Questions About Peri-Workout Nutrition

Training
241

Coach,

It seems like no one has heard from David Barr in a while, but you said that he was one of the people who influence this protocol. I was reading an article on Elitefts.com regarding his opinion on Vitargo S2 and he said that spiking insulin with that pre-workout was surprisingly effective for him.

Did this influence you at all/would you recommend Vitargo S2 as a pre-workout alternative to the current protocol? (Not to say I would take it seeing that I love the current one) just a question.

Thanks,

Evan

242

[quote]dheeel wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Dan Thompson wrote:

  1. How long of a training session is this designed for? I currently train for 45-60 minutes and am assuming that this protocol is designed for such, but want to make sure.

  2. I currently eat about 300-400 more calories outside of the para-workout window (and about 100-200 more immediately afterward) on my priority days (legs and back). Would you recommend keeping these excess non-workout calories when using this protocol, or will the extra Surge Recovery and Whey take care of it?

Thank you for your time,

DT

  1. Normally 60 - 75 minutes

  2. It will take care of it.

Hi CT

For sessions which last 90-120 minutes how would adjust the protocol?

Thanks[/quote]

I should state clearly when I say adjust I mean how would I ADD to it for a longer duration 90-120 min. Iā€™m extra SWF and / or FINIbar would be added during the workout - does that sound right Coach?

243

[quote]Pergam_X wrote:

as a student in Europe, i can only dream of spending 16$ per workout, even 10$ is out of this world, let alone buy Biotest products.(think double price of what anyone in USA is paying because of shipping and customs)[/quote]

Several have, understandably, posted concerns about cost.

No one though seems to have pointed out or be figuring that it has to be, or should be, looked at in terms of change in cost. Because your cost for regular meals is reduced and that ought to be subtracted out.

There have been some threads here where people posted how much they spent on food and Iā€™ve been astounded by how low the figures sometimes were. But others spent about what I do. For the most part, for me modest meals of ā€œreal foodā€ average at least $3 each, whether as a frozen meal heated in the oven, or some meat plus some vegetables or fruits, etc. They can easily average more.

At bare minimum myself I save at least $6 via the calories replaced by specific workout nutrition, probably $9.

Now if someone eats rice, beans, and not much of the cheapest meat they can get, then of course the food would be a lot less than that, and this would be less of a factor.

So rather than figuring $X and being astounded by the number, figure $X minus however much money one would be spending on the meals now replaced.

On your costs for shipping and customs, yes, that has to be awful. :frowning:

244

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Pergam_X wrote:

as a student in Europe, i can only dream of spending 16$ per workout, even 10$ is out of this world, let alone buy Biotest products.(think double price of what anyone in USA is paying because of shipping and customs)

Several have, understandably, posted concerns about cost.

No one though seems to have pointed out or be figuring that it has to be, or should be, looked at in terms of change in cost. Because your cost for regular meals is reduced and that ought to be subtracted out.

There have been some threads here where people posted how much they spent on food and Iā€™ve been astounded by how low the figures sometimes were. But others spent about what I do. For the most part, for me modest meals of ā€œreal foodā€ average at least $3 each, whether as a frozen meal heated in the oven, or some meat plus some vegetables or fruits, etc. They can easily average more.

At bare minimum myself I save at least $6 via the calories replaced by specific workout nutrition, probably $9.

Now if someone eats rice, beans, and not much of the cheapest meat they can get, then of course the food would be a lot less than that, and this would be less of a factor.

So rather than figuring $X and being astounded by the number, figure $X minus however much money one would be spending on the meals now replaced.

On your costs for shipping and customs, yes, that has to be awful. :frowning:

[/quote]

Hello Bill. Thanks for your response and feedback.

However, my current protocol, which includes Dextrose + maltodextrine, whey hydrolysate, l-leucine, citrulline malate, Beta alanine and creatine monohydrate, costs no more than 3$ per workout at very decent dosages(2g citrulline, 2g BA, 15g leucine, 40g hydro whey). If i calculate in the real food that i normaly consume, it comes up to around 6 to 8$(to roughly match the calories from the protocolā€¦).
Spending 16$ per workout is crazy for me, maybe if i lived in the United States. Especially when itā€™s not 16$ but at least 25$ā€¦ So thatā€™s like 4 times more than iā€™m paying right now, and i have a quite extensive para-workout supplement list.

Now, understand me, i have no doubts that this kind of protocol works, and that it works great. Hell, i read coach Thibaudeauā€™s work religiously, and really grasp what he is saying, so iā€™m asking for help, since im unable to get Biotest supps, whatā€™s the next best thing in his, or in your opinion? :slight_smile:

Thanks for the feedback, Bill.

