the protocols you’ve followed to date have worked well for you. Stick with what you are happy with. That is always good advice. It will often leave out things that would be even better, but if you’re happy then that is good enough.

502

KeepAwaySheeple I admire your tenacity. You are right to question a new strategy. Maybe we should let others report their experiences as more get on the program. We are all individuals. CT and the Biotest crew have gone all out to design a system that can be universally applied. There will still be exceptions as our individual physiologies are unique. This protocol is still in its infancy but has very encouraging results to date. No progress would be made if no one tried to further tweak what already works.

Maybe you can ensure that your solid meal 2 hours prior to training is pork loin or egg whites as CT said those are fast digesting so as to have a more empty stomach prior to attempting to ingest what are perceived as large quantities of shakes and finibars prior and during training. I commend you for having messed up several workouts in your attempt to adjust, especially given you have been experiencing such fabulous results recently with your prior regimen. It is also a distinct possibility that this system simply doesn’t work for you for reasons unknown.

Why not get back on your prior regimen and watch from the sidelines for a while. Maybe something will come up in one of these threads or future documentation that will illuminate another avenue of attack. In the meantime you can continue on the excellent trajectory that you have already initiated.

503

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Nothing that I wrote said that and that does not follow from anything I wrote. Furthermore it’s not the case. Surge Workout Fuel used as directed works better than any published protocol presented earlier.
[/quote]

I stated what I had consumned for the day and that I took in a serving of Surge Workout Fuel before training. You then you said that I may not be at a deficit prior to training but certainly at a deficit during training. When you said this, how was I supposed to interpret?

To me, it means that the Surge Workout Fuel is not protecting me during my workouts and therefore not doing it’s job. Am I wrong, did you not mean I would be at a deficit if I consumned Workout Fuel before my workouts? I stated what my old protocol was (SWF before, SR after) and you were commenting that I would be at a deficit during workouts.

Not at all, but my experience is what it is and I feel it appropriate to post here where others can take it for what it is, real experience from a real Biotest customer.

I can honestly tell you that the way I felt when drinking Workout Fuel before and Recovery after in addition to the results that I experienced while doing so, was far superior than feeling horrible during my workouts and having it actually negatively effect my performance when consuming Finibars, Workout Fuel and Recovery all before workouts.

[quote]
I can’t see how I can get anywhere saying any more on this, or even that this post will get anywhere, because when you do all this to what I say, I might just as well never have said it.

Think as you will. I’m glad the protocols you’ve followed to date have worked well for you. Stick with what you are happy with. That is always good advice. It will often leave out things that would be even better, but if you’re happy then that is good enough.[/quote]

I do appreciate your input Bill, no need to get frustrated with me personally, I’m just frustrated because I take my training and supplement intake very seriously and I’m always striving for the best.

504

CT,

I am curious about side effects of the jacked up anabolism brought on by this protocol. I know you said that the extra body mass was unpleasant for you in a number of ways.

  • Difficulty sleeping (sleep apnea)
  • Pumps in calves when walking up even a moderate hill.
  • Drowsiness during the day and evenings.

I know you said you will be attempting to follow the para-workout protocol with only one additional meal and CH pulses throughout the day in an attempt to get back to 5% bf.

In your opinion, were these side effects brought on primarily from the added mass (crossing a certain personal comfort threshold), or was it the ingestion of way more carbs than you are used to during the day?

I was also wondering if any other body changes were noticed such as increased perspiration? Basically if you noticed that you felt uncomfortable at a lower temperature/humidity level than prior to this experiment?

I ask that question because I have put on 20lbs of mass this spring/summer and I have found a dramatic change in body’s tolerance to heat/humidity. My T-shirt is now drenched after a workout where it wasn’t in the past. A 15 minute walk outside in humid heat now gets me all steamed up. I find it very uncomfortable especially since this is new to me.

505

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

The best protocol, the official one, will be:

-90 Alpha-GPC
-45 2 Finibars
-30 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
-15 2 scoops Surge Recovery
during the workout 2 scoops Anaconda
60 minutes after the workout 20g casein hydrolysate

The minimal protocol is 1 of everything instead of 2 and the heavy loading is 3 instead of 2[/quote]

Coach, I am going to perform an experiment of sorts on myself to determine the effect (if any) of Anaconda on the protocol vs a substitute. The reason being, I want to determine if Anaconda is as great as the hype. I know that you and the rest of the guys at Biotest have been telling everyone about how great it has been for you and your test subjects (which is why I am giving it a shot), but being a scientist I look at everything objectively before making a decision on it. What I plan on doing is the protocol you have outlined above except replacing the Anaconda and CH (I have tried many different brands of CH and couldn’t keep any of them down) with Surge Recovery. I will do this for 3 months and then, if it has been released, swap out Anaconda during the workout. My questions are as follows:

  1. Is Surge Recovery a good replacement for both the Anaconda and CH or is there a better alternative?

  2. When I do the Anaconda phase, would it be better than Surge Recovery 60 min PWO?

As I have recently recieved a rather substantial inheritance, money is not an issue with substitutes but I still do not want to waste it on products that do nothing for me which is the reason for this experiment.

