Questions About Peri-Workout Nutrition

Training
481

Coach Thibaudeau,

I really would appreciate your help!

I changed my para-workout nutrition to this -

-60 2 caps Alpha-GPC

-40 2 FiniBars

-30 2 scoops Workout Fuel

-15 2 Scoops Surge Recovery

During Workout - sip 1 scoop Surge Recovery

I have honestly felt terrible for the first 2/3 of the workout. As a matter of fact, it’s the worst I have ever felt during any training session I’ve ever been in. I feel nautious, bloated and dizzy.

It literally hinders my performance, even though I’m taking the Alpha GPC, I’ve noticed no strength increases. My workouts usually last between 1 to 1 1/2 hours. After about 45 minutes or so, I start feeling like all that stuff in my stomach is actually starting to pass through and digest, and at this time I start feeling a little better.

Before I was simply doing this -

-30 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel

Immediatly after workout - 2 1/2 scoops Surge Recovery

  • 2 hours - big carb/protein meal

During this time (2 1/2 months), my energy levels in the gym were the best they had ever been and my progress was extremely good. After I incorporated Surge Workout Fuel (2 1/2 months ago), I took my training intensity to a whole new level.

My strength had been progressing almost every workout and I put on 18 pounds of mostly muscle. After putting on 18 pounds, my pullup went from 10 reps at body weight to 17.

I realize that the studies show that we should spike insulin BEFORE workouts, and I want to do the best that science has to offer, however I feel terrible when trying to stick to that protocol.

What would you suggest? Is it something that I should keep doing and eventualy, I’ll adapt to it?

I would really appreciate your input on this.

Thank you for your time!

482

[quote]KeepAwaySheeple wrote:
Ok so I’ve used this protocol two times now and each time I felt extremely nautious and like absolute shit during my workouts -

W-30 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
W-15 2 scoops Surge Recovery
During 1 scoop Surge Recovery

Before, when I was doing this protocol (and put on 18 pounds of muscle in 2 months) I felt great during workouts -

W-15 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
Imediately after workout - 2 scoops Surge Recovery

I’m just being honest. When I do the first protocol, I just don’t feel well during workouts, I feel like I just need lay down in between sets and my stomach feels bloated.

Has anyone else experienced this at first and then maybe your body got used to it??[/quote]

–
Yes. I gave the full protocol (with FINiBARS, no Anaconda) a try 4 times in the past week and a half.

The thing is, I’ve seen CT recommend using Recovery or a FINiBAR while training. So I tried it both ways a few times, and definately felt better when eating a finibar half way through the workout instead of sipping on 1 scoop Recovery during the entire workout. This might also make a difference for you.

I assumed the shitty feeling I got from sipping Recovery during the workout had a lot to do with ignesting sugar while working out, but only CT could really provide clarity on this.

Also, I didn’t experience any noticable strength increase or weight change from that short period of time using the protocol, either. I’ll keep it up for a few more weeks though. If it doesn’t do much for me, I’ll try using the supps as originally designed to see what happens (never used them before).

483


Christian,

Thanks for sharing your expertise. I’m very excited about the new training and nutrition protocols that you’re working on. With regard to the following two programs, what recommendations would you make in adjusting the doses relative to an individuals body weight and or lean muscle mass?

Thank you and hope you’re well.

Kelly Amidon

PROTOCOL 1 (1-3 times per week, when working on a weak area)
Workout - 60 = Alpha-GPC
W - 40 = 1 FINiBAR
W - 30 = 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
W - 15 = 2 scoops Surge Recovery
During workout (early half) = 1 FINiBAR
During workout (later half) = 1 scoop Surge Workout Fuel
W + 15 = Grow! Whey 2 scoops
W + 90 minutes = Grow! Whey 2 scoops

PROTOCOL 2 (other workouts)
Workout - 60 = Alpha-GPC
W - 40 = 1 FINiBAR
W - 30 = 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
During workout (early half) = 1 FINiBAR
During workout (later half) = 1 scoop Surge Workout Fuel
W + 15 = 1 scoop Surge Recovery, 1 scoop Grow! Whey
W + 90 = Grow! Whey 2 scoops

484

[quote]mstorm wrote:
KeepAwaySheeple wrote:
Ok so I’ve used this protocol two times now and each time I felt extremely nautious and like absolute shit during my workouts -

W-30 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
W-15 2 scoops Surge Recovery
During 1 scoop Surge Recovery

Before, when I was doing this protocol (and put on 18 pounds of muscle in 2 months) I felt great during workouts -

W-15 2 scoops Surge Workout Fuel
Imediately after workout - 2 scoops Surge Recovery

I’m just being honest. When I do the first protocol, I just don’t feel well during workouts, I feel like I just need lay down in between sets and my stomach feels bloated.