245

Yes, if I were in your situation on the costs, especially with your costs for anything from the US being so much higher in Europe, I would do the same. When the cost is that high, it would take a pretty high income, combined with high personal priority, before that would start being reasonable.

Iā€™m sure that Coach Thibaudeau can give a better answer than I can. One of the main reasons I limit my comment on such things is that thereā€™s an enormous difference between having tried different protocols and materials on a large number of athletes over time, versus personal experience even if combined with some other knowledge.

It sounds to me as if you are doing very well with your own planning and methods already. If you can obtain in Europe at reasonable cost a casein hydrolysate that from provided information is mostly di and tri peptides and is low average molecular weight, while that is not the whole story such a product is not going to be bad, and you could look at using that in place of the whey hydrolysate at those points where Anaconda is being used in the protocols. Not the same thing, but closer than using the whey hydrolysate.

246

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
If you can obtain in Europe at reasonable cost a casein hydrolysate that from provided information is mostly di and tri peptides and is low average molecular weight, while that is not the whole story such a product is not going to be bad, and you could look at using that in place of the whey hydrolysate at those points where Anaconda is being used in the protocols. Not the same thing, but closer than using the whey hydrolysate.[/quote]

Bill, being in a similar position I can access WH but not CH, and certainly not Anaconda. In your opinion, is the WH still a valid option for protein pulsing/para-workout nutrition or am I wasting money and as well sticking with whey isolate, concentrate - which is obviously far cheaper?

Many thanks

JB

247

[quote]JamesBrawn007 wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
If you can obtain in Europe at reasonable cost a casein hydrolysate that from provided information is mostly di and tri peptides and is low average molecular weight, while that is not the whole story such a product is not going to be bad, and you could look at using that in place of the whey hydrolysate at those points where Anaconda is being used in the protocols. Not the same thing, but closer than using the whey hydrolysate.

Bill, being in a similar position I can access WH but not CH, and certainly not Anaconda. In your opinion, is the WH still a valid option for protein pulsing/para-workout nutrition or am I wasting money and as well sticking with whey isolate, concentrate - which is obviously far cheaper?

Many thanks

JB[/quote]

I received conflicting info on this. At first I assumed that WH would be good enough since itā€™s speed of absorption is pretty darn fast. And guys like Dave Barr and Tim Z said that it would probably be fine.

However recent discussions with protein experts lead me to believe that this might not be the case. Iā€™ll explore the situation a bit further.

What says ye Bill?

248

Coach

As I donā€™t have access to Biotest products, Iā€™me working on this homemade para workout (BTW I have good feelings). Can you give me your opinion?

7:00 Pulse 1

Leucine 5 rgams

  • 10
    whey Isolate/Hydrolysate (blend 80:20) - 35 grams

7.40 Meal 1

400 whites
+30
1 cup Berries
1 orange

10.10 Pulse 2

Leucine

  • 10
    Whey Isolate/Hydrolysate (blend 80:20) - 35 grams

Para-W

10.40 0.2 BCAA
10.55 50 Rice malt, 3 Tsp Glycerol, 20 Pumpkin seeds butter, 25 Whey Isolate/Hydrolysate
11.10 2 pedyalite, 5 creatine, 3 Tsp Glycerol, 7 Leucine, 2 beta alanine (IĆ¢??ll include citrulline)
11.25 50 Quadricarbs, 25 whey Isolate/Hydrolysate
11.35 Start workout
During, 50 Quadricarbs, 25 whey Isolate/Hydrolysate

12.45 Finish Workout (total carbs 170 grams. This is low carb para-w)

13.45 Pulse 3

Leucine

  • 10
    Whey Isolate/Hydrolysate (blend 80:20) - 35 grams

14.15 Meal 2

200 Red meat
Veggies
10 macadamia oil
5 Fish oil

Thanks

249

Is there any real need to add Leucine to Surge Recovery, as it already contains 4 g./serving. I presently mix 1 serving Surge Recovery and drink 1/2 about 15 min. before my workout and sip the other half during the first 1/2 of my workout. I then use a serving of Power Drive and 3 caps Rhodiola post work out, waiting 1 hour before consuming another serving (2 scoops)of Surge Recovery with 5 g. creatine, then 1/2-1 hour later a solid meal.

Would an added 5 g. of Leucine to the Surge Recovery drinks be of any benefit? Also, how does my protocol look (I also use Beta-alanine, in powered form,in divided doses thougout the dayā€“4 g.)

Thanks,

Crowbar

P.S. How important is the use of hydrolyzed Casein peri-workout? Should I get some and add it to my 2 Surge Recovery drinks?