506

[quote]KeepAwaySheeple wrote:

I stated what I had consumned for the day and that I took in a serving of Surge Workout Fuel before training. You then you said that I may not be at a deficit prior to training but certainly at a deficit during training. When you said this, how am I supposed to take this?

To me, it means that the Surge Workout Fuel is not protecting me during my workouts and therefore not doing it’s job. Am I wrong, did you not mean I would be at a deficit if I consumned Workout Fuel before my workout? [/quote]

Using Surge Workout Fuel at the correct 2 scoops per hour provides 170 calories per hour.

It’s not that it doesn’t do its job: before I started getting Anaconda, I used SWF that way, did not load with Surge Recovery beforehand (did use 1 additional scoop of SWF a half hour before training) and it was better than any protocol I ever used before.

But the pre and during workout nutrition actually was not / is not matching energy expenditure.

The protocol CT describes, when counting also the loading right before the workout, has the muscles more filled after the workout – before any postworkout drink – than they were before the para-workout nutrition started. This actually is better.

Anaconda, incidentally, is not the calorie/carbohydrate provider for this. It provides the same added ingredients enhancing workouts that Surge Workout Fuel does (and more) and provides the particular casein hydrolysate which enormously enhances muscle amino acid uptake during the workout. Carbohydrates rely on the loading of the other components of the protocol.

Now myself, I also use Surge Recovery during the workout to keep glucose coming in and I don’t load as heavily beforehand (I like having my Finibars at other times.) So to be clear, the carb aspect is not what the Anaconda is about, but the entire protocol does take care of it, most assuredly.

[quote] (I had written) You seem to operating on assumptions that anything that worked well must be the best possible; and if anything of any sort is now reported as an improvement, this must mean that everything done before didn’t work at all and positive statements about it were false.

Not at all, however I can honestly tell you that the way I felt when drinking Workout Fuel before and Recovery after in addition to the results that I experienced while doing so, was for superior than feeling horrible during my workouts and having it actually negatively effect my performance when consuming Finibars, Workout Fuel and Recovery all before workouts.[/quote]

I’m sorry for misinterpreting you. When you seemed to be saying that what I wrote means that therefor Surge Workout Fuel doesn’t do what it says, that was what seemed to follow to me, but now it’s clear that was misinterpreting you.

Definitely go with what definitely what works well for you rather than what has you feeling horrible. My guess is that either you are not enough carb tolerant to do well with so much at one time – this will be the case for some – or for some reason the timing, even if identical to what CT has posted, didn’t work for you.

Or, some people are going to do better with some solid food (the Finibar) along with the drinks. Others will do better with just drinks.

[quote] (I had written) I can’t see how I can get anywhere saying any more on this, or even that this post will get anywhere, because when you do all this to what I say, I might just as well never have said it.[/quote

I do appreciate your input, no need to get frustrated with me personally, I’m just frustrated because I take my training and supplement intake very seriously and I’m always striving for the best.[/quote]

No, the fault is mine, and I wasn’t frustrated with you personally but just the situation of thinking I had put things clearly but finding that instead, it was producing conclusions that I hadn’t said and which weren’t the case and were definitely worse than had I said nothing.

In reality, the fact that what I wrote had you remaining uncertain or unclear on various points means that probably that was true for many other people as well, so you bringing that to attention actually was very much to the good all around.

507

Ok Bill,

Thanks alot for staying with me on this.

So I have lots of Finibars, SWF, SR and Alpha GPC. I don’t want anything to go to waste.

Instead of doing this which was causing all the discomfort -

-60 Alpha GPC
-45 2 Finibars
-30 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
-15 2 scoops Surge Recovery

Would I be able to spread the timing out to allow more time for digestion and for things to pass, maybe something like this -

-100 1 Finibar
-80 Alpha GPC
-60 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
-15 1 scoop Surge Recovery
During workout sip 1 scoop Surge Recovery

Any thoughts or advice is appreciated, thanks Bill.