Has anyone else experienced this at first and then maybe your body got used to it??

–
Yes. I gave the full protocol (with FINiBARS, no Anaconda) a try 4 times in the past week and a half.

The thing is, I’ve seen CT recommend using Recovery or a FINiBAR while training. So I tried it both ways a few times, and definately felt better when eating a finibar half way through the workout instead of sipping on 1 scoop Recovery during the entire workout. This might also make a difference for you.

I assumed the shitty feeling I got from sipping Recovery during the workout had a lot to do with ignesting sugar while working out, but only CT could really provide clarity on this.
[/quote]

While awaiting a more authoritative answer from CT, it wouldn’t have to be the glucose.

I have noticed that lifters have differing tolerance to amount of even water taken in during a workout.

Myself, back when I used the older protocol of simply Surge Recovery before and after or modified versions of that (and with nothing during) I’d routinely drink a total of what I’m sure must have considerably exceeded a quart of water from the water fountain during the workout. Probably sometimes pushed 2 quarts. No problem for me at all: in fact I very much felt I needed it.

I’ve known other guys who can barely stand a few sips or even strongly prefer to have absolutely nothing. They just don’t feel good if they have the water.

As personal opinion, I expect this is from how their brains process those particular stimuli. For whatever reason, in that situation, the feeling of having fluid in the stomach or more than a trace is translated to “don’t feel good.”

Maybe a few years later that might be unlearned but as of the present moment and near future, that’s the way it’s going to be for those guys.

Similarly for those doing fine with small amounts but not with amounts such as are fine for me.

Physically, I just don’t see how the water can be causing an actual problem. Therefore I think it is feeling from how the brain has learned to process inputs, but that doesn’t make it any less real. It is an interfering factor for them that should be avoided.

On the glucose, your one scoop is only 25. That’s only 100 calories worth. You are burning energy at a far greater rate. For this reason unless you are carb intolerant I’d question whether blood sugar is going to any high level.

But that doesn’t mean your brain may not process that input, in that situation, as being “I don’t feel good” and thus have exactly that result.

Not from the blood glucose levels themselves perhaps, but from the perception. Doesn’t make it less real.

With the FINiBARs you are having a different perception, whether because of less fluid or because of this being perceived differently than drinking a glucose-rich solution.

Whatever the cause, do what works best for you (which of course you already have decided.) Either way functions just fine.

485

Christian,

Forgive me if this thread is reserved exclusively for your new protocol, but wasn’t sure where else to ask general para nutrition questions.

Let me preface my question by saying I’m not trying to imitate or find a cheaper way to replicate your protocol. I simply want to know the best way to use the supplements I already have.

Right now my budget (and supply) allows me to consume 30-40 grams of BCAA on training days. Seeing how your methods are always evolving based on your experiences: when and how should I be ingesting them? During my workout? 30-45 minutes before? Or at a completely different time?

Also, I’ve been mixing my BCAA with Welch’s 100% grape juice. Is this slowing down the absorption of BCAA?

Thanks

486

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

While awaiting a more authoritative answer from CT, it wouldn’t have to be the glucose.

I have noticed that lifters have differing tolerance to amount of even water taken in during a workout.

Myself, back when I used the older protocol of simply Surge Recovery before and after or modified versions of that (and with nothing during) I’d routinely drink a total of what I’m sure must have considerably exceeded a quart of water from the water fountain during the workout. Probably sometimes pushed 2 quarts. No problem for me at all: in fact I very much felt I needed it.

I’ve known other guys who can barely stand a few sips or even strongly prefer to have absolutely nothing. They just don’t feel good if they have the water.

As personal opinion, I expect this is from how their brains process those particular stimuli. For whatever reason, in that situation, the feeling of having fluid in the stomach or more than a trace is translated to “don’t feel good.”

Maybe a few years later that might be unlearned but as of the present moment and near future, that’s the way it’s going to be for those guys.

Similarly for those doing fine with small amounts but not with amounts such as are fine for me.

Physically, I just don’t see how the water can be causing an actual problem. Therefore I think it is feeling from how the brain has learned to process inputs, but that doesn’t make it any less real. It is an interfering factor for them that should be avoided.