250

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Pergam_X wrote:

as a student in Europe, i can only dream of spending 16$ per workout, even 10$ is out of this world, let alone buy Biotest products.(think double price of what anyone in USA is paying because of shipping and customs)

Several have, understandably, posted concerns about cost.

No one though seems to have pointed out or be figuring that it has to be, or should be, looked at in terms of change in cost. Because your cost for regular meals is reduced and that ought to be subtracted out.

There have been some threads here where people posted how much they spent on food and Iā€™ve been astounded by how low the figures sometimes were. But others spent about what I do. For the most part, for me modest meals of ā€œreal foodā€ average at least $3 each, whether as a frozen meal heated in the oven, or some meat plus some vegetables or fruits, etc. They can easily average more.

At bare minimum myself I save at least $6 via the calories replaced by specific workout nutrition, probably $9.

Now if someone eats rice, beans, and not much of the cheapest meat they can get, then of course the food would be a lot less than that, and this would be less of a factor.

So rather than figuring $X and being astounded by the number, figure $X minus however much money one would be spending on the meals now replaced.

On your costs for shipping and customs, yes, that has to be awful. :frowning:

[/quote]

In my experience liquid doesnā€™t replace much food wise.

251

Coach,

You have said before that if your pre and during workout nutrition is correct, then the post workout period is not an anabolic time for a shake. How long from a during workout Surge Recovery would this cover?

If I had my SR an hour before I was finished, would then a post WO shake be appropriate?

252

[quote]dheeel wrote:
dheeel wrote:
Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
Dan Thompson wrote:

  1. How long of a training session is this designed for? I currently train for 45-60 minutes and am assuming that this protocol is designed for such, but want to make sure.

  2. I currently eat about 300-400 more calories outside of the para-workout window (and about 100-200 more immediately afterward) on my priority days (legs and back). Would you recommend keeping these excess non-workout calories when using this protocol, or will the extra Surge Recovery and Whey take care of it?

Thank you for your time,

DT

  1. Normally 60 - 75 minutes

  2. It will take care of it.

Hi CT

For sessions which last 90-120 minutes how would adjust the protocol?

Thanks

I should state clearly when I say adjust I mean how would I ADD to it for a longer duration 90-120 min. Iā€™m extra SWF and / or FINIbar would be added during the workout - does that sound right Coach?[/quote]

Hi CT - any thoughts or tips on this?

Thanks

253

Hi CT, my father absolutely refuses to listen to me when I tell him that soy has phyto-estrogenic components in it and should be avoided. He recently began taking a supplement with respect to his para-workout nutrition that contains soy peptides. If he were to follow his protocol, he would be ingesting around 400 mg of these soy peptides per day. Does this sound like a large amount with regard to itā€™s impact on his test/estrogen or do you believe that the impact of that dose will be negligible?

254

Hey Coach,

Please donā€™t get pissed at me asking this question, as I am not trying to further bastardize your protocol, rather want to understand if this will work or not and why:

If no carbs were the case, will using GLUTAMINE serve a similar purpose to spiking insulin para-workout and hence shuttle protein into the muscles?

I guess something like this:

10-: 20g Glutamine + 20g Hydrolysed Casein
During workout: 20g Glutamine + 20g Hydrolysed Casein
60+: 30g Hydrolysed Casein + glycine etc

Guess I may simply give it a try and assess. Right now I am simply using this whilst on low carbs and pulsing at other times:

45mins-: 30g BCAA
During workout: 20g Hydrolysed Casein
60+: 30g Hydrolysed Casein + 10g glycine + 5 g tauring +5g creatine

Thanks,
GJ

255

Hey Coach,

How would you modify the protocol if strength and fat loss are the clients goals?

256

Hello Coach, as you already are doing it, how many of each product do you need for 1 month if using Protocal 1, 3 times a week ?

As i have got so much help, the least i can do is buy some stuff especially if it helps with more muscle growth.

Thanks.

257

Hey Coach,

What do you recommend before and after basketball or HIIT/Interval session?

258

Also, the old method was to take 2 scoops Surge Recovery immediately after workout. If that is all we have to work with for now, would you recommend 1 scoop 10 min before and the rest during workout? Thanks

259

CT,

What are your thoughts on the new Curcumin supplement? Any advice as when to use it during the day?

260

Coach you previously recommended I keep the following protocol

.2g aminos -60
5g leucine -30
50g carb/25g isolate -20
100g carb/50gisolate pwo
50g carb/25g isolate 60 min after workout

my question is that i am out of the bcaa taken -60 and i may be wrong but i believe you said the bcaas werent necessary but i would continue to take them until they ran out. so should i just drop them or add something in its place like straight leucine? thanks