508

Quick question: is amylopectine worth the money compared to maltodextrin as a help to increase the insulin
pre and post-workout? Why dont you guys use it in Surge Recovery for example?

509

KeepAwaySheeple,

I would think trial & error will best answer your last proposed protocol. The best nutrition in the world is futile if it doesn’t agree with you. Maybe you were inquiring more about the technical aspect of the timing and whether it negates certain synergies that the proper protocol is based on.

510

Looking at the parts most immediate to the workout, the 2 scoops of SWF an hour beforehand is good. You could experiment with pushing it to 40 minutes, but I have done both 40 and 60 and both work fine for me.

The -15 Surge Recovery is good, though depending on your warmups you might want to push, for sake of figuring nutrition timing, the start time of the workout to the point where you’re first doing substantial work. For example, these days for box squats I start with quite a few sets of just the empty bar. The workout is not considered to start until I’m doing warmups that are beyond being just ordinary levels of light work that one might do any time of day.

If you find yourself getting a sugar rush during your warmups, then the “start of workout” point was, IMO, figured earlier than it should be.

Fine also on the 2 scoops SWF at the start of workout.

Personally I’d rather have the 1 scoop of Surge Recovery at the half hour point. It’s not as if absorption is instantaneous: if it’s a 1 hour workout then delivery should be tailing off right as the workout ends, as a guess and judging how things seem to be from feel (I don’t have actual data on this.) No need for the workout to be exactly an hour or for it to be exactly 30 minutes. For example, if 45 minutes than having the extra SR at 20 or 25 minutes would be fine.

I really can’t say regarding going back -100 minutes to the Finibar. It would be a lot better than an empty stomach, for sure. If you feel fine going into the workout you will be good, so consider that one a “whatever works for you” thing.

511

[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
KeepAwaySheeple I admire your tenacity. You are right to question a new strategy. Maybe we should let others report their experiences as more get on the program. We are all individuals. CT and the Biotest crew have gone all out to design a system that can be universally applied. There will still be exceptions as our individual physiologies are unique. This protocol is still in its infancy but has very encouraging results to date. No progress would be made if no one tried to further tweak what already works.

Maybe you can ensure that your solid meal 2 hours prior to training is pork loin or egg whites as CT said those are fast digesting so as to have a more empty stomach prior to attempting to ingest what are perceived as large quantities of shakes and finibars prior and during training. I commend you for having messed up several workouts in your attempt to adjust, especially given you have been experiencing such fabulous results recently with your prior regimen. It is also a distinct possibility that this system simply doesn’t work for you for reasons unknown.

Why not get back on your prior regimen and watch from the sidelines for a while. Maybe something will come up in one of these threads or future documentation that will illuminate another avenue of attack. In the meantime you can continue on the excellent trajectory that you have already initiated.[/quote]

Thank you very much, I appreciate your comments.

I have the products already and don’t want them to go to waste.

I had already been using the SWF and SR, so I will try to somehow work in the Finibars by trial an error as you and Bill have suggested.

512

For what it’s worth, I have trouble with 2 scoops of Surge Workout Fuel and Surge Recovery. My stomach doesn’t seem to like getting 2 scoops of Surge Workout Fuel all at once, though I think ultimately the insulin spike and resulting crash from the Surge Recovery are what causes problems. What has worked for me so far is:

-45 1 FINiBAR
-30 1 scoop Surge Workout Fuel
-10 1 scoop Surge Recovery

And then I’ll sip on another scoop of Surge Recovery during the workout. I think having something during the workout is the key…today I’m going to try 2 scoops of Surgfe Workout Fuel while still splitting up my Surge Recovery.

513

Ok Bill, just to reiterate and to make sure I understand correctly.

Surge Workout Fuel will be just as effective and last well into the workout if consumned an hour before training. Correct?

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Personally I’d rather have the 1 scoop of Surge Recovery at the half hour point. It’s not as if absorption is instantaneous: if it’s a 1 hour workout then delivery should be tailing off right as the workout ends, as a guess and judging how things seem to be from feel (I don’t have actual data on this.) No need for the workout to be exactly an hour or for it to be exactly 30 minutes. For example, if 45 minutes than having the extra SR at 20 or 25 minutes would be fine.
[/quote]

So you would recommend consumning Surge Recovery 30 minutes before workout or 30 minutes into the workout? I usually feel the crazy sugar rush at the very beginning of the workout when consumned at -15. So when would be the ideal time to actually feel the sugar rush?

Thank you again for all your help!!