On the glucose, your one scoop is only 25. That’s only 100 calories worth. You are burning energy at a far greater rate. For this reason unless you are carb intolerant I’d question whether blood sugar is going to any high level.

But that doesn’t mean your brain may not process that input, in that situation, as being “I don’t feel good” and thus have exactly that result.

Not from the blood glucose levels themselves perhaps, but from the perception. Doesn’t make it less real.

With the FINiBARs you are having a different perception, whether because of less fluid or because of this being perceived differently than drinking a glucose-rich solution.

Whatever the cause, do what works best for you (which of course you already have decided.) Either way functions just fine.
[/quote]

Thanks for the input Bill.

When I follow the new protocol I have the FINiBAR(s) and feel fine, then have the Surge Workout Fuel and feel fine, then when I drink the Surge Recovery 15 minutes later, I just feel terrible. The sensations are kind of a jittery, shakiness and it also feels like my heart starts racing.

I just don’t see how taking in this much can be good at all. I mean the FINiBARs, Surgw Workout Fuel AND Surge Recovery ALL within an hour of each other? What I really don’t understand is how all these things were designed to be taken alone preferably on an empty stomach, now we are being told it’s good to take all this in basically at once.

I’m really confused as to why Surge Recovery gets taken 15 minutes after Surge Workout Fuel. Does that really give the body any time to absorb all that? When I take the Recovery, the Surge Workout Fuel is still sloshing around in my stomach and I’m burping it up.

So why not just mix Surge Recovery and Surge Workout Fuel together because that is what it feels like in my stomach anyways. Taking in both of these supplements within 15 minutes of each other does not allow enough time for each one to do its specific job.

To me it completely changes the formulas into one big lop of shit because that’s how I feel when ingesting them so close together. Workout Fuel alone is awesome, Recovery alone after workouts is awesome and never do I experience the terrible sensations that I do when ingesting both at the same time.

I mean the whole article about the “3rd Law of Muscle” for Surge Workout Fuel is based on taking it by itself before workouts. Not mixing it with Surge Recovery.

Again that is when I feel like shit is when I drink the Surge Recovery 15 minutes AFTER the Surge Workout Fuel. When I was doing it the traditional way, Surge Workout Fuel before workout, Surge Recovery after workout, I felt great. And how can I really dispute the gains I experienced?

One more thing, I realize that discoveries are made and studies are done. What I’m not understanding is when they designed Surge Recovery 8 years ago, weren’t they doing “studies” back then too?

I would think that all the statements that were made about the window of opportunity after workouts were based off “studies”. Now we are being told that insulin sensitivity is low after workouts? How did they not know this 8 years ago? Again I know new research suggests otherwise, but what research were they basing all the claims on Surge Recovery in the first place?

487

I’m convinced – not from knowing any scientific data on it but from practical observations – that people vary quite considerably in stomach emptying rates.

If you’re “sloshing around” with a given protocol, then yes it sounds as if the timing is not matching up with your particular situation.

On your last point: I think it is a question of lacking communication, the lack not being your part but a lack in how things are being expressed. Now I’m not really or at all entitled to go and say Well it should have been said this way, but I would have put it something like this:

It used to be that pre- and during-workout nutrition was quite lacking, even from the simplest viewpoint of looking at calories taken in versus calories burned. Lifters typically trained on nothing but perhaps a sub-300 calorie protein shake or light meal taken one or two hours earlier, or even trained on an empty stomach. This would be the case even with early morning training.

This resulted in the muscles actually accumulating a deficit in the hours between the last intake of food and the end of the workout. Simply being awake for that perhaps 3 hour period already accounts for probably about 400 calories: the workout may well burn another 400 calories or more. And what was taken in during that timeframe? Maybe 300 calories. Maybe 400.

And then after that, it was common for lifters to still not do anything in particular to even catch up, let alone get ahead.

So at the end of the workout, the muscles were about screaming for relief, more than ready to take in glucose and amino acids.

The early approach to improving this situation was providing a very rapidly absorbed form of protein – whey hydrolysate – with a suitable amount of glucose as well as branched chain amino acids for use immediately after the workout to catch up on this deficit.

This gave very considerably improved results compared to just having a regular protein shake post-workout or waiting to have a regular meal, which furthermore would be even more slowly absorbed.

Along the way, it was figured that perhaps it would be better to, before the workout, first replenish or partially replenish any caloric energy deficit from the last few hours and to supply nutrients toward the work that was about to be done, as well as to have, after the workout, a post-workout drink such as described above.

But this approach still did not provide even as much caloric energy before the workout as was likely to be burned during the workout, and therefore at a time when ideally the muscles would be taking in a surplus of amino acids and glucose, instead a deficit was still being run.

We have now learned that when pre- and during-workout nutrition is sufficient to not only correct any deficit going into the workout, but also to, in the total, provide a surplus relative to the amount actually burned, results are better yet.

I am sure, simply from the literature familiarity I have with his work, that Dr. Lowery is correct that a greater insulin response is possible pre-workout than post-workout.

And that is something usefully exploited.

It doesn’t mean that, with pre- and during-workout nutrition providing less energy than being burned at the time, that the previous post-workout drink approach wasn’t quite superior to failing to have the post-workout drink.

It also doesn’t mean that in the past the muscles couldn’t take in the glucose post-workout with Surge Recovery as the post-workout drink.

I suppose but do not know that the situation of being able to absorb the glucose at the immediate post-workout time is from a combination of residual improved non-insulin-mediated glucose uptake remaining from just having exercised – I doubt it turns off like a light switch 60 seconds after your last set – plus what insulin effect there is.

Of course, if the article were written like that most would have clicked the page shut about halfway through that tedious and/or verbose explanation.

488

Oh, and as to whether all that stacked together is too much:

I expect that it will be found that some individuals – not just known diabetics – are not carb tolerant enough to do well with all this stacked together.

However the amount is not in excess of what Lowery et al in their published research have shown highly effective. It’s also not more than I have used in the past personally. It’s better timed and better done and has added factors I didn’t have, though.

Plus, from reading about this project and Tim talking with me about it, I’ve learned that if I follow the protocol, there’s no need for me to hit the CiCi’s pizza buffet an hour after the workout.

And I have definitely found the protocol works better, even having just 2 scoops of whey post workout and then nothing for 3 hours till having the second (and in my case last) pulse of the day, than my old personal method plus the CiCi’s buffet. And results in cutting up rather than fattening up.

489

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Plus, from reading about this project and Tim talking with me about it, I’ve learned that if I follow the protocol, there’s no need for me to hit the CiCi’s pizza buffet an hour after the workout.
[/quote]

sadly, this is my favorite part of para-workout nutrition.

490

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

Along the way, it was figured that perhaps it would be better to, before the workout, first replenish or partially replenish any caloric energy deficit from the last few hours and to supply nutrients toward the work that was about to be done, as well as to have, after the workout, a post-workout drink such as described above.

But this approach still did not provide even as much caloric energy before the workout as was likely to be burned during the workout, and therefore at a time when ideally the muscles would be taking in a surplus of amino acids and glucose, instead a deficit was still being run.

We have now learned that when pre- and during-workout nutrition is sufficient to not only correct any deficit going into the workout, but also to, in the total, provide a surplus relative to the amount actually burned, results are better yet.
[/quote]

Bill again I really appreciate your input on this.

When you speak of the deficit what about people that are eating quality protein every 2 hours?

I work out at 6:00pm, by this time I have already eaten 4 meals, each containing -

protein 40-60 grams
carbs 40-80 grams

TOTAL

protein 200 grams
carbs 200 grams

Then I would have Surge Workout Fuel before training and Surge Recovery after training. So how would I be at a deficit before my workout with all the protein I have already consumned? I work in an office so other than my workouts, I’m not burning tons of calories. And how could I be at a deficit when taking Surge Workout Fuel alone which is what it was intended for - to get you through the toughest workouts by supplying you with just what your muscles need for intense training.

And once more how could I be at a deficit after training when Surge Workout Fuel got me through it and Surge Recovery replenished once again after?

This whole concept is seaming more and more shaky to me. Why are FINiBARs ideal when a 50 dollar tub of Surge Workout Fuel was supposed to give the elite athlete everything they needed for the most grueling workouts imaginable?

Now ideally FINiBARs are needed too? What are FINiBARs doing that Surge Workout Fuel is not? And since when is peanut butter good before workouts when it gets mixed with Surge Workout Fuel? I would think a bunch of fat and carbs would be bad. I’m still sticking to John Berardi’s rule of not mixing too much fat with carbs.

Bill, I would love your take again, you are being very helpful, thank you.