514

Yes, that is my experience with Surge Workout Fuel.

If you’re having the sugar rush problem taking the Surge Recovery at -15 then I’d try seeing where you can delay it to that does not give that problem. If it works out that taking it with the Surge Workout Fuel at the very start of the workout is better for you, I’m convinced that’s effective also (I do it myself. now with Anaconda but in the past have done with SWF as well.)

Glad to be of any help!

515

He’s saying count the start of your work out as your first heavy set, not your streching, posing in the mirror while secretly hoping the cardio bunnies are watching but the first set you actually shift some weight. Take this 15min pre.

I resue your here to troll btw

516

On wfifer’s post: Absolutely.

If sipping works better for you than having a given amount all at once, most definitely then do that.

It doesn’t seem to me though that it should be timed so the sipping just ends as the workout ends, as in that case, quite a bit of the total dosage isn’t absorbed till postworkout. For a 1 hour workout, my guess is that the ideal is to take a goodly amount right at the start, but certainly an amount that is comfortable, and then finish up by the 30-40 minute point.

That way the great majority the workout-enhancing ingredients should be arriving into the bloodstream when most useful: during the workout. And since they have a duration of action, it’s most efficient for that to be earlier in the workout so as to be providing use both early and at the end.

Whereas of course something absorbed only at the last minute is useful in the workout itself only at the last minute.

517

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
On wfifer’s post: Absolutely.

If sipping works better for you than having a given amount all at once, most definitely then do that.

It doesn’t seem to me though that it should be timed so the sipping just ends as the workout ends, as in that case, quite a bit of the total dosage isn’t absorbed till postworkout. For a 1 hour workout, my guess is that the ideal is to take a goodly amount right at the start, but certainly an amount that is comfortable, and then finish up by the 30-40 minute point.

That way the great majority the workout-enhancing ingredients should be arriving into the bloodstream when most useful: during the workout. And since they have a duration of action, it’s most efficient for that to be earlier in the workout so as to be providing use both early and at the end.

Whereas of course something absorbed only at the last minute is useful in the workout itself only at the last minute.[/quote]

Bill ! If Anaconda wasnt available , what would you use DURING the workout to maximize the benefits? Thanks

Edit : Assuming you did the protocol Thib outlined :

-90 Alpha-GPC
-45 2 FINiBARs
-30 2 Surge Workout Fuel
-15 2 Surge Recovery

+60 20g casein hydrolysate

518

[quote]thestudbeast wrote:
He’s saying count the start of your work out as your first heavy set, not your streching, posing in the mirror while secretly hoping the cardio bunnies are watching but the first set you actually shift some weight. Take this 15min pre.

I resue your here to troll btw[/quote]

Yes, pretty much. I’d absolutely defer to CT on when this point is – the general principle though is doing it before catecholamines will blunt insulin production.

That isn’t happening during the things you mention, and so as you say the zero point should be after that.

Different people warm up differently. For many, the first few minutes of warm up may well not be energetic enough to likely blunt insulin production, so myself, I put the zero point right before work that is enough to really be exercising instead of just beginning to get the joints loosened up, some blood flowing and so forth.

For example (I might have posted it in this thread already) I figure time zero as not being when I start doing empty bar sets of box squats (as well as, not mentioned, extremely light leg presses)to begin warming up, but count time zero from when the first plates get added to the squat bar.

Because I doubt insulin production is being blunted by that very light work.

519

[quote]zraw wrote:

Bill ! If Anaconda wasnt available , what would you use DURING the workout to maximize the benefits? Thanks

Edit : Assuming you did the protocol Thib outlined :

-90 Alpha-GPC
-45 2 FINiBARs
-30 2 Surge Workout Fuel
-15 2 Surge Recovery

+60 20g casein hydrolysate

[/quote]

To get partway there while not having Anaconda and having to substitute, and having casein hydrolysate, I’d recommend 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel with 15 g (approx) added CH at the start of the workout. The casein hydrolysate should be very principally di and tripeptides: though that is not the entire measure of things, it’s a necessary one.

If in any sense feeling like more sustenance could be used by around the half hour point, half that same amount again at the half hour point would be good. If it doesn’t feel like it would help you, I expect you’d do fine without the midway refuel.

520

[quote]thestudbeast wrote:
He’s saying count the start of your work out as your first heavy set, not your streching, posing in the mirror while secretly hoping the cardio bunnies are watching but the first set you actually shift some weight. Take this 15min pre.
[/quote]

Not a problem with the bunnies, I work out at home. See the Home Gym recommendations thread.

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