491

Hey CT

Regarding the recent PROTOCOL, using workout fuel, Surge recovery etc…which I have no doubt works wonders for gaining mass, but my question is, what if you are insulin resistant?

Would one be able to simply use the theory but using a no carb para-workout plan, such as taking in glutamine pre-workout to spike insulin and fast protein during/after etc.

From my understanding, large doses of glutamine will still spike insuline and shuttle the amino acids and protein into the muscle. I know this will not be anywhere near OPTIMAL comparingly, but would it be superior to taking the regular no carb post workout shake - glutamine,glycine and whey?

I suppose a test would be the only way to answer this.

Thanks,
GJ

492

[quote]Gymjunkie wrote:
Hey CT

Regarding the recent PROTOCOL, using workout fuel, Surge recovery etc…which I have no doubt works wonders for gaining mass, but my question is, what if you are insulin resistant?

Would one be able to simply use the theory but using a no carb para-workout plan, such as taking in glutamine pre-workout to spike insulin and fast protein during/after etc.

From my understanding, large doses of glutamine will still spike insuline and shuttle the amino acids and protein into the muscle. I know this will not be anywhere near OPTIMAL comparingly, but would it be superior to taking the regular no carb post workout shake - glutamine,glycine and whey?

I suppose a test would be the only way to answer this.

Thanks,
GJ[/quote]

Most people who are insulin resistant are overweight. The more fat you have the more insulin your body releases to get the same response, and vise versa. Unless someone has type I diabetes or is over 20% bf, they should be able to get the spikes of insulin necessary for the proper function of this protocol, I would assume.

And if someone is insulin resistant, using glutamine would have the same effect as a carb, it would generate insulin, and if they were resistant, then they would need more insulin to get the same effect as someone who wasn’t. Like with type 2 diabetes, these people are so insulin resistant they need shots of insulin to get the shit to start working and reducing their blood sugar levels.

I’m fairly confident on all this stuff, but could be wrong.

493

[quote]KeepAwaySheeple wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:

Along the way, it was figured that perhaps it would be better to, before the workout, first replenish or partially replenish any caloric energy deficit from the last few hours and to supply nutrients toward the work that was about to be done, as well as to have, after the workout, a post-workout drink such as described above.

But this approach still did not provide even as much caloric energy before the workout as was likely to be burned during the workout, and therefore at a time when ideally the muscles would be taking in a surplus of amino acids and glucose, instead a deficit was still being run.

We have now learned that when pre- and during-workout nutrition is sufficient to not only correct any deficit going into the workout, but also to, in the total, provide a surplus relative to the amount actually burned, results are better yet.

Bill again I really appreciate your input on this.

When you speak of the deficit what about people that are eating quality protein every 2 hours?

I work out at 6:00pm, by this time I have already eaten 4 meals, each containing -

protein 40-60 grams
carbs 40-80 grams

TOTAL

protein 200 grams
carbs 200 grams

Then I would have Surge Workout Fuel before training and Surge Recovery after training. So how would I be at a deficit before my workout with all the protein I have already consumned? I work in an office so other than my workouts, I’m not burning tons of calories. And how could I be at a deficit when taking Surge Workout Fuel alone which is what it was intended for - to get you through the toughest workouts by supplying you with just what your muscles need for intense training.

And once more how could I be at a deficit after training when Surge Workout Fuel got me through it and Surge Recovery replenished once again after?

This whole concept is seaming more and more shaky to me. Why are FINiBARs ideal when a 50 dollar tub of Surge Workout Fuel was supposed to give the elite athlete everything they needed for the most grueling workouts imaginable?

Now ideally FINiBARs are needed too? What are FINiBARs doing that Surge Workout Fuel is not? And since when is peanut butter good before workouts when it gets mixed with Surge Workout Fuel? I would think a bunch of fat and carbs would be bad. I’m still sticking to John Berardi’s rule of not mixing too much fat with carbs.

Bill, I would love your take again, you are being very helpful, thank you.

[/quote]

I think your missing the point of all this stuff entirely.

Bill was explaining the reasoning behind the development of “para-workout nutrition” from past, present, and future perspectives. Detailing from the dawn of bodybuilding what most lifters would do, eat very little, maybe drink a cub of coffee and have some toast with peanut butter, go workout, have another snack or something, and be down about 500 calories while they go about their day. I don’t think he was talking about you specifically or your schedule. I know Dave Draper worked out like this for a number of years, and so did probably many others.

So lets walk through exactly what each of these items in this protocol is supposed to do and HOW it does it. And it’s worth to note that you probably shouldn’t have eaten within 2 hours or so of the start of your workout, otherwise you will definitely be having some digestion issues.

First the Alpha GPC - Boosts GH during and post exercise (pretty self explanatory)

FINiBAR - gives you 39g of low glycemic carbs, these will be your “baseline” for your blood sugar so you don’t crash for the next 3 hours or so and have a sustained baseline of energy. (Palatinose, Rice Olgidextrin) The 13g of protein is an added bonus. (Whey Isolate)

Surge Workout Fuel - Supplies amino acid L-Luecine, More Rice Oligdextrin, More Palatinose, some Dextrose, Electrolytes, Beta-Alanine, and Citruline Mallate. This has low-glycemic and high-glycemic carbs to get the electros in your muscle fast, as well as keep them there for a sustained period of time (hence both low and high glycemic carbs). This also supplies the beta-alanine and citruline mallate to prevent too much lactic acid build up and basicly improve your recovery ability so you can keep on going and push through the burn! The Leucine helps keep you in an anabolic state as well.

Surge Recovery - Supplies Dextrose, and Maltodextrin, and Whey Hydrolysate, and a little bit of casein. This is the first major insulin spike, lots of high glycemic carbs, some low glycemic carbs, and a fast-absorbed pre-digested protein that also aids in spiking insulin as well as making sure plenty of amino acids are available to be used by your soon to be dominated musculature (whey/casein hydrolysate).

Now during the workout you drink more surge recovery (or anaconda) this is to keep your insulin levels high as a kite so your muscles are absorbing all this good stuff while they are getting pummeled, as well as making sure you are continually injecting pre-digested proteins into your body (most of these proteins are generally absorbed into your small intestine on the way to the stomach in a matter of minutes, so they don’t have to be digested, speaking of the whey/casein hydrolysates).

So all of these things done pre-during workout are to ensure that as your muscles are being broken down, they are having glycogen and free-amino’s, di-tri peptides and everything in the world thrown at them, so they can begin rebuilding as they are being broken down. It’s really quite fascinating to think about and I’m really excited to see the results some of the people on here will get. I mean people are already talking about lean mass gains while losing fat with just the hydrolysate proteins added to their routines, so a whole nutrition plan based around the workout specifically designed to take advantage of these proteins has quite a bit of potential.

Sooo… that’s about it. So if you are still having trouble grasping this concept, then you should maybe just:

A) Follow the protocol and put all your faith into its effectiveness knowing that Biotest won’t steer you wrong.

B) Just take what parts of the protocol work for you, and leave the rest. Taking whatever gains may come.

C) Screw the protocol and do whatever you feel works best for you, knowing that you know your body better than anyone else.

So this is my little summary of this stuff, I think it’s 90+% accurate, but Bill and CT and Nate can correct me on anything I may have screwed up, and sorry for all the spelling errors in some of the names of the ingredients.

494

On how you can be in the energy deficit I mentioned:

I will give a personal example. Prior to the release of Surge Recovery my standard protocol was:

-60 minutes: 1 Met-Rx shake. 270 calories if I recall correctly.
Immediately pre-workout: Nothing.

So that’s a 2 hour time frame. Resting metabolism – being alive, awake, and breathing those two hours – accounts for probably all of those 270 calories. Maybe 400-500 was burned in the workout.

Not only did the muscles have no chance to run “in the positive” in terms of what they took in versus burned, instead they were way in the negative during the workout.

This would also be true for many who instead had a not-overly-heavy meal 2 hours before the workout, which was another common practice of the day. (As was training on an empty stomach, for that matter.)

OK, let’s jump ahead 2 steps and look at the Double Surge protocol:

Let’s assume that whatever nutrition was had prior to the pre-workout Surge was an amount accurately carrying one over to the pre-workout drink, so no deficit at that point. (Of course, for many that wouldn’t be the case, particularly if training first thing in the morning, but let’s figure it that way.)

So now, immediately pre-workout, there’s 330 calores from the Surge.

Is that enough for a positive balance for one hour of hard work?

Nope. Most assuredly it’s still running a deficit.

495

(Can’t simply edit the above as it hasn’t appeared yet.)

That last example would apply to your case that you described.

I am not saying you were entering into a caloric deficit for the day during your workout.

What I am saying in terms of what was immediately the case during the workout, comparing rate of nutrients entering bloodstream to rate at which the muscles are consuming energy, with your above protocol you had to have been running a deficit during the workout.

496

Sheeple, to give a simpleton explanation for this deficit talk, if you’re burning several hundred calories in your workout, and you only have taken a few calories short term (via Surge or gatorade or whatever), then your body’s going to have to tape regular systems to get the energy it needs. Muscle glycogen, liver glycogen, fat, etc.

Also, in your particular case, it’s the Surge Recovery that makes you feel like ass during the workout, right? I wonder if it is specifically the insulin response that’s jacking you up, from all the fast sugars in the Surge Recovery? One solution might be more carbs to keep you on the high during the workout.

I would probably recommend the simple advide of not doing things that make you feel like ass. Maybe drop the surge recovery beforehand, and stick with just finibar + SWF. You’d still probably want a way to get a little bit of protein (Anaconda or casein hydrolysate or anything) pre workout at well. Maybe Surge Recovery afterwards, if that doesn’t send you into a diabetic coma.

497

[quote]skohcl wrote:
I think your missing the point of all this stuff entirely.

Bill was explaining the reasoning behind the development of “para-workout nutrition” from past, present, and future perspectives. Detailing from the dawn of bodybuilding what most lifters would do, eat very little, maybe drink a cub of coffee and have some toast with peanut butter, go workout, have another snack or something, and be down about 500 calories while they go about their day. I don’t think he was talking about you specifically or your schedule. I know Dave Draper worked out like this for a number of years, and so did probably many others.

So lets walk through exactly what each of these items in this protocol is supposed to do and HOW it does it. And it’s worth to note that you probably shouldn’t have eaten within 2 hours or so of the start of your workout, otherwise you will definitely be having some digestion issues.

First the Alpha GPC - Boosts GH during and post exercise (pretty self explanatory)

FINiBAR - gives you 39g of low glycemic carbs, these will be your “baseline” for your blood sugar so you don’t crash for the next 3 hours or so and have a sustained baseline of energy. (Palatinose, Rice Olgidextrin) The 13g of protein is an added bonus. (Whey Isolate)

Surge Workout Fuel - Supplies amino acid L-Luecine, More Rice Oligdextrin, More Palatinose, some Dextrose, Electrolytes, Beta-Alanine, and Citruline Mallate. This has low-glycemic and high-glycemic carbs to get the electros in your muscle fast, as well as keep them there for a sustained period of time (hence both low and high glycemic carbs). This also supplies the beta-alanine and citruline mallate to prevent too much lactic acid build up and basicly improve your recovery ability so you can keep on going and push through the burn! The Leucine helps keep you in an anabolic state as well.

Surge Recovery - Supplies Dextrose, and Maltodextrin, and Whey Hydrolysate, and a little bit of casein. This is the first major insulin spike, lots of high glycemic carbs, some low glycemic carbs, and a fast-absorbed pre-digested protein that also aids in spiking insulin as well as making sure plenty of amino acids are available to be used by your soon to be dominated musculature (whey/casein hydrolysate).

Now during the workout you drink more surge recovery (or anaconda) this is to keep your insulin levels high as a kite so your muscles are absorbing all this good stuff while they are getting pummeled, as well as making sure you are continually injecting pre-digested proteins into your body (most of these proteins are generally absorbed into your small intestine on the way to the stomach in a matter of minutes, so they don’t have to be digested, speaking of the whey/casein hydrolysates).

So all of these things done pre-during workout are to ensure that as your muscles are being broken down, they are having glycogen and free-amino’s, di-tri peptides and everything in the world thrown at them, so they can begin rebuilding as they are being broken down. It’s really quite fascinating to think about and I’m really excited to see the results some of the people on here will get. I mean people are already talking about lean mass gains while losing fat with just the hydrolysate proteins added to their routines, so a whole nutrition plan based around the workout specifically designed to take advantage of these proteins has quite a bit of potential.

Sooo… that’s about it. So if you are still having trouble grasping this concept, then you should maybe just:

A) Follow the protocol and put all your faith into its effectiveness knowing that Biotest won’t steer you wrong.

B) Just take what parts of the protocol work for you, and leave the rest. Taking whatever gains may come.

C) Screw the protocol and do whatever you feel works best for you, knowing that you know your body better than anyone else.

So this is my little summary of this stuff, I think it’s 90+% accurate, but Bill and CT and Nate can correct me on anything I may have screwed up, and sorry for all the spelling errors in some of the names of the ingredients.[/quote]

No I’m not missing any points. I have read what has been said about what each supplement is supposed to do. And I realize that Bill was speaking of how para wokrout nutrition used to be, however the scare that someone would be at a deficit before training is still here which is the point of paraworkout nutrition in the first place. So I was asking him how I could be at a deficit.

As for the functions/purpose of each supplements, I’ve already read all this. My problem is, how can eating 2 Finibars, then 20 minutes later pounding Workout Fuel down, then 15 minutes later pounding Recovery down not completely ruin the formulas and cause discomfort considering they are all in your stomach at the same time? They weren’t designed for that purpose and I feel it’s a waste of my money to continue to do that. Surge Workout Fuel should be more than enough, actually it has been stated that’s it’s overkill for most people, yet hey, lets add two Finibars AND a serving of Recovery all within minutes of each other??? To me THAT is overkill and actually counter productive.

498

[quote]EasyRhino wrote:
Sheeple, to give a simpleton explanation for this deficit talk, if you’re burning several hundred calories in your workout, and you only have taken a few calories short term (via Surge or gatorade or whatever), then your body’s going to have to tape regular systems to get the energy it needs. Muscle glycogen, liver glycogen, fat, etc.

Also, in your particular case, it’s the Surge Recovery that makes you feel like ass during the workout, right? I wonder if it is specifically the insulin response that’s jacking you up, from all the fast sugars in the Surge Recovery? One solution might be more carbs to keep you on the high during the workout.

I would probably recommend the simple advide of not doing things that make you feel like ass. Maybe drop the surge recovery beforehand, and stick with just finibar + SWF. You’d still probably want a way to get a little bit of protein (Anaconda or casein hydrolysate or anything) pre workout at well. Maybe Surge Recovery afterwards, if that doesn’t send you into a diabetic coma.[/quote]

I appreciate the input from everyone. I think that you guys aren’t understanding what I’m saying.

It’s not the Surge Recovery that makes me feel like ass, it’s the combination of Finibars, Workout Fuel AND Recovery that makes me feel like shit. When I take JUST Recovery, I feel fine. When I take JUST Workout Fuel, I feel more than fine, I feel great.

The whole point that I’m trying to make is I think the timing doesn’t make any sense. To have that much stuff in your stomach at the same time is strange, considering they are all supplements - simple sugars, etc. It’s not like you are eating a high fiber meal, it’s not so much the volume as it is the content, that much sugar that fast RIGHT before a workout? I can’t imagine other people not experiencing what I do when doing this.

499

Well, don’t do it if you think so.

And certainly don’t do a given combination if it is making you feel off.

However, to say that what CT is doing for himself, for those he has trained, or that what I am doing for myself presently (which is similar and is derived from what CT has written) is “counterproductive” is I think unwarranted.

It’s certainly not what I’ve found myself.

On your raising the questions of supposed incompatability: FINiBARs really have only food in them. Special carbs, yes, but food. They are energy and macronutrient sources. When more of that is needed, saying that using FINiBARs that way is not what they are designed for could be called technically correct as there was no original intention for them to be combined that way, but in the greater sense not the case at all. They were designed to deliver what they are delivering here.

On having Surge Recovery right before along with everything else: Sure, that hadn’t been anticipated. If there were an issue such as Surge Recovery (stupidly, if it did, but there are such supplement products) delivering say some substantial percentage of iron per serving, and Anaconda and SWF did too and the combination was therefore excessive, then sure. The combination would be bad.

But Surge Recovery, used as CT has discussed, does not add anything that shouldn’t be added.

There are no incompatability issues.

Except perhaps for a given person’s stomach or the feelings they perceive from food intake: they might be incompatible in that sense for you, in which case adjustment is called for.

500

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
What I am saying in terms of what was immediately the case during the workout, comparing rate of nutrients entering bloodstream to rate at which the muscles are consuming energy, with your above protocol you had to have been running a deficit during the workout. [/quote]

So basically Surge Workout Fuel doesn’t do what it claims to do then? We need to do this new protocol and buy more supplements to ensure we don’t enter a deficit during workouts?

If I was running a deficit during all those grueling workouts, how did I manage to put on 18 pounds of muscle in 2 1/2 months while on the old protocol? When I put on this weight, all I did was Surge Workout Fuel before. And I wasn’t even spiking insulin before workouts, it was being done after with Recovery. Not just a size increase either, my strength gains were matched as my pull up went from 10 at bodyweight to 17 and that is with the 18 pounds that I put on.